Cheated bracket = three turn?

Discussion in 'Moves In The Field' started by jjane45, Feb 15, 2011.

  1. jjane45

    jjane45 New Member

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    Hello all, I am really curious about a question here. To experienced eyes, in what circumstances can a RFI bracket (cheated with some edge issues) skated on a curve be mistaken for a RF? 3-turn?

    In this situation the observer is 4 feet from the skater on clean ice with unblocked view, the skater attempted the bracket about 3 times and those were called 3-turns. The skater is later told that "the difference between a bracket & a 3-turn can be as small as a change of edge", is this statement justified and would it cause a RFI bracket be identified as RF? 3-turn? Would the situation change if instead of RFI it was LFO?

    Your help is greatly appreciated!
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2011
  2. Sierra

    Sierra New Member

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    It's common to switch edge, which makes it a 3turn. A RFI bracket should stay on the RFI edge, exit on a RBO, and rotate to the right. If you switch edge, it would be a RFO 3turn. If you rotate the wrong way, then it would be a RFI 3turn since RFI 3turns rotate to the left. Did you rotate the wrong way?

    The diff between 3s and brackets is that 3s rotate into the curve and brackets counterrotate. The only way your RFI bracket could have been called as a RFI 3 would be if you stayed on the RFI edge and rotated the wrong way, since usually cheated brackets are cheated because they went to the wrong edge.
     
  3. jjane45

    jjane45 New Member

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    It was definitely confusing. If I am stating things really ignorant please correct me :)

    The bracket was turned in the correct direction and stayed on its intended curve. For it to be RFO 3-turn, wouldn't it end up on a different curve? Or only the very top of the turn mattered and then it cheated back to the correct curve?

    Guess I am very confused about how brackets are cheated.
     
  4. aster

    aster Member

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    Brackets and 3-turns both stay on the same curve. Both start and end on opposite edges. The only difference between the two turns is that brackets turn away from the circle, 3-turns turn into the circle. Here is a very good page for visualizing the difference between them.

    Edit: I see what you're asking now. If it's a cheated bracket, it does become a 3-turn. The 3-turn is on what was intended as the turn (cusp) of the bracket -- it is then a different direction (rotation) than an intentional 3-turn on the larger curve would be. The entire move would be (for intended RFI bracket): RFI inside edge, change to out RFO 3-turn, change to RBO edge.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2011
  5. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    Is it possible the turns didn't happen at the top of the circle? If you wait too long for the bracket turn for a RFI, you could end up on a RBI instead of RBO and then 'pull' your edge back. The turn itself would look like a 3turn, more than a bracket, though.
     
  6. jjane45

    jjane45 New Member

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    Actually a true RFI bracket is never on the same curve as a true RFO 3 turn, as the former goes from RFI to RBO, the latter from RFO to RBI. My question about "different curve after the turn" was bad.

    I meant to ask if this refers to the very cusp of the "bracket" and the seemingly RFI entry edge and RBO exit edge are irrelevant, hence making it a cheated bracket.

    Sorry again for the confusion. I am trying to sort through the arrows from aster's link.
     
  7. jjane45

    jjane45 New Member

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    I believe it turned at the top of the circle but can't claim the tracing was 100% symmetric. Is this how brackets are usually cheated? :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2011
  8. aster

    aster Member

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    Yes, a RFI bracket isn't on the same curve as a RFO 3-turn -- it's on the same curve as a RFI 3-turn. Essentially, these are the same turn in terms of edges, but the skater's body rotates in different directions to switch from forward to backward.

    Looking at the link -- imagine the turn at the top of the circle (the part where the bracket actually happens) gets larger. It's pretty easy to see in that drawing because the turn itself is pretty large and you can start to see where the change of edge would happen (in fact that drawing isn't the cleanest of brackets). In that case, the "turn" becomes a very small outside 3-turn (on an opposite circle to the one the bracket was intended to be on). If you're still having trouble seeing it, look at the bracket sideways (in this case, from the left -- turn your whole computer if need be), and see if that helps you see the 3-turn.
     
  9. Debbie S

    Debbie S Well-Known Member

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    Out of curiosity, is this something a judge told you, like in a comment on a test paper? If so, why don't you ask your/your child's coach? He/she saw the turns and is in the best position to explain the comment. It's hard for a bunch of people online who didn't see the turn to try to figure out what you're asking and give you the answer you are looking for.
     
  10. jjane45

    jjane45 New Member

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    Thank you Debbie S, it's a dispute with no witness. Not sure if the exact turn could be duplicated weeks later, and now I am really curious about the mechanics behind cheated and proper brackets. Thank you everyone for your help!!

    Following aster's tip I flipped the 3 turn and wow it is indeed very similar to the bracket's cusp, shape and arrows etc. Image here. So what qualifies the turn a proper bracket based on this? Reasonably small cusp = RFI bracket and larger cusp = cheated by doing an RFO3? Sorry again if I am not seeing the obvious...
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2011
  11. minx

    minx New Member

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    If I skated forward on my right foot on a flat and turned my body in a clockwise direction, and continued in a straight line the turn could be called either a RFI bracket or a RFO three turn. It's common to see test sheets say "brackets turned on flats".
     
  12. Debbie S

    Debbie S Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that's the key - in order for any turn to be valid, it has to be done on proper edges. If you are on the correct edge and the turn is done at the top of the lobe, then the correct shape of the turn will follow. There are body and free foot alignment issues which can prevent a skater from achieving the correct edge either before or after the turn, which a coach can point out and correct. And for some skaters, it just takes a while to really feel the edge and stay on it - need to really push and bend the ankle. It's best to focus on proper movement and execution and not on what various parts of the turn look like on the ice.

    Jjane, I'm not sure why you are so obsessed with this "dispute". I'm getting the impression the comment was made by someone other than a coach or a judge. In skating, there are many comments made by other skaters and parents and a lot of it isn't worth listening to. Focus on your child's own training and what her coaches say.
     
  13. jjane45

    jjane45 New Member

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    Taking it to the PM with Debbie S, it's part of an official complaint about many things, this actually being a minor point. My original assertion this is proven wrong as many of you graciously pointed out cheated brackets can indeed be 3s (RFO3, not RFI3), thank you very, very much.

    I do think cheated bracket is a topic worthy of discussion, especially hearing how frequent beginners commit this sin. Your thoughts on this question, assuming the turn was not on a flat?

    Thank you very much again!
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2011
  14. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    If a bracket and 3 turn are both done correctly on a circle, I don't see how they could be mistaken for each other!
     
  15. jjane45

    jjane45 New Member

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    From what I understand, the edges of RFI bracket were cheated such that at the very cusp a RFO three-turn happened. The body position is a possible clue, as well as the tracing.
     
  16. luenatic

    luenatic Well-Known Member

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    The body is a BIG give away. To do a proper bracket, one usually (if not always) enters the turn in a 'counter' position. I probably can spot that 100 ft away.
     
  17. Spazactaz

    Spazactaz New Member

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    judges are the WORST for saying this!!!!!!!!!!!

    unless you're changing BOTH edges in the turn (i've never seen even the worst skaters do this)...... a bracket CANNOT turn into a 3turn......

    if you're doing RFI....... you start on that edge, end up on RBO........ so say you changed to RFO..... then it would turn into a ROCKER. not a 3turn.
     
  18. vesperholly

    vesperholly Well-Known Member

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    If the skater starts out on RFI, then switches to RFO, does a turn that ends on an inside edge, then switches to an outside edge, that is indeed a cheated bracket turned into a 3-turn. I've seen it with my own two eyes.
     
  19. Spazactaz

    Spazactaz New Member

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    yes that is true... but i never see that happen even with people learning brackets on the first day. and ESPECIALLY when they are taking a test which requires brackets..... it's usually that first edge leading in (worst on fwd outside brackets.......) that they switch the edge, but it's pretty easy to maintain the 2nd curve so brackets almost always turn into rockers... barely anyone seems to realize this though lol.
     
  20. jjane45

    jjane45 New Member

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    Sorry my opening post was about a group lesson coach first teaching brackets, the incident itself is not important anymore though.

    Thank you very much for bringing up the discussion of rocker vs. 3 turn. How will body positions differ in that case?
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2011
  21. Doubletoe

    Doubletoe Well-Known Member

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    On the entry to a bracket (assuming forward bracket), your back stays pressing against the circle and your free side shoulder stays pulled back the whole time; you never release it. If you're doing a forward outside bracket, your free hip is open and turned out on the entry as well. You will feel like you are aligned squarely over your pelvis, not really leaning to either side. I always feel like a crab walking sideways with my hips open, LOL.

    On a rocker (I'm specifically thinking forward outside rocker), your back is not pressing against the circle as you enter the turn. Your skating side shoulder presses against the circle, but you release your free side and let that shoulder (and hip and leg) come forward just before the turn (then pull them back as you exit the turn). On a rocker entry, you don't stay squared over your pelvis, you'll actually feel a lean over the skating side as you release the free side and enter the turn.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2011
  22. vesperholly

    vesperholly Well-Known Member

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    It's typically people for whom brackets are WAY out of their league. Like, they can barely do all the 3-turns, but they decide to try brackets.