Changing Pairs partners for better success with next partner

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Vash01, Apr 28, 2013.

  1. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Pairs partnerships seem to be more stable than ice dance partnerships (except in the USA, where they seem to split almost every other year). Sometimes the new pair is more successful than the previous pairs.

    Ina & Dungjen split, and Stiegler-Zimmerman split. Ina & Zimmerman had more success than either of the other teams (although I&D were fairly successful, winning US titles more than once)

    Rodnina-Ulanov split, after winning an OGM and 4 world titles. Rodnina & her next partner Zaitsev won 2 OGMs and 6 more world titles.

    Berezhnaya-Shliakov split and Petrova-Sikharulidze split. Berezhnaya-Sikharulidze had a lot more success (1 OGM, 2 world titles, 1 Oly silver) than the other two pairs. Petrova won a world title with her new partner Tikhanov.

    Volosozhar split from Morozov and had much greater success with Trankov

    Savchenko split from Morozov and had much greater success with Szolkowy

    Jamie Sale split from Jason (last name?) and had much greater success with next partner Pelletier (she had a long gap in between the two pairings however)

    Jeni Meno & Scott Wendland split, and Kuchiki & Sand split. Meno & Sand won a world silver and multiple US championships.

    Yuko Kavaguchi had at least 2 partners before she teamed up with Smirnov and had much bigger success.

    Some exceptions:

    After splitting from Mishkutenok, Artur Dmitriev won an OGM with Kazakova, but did not win a world title.

    Obertas & Sokolov split, after finishing 5th at worlds. Obertas & Slavnov did not do well at worlds (although they did win a silver at Europeans) and eventually split.

    Ulanov did not win a world title with his next partner.

    Mukhartova's career ended after splitting from Trankov

    Who will be the next 'new' pair to have greater success? May be Maisuradze & his new partner?
  2. fan

    fan Active Member

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    poor morozov...
  3. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    Purich/Tran: Only one world bronze medal for Takahashi/Tran. If Purich/Tran are able to grow together (and if the Canadian pair scene whittles itself down a bit post-Sochi), they could have solid success.
    alilou and (deleted member) like this.
  4. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Really. Both his pairs partners won world championships with other partners. It must be particularly tougher with Volosozhar since they were a couple off ice.
  5. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    Give him credit, though, as they both developed well with him and he retired to give Volosozhar the chance to skate with a better skater.
  6. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I would say Obertas was actually more successful with Slavnov. She finished 8th at Worlds with Sokolov in 2003, and her top 5 finish came in 2005 with Slavnov, in addition to the European silver and more GP medals. She wasn't with Sokolov very long though, and 4th at GPF in their second season was very impressive.

    Sale & Pelletier are another example of a pair who came together fast. Pelletier was 6th at Canadian Nationals with another partner in 1998, and was fourth in the world with Sale by 2000, and World Champions by 2001.

    Also, Duhamel stopped skating with Craig Buntin and then went on to win a bronze with Eric Radford in 2013 (they don't call them "interchangeable Canadian pairs" for nothin!).

    As a rule, it's way easier to do this in pairs than ice dance. The only good example in dance I can recall is Krylova leaving Federov for Ovsiannikov.
  7. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    Chock/Bates perhaps?
  8. lulu

    lulu New Member

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    Would Navka & Kostomarov be another exception to the rule? She certainly had far greater success with Kostomarov than with either of her former partners.
  9. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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    Oh lulu... now you've just reminded that Queen Navka skated together with Nikolai Morozov before teaming up with Kostomarov.
    Kostomarov also skated with Anna Semenovich.
  10. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I personally was thinking more along the lines of pair teams who had podium success with their new partners quickly when I wrote that, but yes, N&K are a good example of having great success with a new partner. Chock/Bates certainly seem to be on a path to the podium, and they are already more successful than Samuelson/Bates or Chock/Zuerlein in terms of their Nationals and Worlds placements.
  11. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    Dylan Moscovitch stopped skating with his sister Kyra, and teamed up with Kirsten Moore-Towers to finish 4th in the world, although no world medal yet.
  12. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    And Navka was with Samuel Gezolian
  13. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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    Navka had some success with Gezolian. I think they once finished 5th at worlds and 4th at euros.

    Mandy Woetzel experienced some success with Axel Rauschenbach (a medal at euros and olympic top 10 place). They splited in 92 and Mandy went to skate with Ingo Steuer. In their first season together they won gold at nationals, Skate Canada and the Nations Cup, having won the silver medal at euros and worlds.
  14. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    Isn't that exactly what you'd expect - pairs or dance partners would only switch in order to make a better pairing and get better results? If they didn't then you'd be asking why the hell did they switch partners?
  15. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    A change of partner does not always result in a better result. It is an experiment, and a calculated risk. Some pairs split due to other reasons- e.g. incompatibility.
  16. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    Yes that's right - skaters change partners and sometimes get better results, and sometimes they don't. And.....:confused: i guess I just don't understand what we're meant to be discussing in this thread.
  17. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Nobody forced you to participate in the discussion. Those who want to, are participating.
  18. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Tons of Canadian examples:

    David Pelletier had a variety of partners, his previous best being with Allison Gaylor who he won a Canadian silver and went to Worlds with; and with the late Julie Laporte who he won Canadian juniors and was 5th at World juniors with. Of course nowhere near the success with any of them he would have with Jamie Sale.

    Jamie Sales best partnership before David was Jason Turner who she won a Canadian bronze and went to the Olympics and Worlds with.

    Kris Wirtz made it to the Olympics with Sherry Ball in 1992. However he had much more success with his new partner starting next season of Kristy Sargeant.

    Jean Michel Bombardier made it to the Worlds with Stacey Ball in 1993. However he overall achieved more with Michelle Menzies, his new partnership starting in 92-93.

    Michelle Menzies finished 4th a bunch of times in a row with Kevin Wheeler, but won 2 Canadian titles and went to several Worlds with Jean Michel Bombardier.

    Dylan Moscovitch in her new partnership vs his almost same height sister obviously.

    Eric Radford was with Rachel Kirkland for a number of years, but is now doing far better with Megan Duhamel.

    Megan Duhamel made it to 2 Worlds with veteran Craig Buntin, but is now doing much better with Eric Radford.

    Valerie Marcoux was top 5 at Canadians twice with Bruno Marcotte, but had far more success with Craig Buntin.
  19. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I think overall Ina & Dungen were a bigger force than Ina & Zimmerman. I&Z winning a Worlds medal while I&D didnt is basically a fluke stat. I&Z were lucky the 2002 Worlds field was so weak and the event was so poorly skated. I&D would have won silver at the 98 Worlds (or maybe even gold if B&S were pushed to 4th in the SP where they fell, and they won the SP), and could have continued longer and probably would have medalled at the 99 Worlds too. I&Z only finally became a second tier type top team, at best on par with what I&D were for several years, in their final season of 2001-2002. Ina & Dungen won their U.S titles beating and battling Meno & Sand. Ina & Zimmerman had no competition at U.S Nationals, and still even lost a National title to the Hartsells. At best I would say the two pairs were equal.
  20. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    More often than not you have to cut your teeth on someone before you get really good with another partner who was also with someone else. It's not a new concept, some successes happen more quickly than others.
  21. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I&D could have gone a long way, had they stayed together.
  22. Andofanatic

    Andofanatic Member

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    Jamie Sale had no talent. She only did well since David is such a great pairs skater.
  23. JasperBoy

    JasperBoy Well-Known Member

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    Just for the record, Kyra Moscovich had to stop skating for health reasons. She developed scoliosis. Plus she did grow to be as tall as Dylan.
  24. DaiKozOda

    DaiKozOda Active Member

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    René Novotny (Czech Republic): he skated internationally with two other girls before teaming up with Radka Kovarikova. Novotny and Kovarikova won the world pairs title in 1995.
  25. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I think Peggy Schwatz (Germany) had more than one pairs partners and IIRC she won a world bronze with each. The second was Mirko Mueller. I can't remember the name of the first one, but they skated pairs in the 1980s.
  26. lulu

    lulu New Member

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    Another example, sorry if it was mentioned upthread, I didn't see it; Lloyd Eisler. Had success with Katherine Matousek (they won the bronze medal at the 1985 Worlds), but achieved greater success with Isabelle Brasseur (five world medals-including one title, and two Olympic bronze medals).
  27. unchat123

    unchat123 New Member

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    Elena Bechke: had some modest successes with Valeri Kornienko (won 1984 Skate Canada, got the European bronze in 1986) but he was 20 years older than her and she did not look comfortable with him at all. (And I find their pairing quite creepy, to be honest). I don't know why they split, though (apart from the fact that he was getting too old to compete by 1987?) She then started skating with Petrov, who is 2 years younger than her. This partnership proved much better for her, both on the ice and off.

    I wonder if Moskvina deliberately paired Elena with someone younger to help her with her confidence and nerves?
  28. lulu

    lulu New Member

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    Wow 20 years older than her? That's got to be some sort of record.
  29. unchat123

    unchat123 New Member

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    If wikipedia is to be trusted, he's 21 years older than her! He was born in 1945 and she in 1966. He probably holds the record for the oldest amateur figure skater in that case, too!
  30. lulu

    lulu New Member

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    FWIW: The Russian version of Wikipedia also lists his birth year as 1945.
  31. dorianhotel

    dorianhotel Member

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    Why did Jamie leave Jason Turner. I liked them as a team and I thought they had great potential.
  32. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    You don't have to be defensive. Pairs is my favourite discipline and I enjpoy taking part in discussions about it. I asked a genuine question about what you intended to be discussed in this thread because I was confused.
  33. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    She only won a bornze with Mueller. With Alexander Koenig she never won a medal, but missed a huge shot to at the 89 Worlds where they were 3rd in the short and would have easily won either silver or bronze in the field that year with a strong long program. That team never had another shot after that. With Mueller her only shot came at weak 98 Worlds and they took it and she finally got her long awaited World medal.
  34. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for this information. I remember her skate with Koenig at the 1989 worlds. They had a total meltdown. Amazingly, overall they placed higher than a clean (and difficult) skate by Yamaguchi-Galindo. Even if they had skated relatively clean, I am not sure they would have beaten Bechke & Petrov (they too had a few mistakes but not major ones).
  35. Rob

    Rob Beach Bum

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    This is all about switching with both on the senior level? Not junior or between junior and seniors. Like Anissina/Averbukh.
  36. Habs

    Habs Well-Known Member

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    Harsh, and not true. She may not be well-liked, but to say she had no talent is completely absurd.

    Rumours at the time were he wasn't willing to put in the extra work to strength train. Their lifts could be very scary, due in part to his lack of upper body strength, and :sekret: told me Jamie didn't always feel safe in the lifts.
    IIRC, Jason Turner didn't skate competitively after his split with Jamie.
    spikydurian and (deleted member) like this.
  37. PeterG

    PeterG Argle-Bargle-ist

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    Thank you. I wish people could learn to separate their feelings about certain skaters from the reality of their abilities.