Changes to Base Values, Under-rotations, and Levels - ISU Comm. 1611

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by HisWeirness, May 6, 2010.

  1. HisWeirness

    HisWeirness Yay, new board!

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    ISU Communication 1611 changes the Singles and Pairs scale of values, levels of difficulty, and guidelines for marking the grade of execution (GOE) for the upcoming season (I assume).

    There is a lot to digest here, with changes to base values, under-rotation rules, levels, GOE, etc. Here are some posts copied over from the ISU proposals thread where this communication was first discussed.

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  2. HisWeirness

    HisWeirness Yay, new board!

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    Key:
    Jump: new base value, old base value (change in value)

    Single jumps: no changes in base value.

    GOE (+++, ++, +, -, --, ---)
    New: (0.6, 0.4, 0.2, -0.1, -0.2, -0.3)
    Old: (1.0, 0.6, 0.3, -0.1, -0.2, -0.3)


    Axel + Doubles
    Base Values
    1A: 1.1, 0.8 (+0.3)
    2T: 1.4, 1.3 (+0.1)
    2S: 1.4, 1.3 (+0.1)
    2Lo: 1.8, 1.5 (+0.3)
    2F: 1.8, 1.7 (+0.1)
    2Lz: 2.1, 1.9 (+0.2)

    GOE (+++, ++, +, -, --, ---)
    Axel
    New: (0.6, 0.4, 0.2, -0.2, -0.4, -0.6)
    Old: (1.5, 1.0, 0.5, -0.2, -0.4, -0.5)

    Double Toeloop and Salchow
    New: (0.6, 0.4, 0.2, -0.2, -0.4, -0.6)
    Old: (1.5, 1.0, 0.5, -0.3, -0.6, -1.0)

    Double Loop, Flip, Lutz
    New: (0.9, 0.6, 0.3, -0.3, -0.6, -0.9)
    Old: (1.5, 1.0, 0.5, -0.3, -0.6, -1.0)


    Double Axel
    Base value
    2A: 3.3, 3.5 (-0.2)

    GOE (+++, ++, +, -, --, ---)
    New: (1.5, 1.0, 0.5, -0.5, -1.0, -1.5)
    Old: (3.0, 2.0, 1.0, -0.8, -1.6, -2.5)


    Triples (toe through axel)
    Base Values
    3T: 4.1, 4.0 (+0.1)
    3S: 4.2, 4.5 (-0.3)
    3Lo: 5.1, 5.0 (+0.1)
    3F: 5.3, 5.5 (-0.2)
    3Lz: 6.0, 6.0 (no change)
    3A: 8.5, 8.2 (+0.3)

    GOE (+++, ++, +, -, --, ---)
    Triple toeloop through lutz
    New: (2.1, 1.4, 0.7, -0.7, -1.4, -2.1)
    Old: (3.0, 2.0, 1.0, -1.0, -2.0, -3.0)

    Triple Axel
    New: (3.0, 2.0, 1.0, -1.0, -2.0, -3.0)
    Old: (3.0, 2.0, 1.0, -1.4, -2.8, -4.2)


    Quads
    Base Values
    4T: 10.3, 9.8 (+0.5)
    4S: 10.5, 10.3 (+0.2)

    GOE (+++, ++, +, -, --, ---)
    New: (3.0, 2.0, 1.0, -1.0, -2.0, -3.0)
    Old: (3.0, 2.0, 1.0, -1.6, -3.2, -4.8)

    Overall, GOE has been reduced in both directions (fewer + AND - GOE points).

    The "new" values and guidelines are from Communication 1611 (May 2010).
    The "old" values or guidelines are from Communication 1494 (April 2008, SOV table), 1504 (June 2008, change to 2A negative GOE), and 1557 (April 2009, Updated GOE guidelines).
    Last edited: May 6, 2010
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  3. Polymer Bob

    Polymer Bob New Member

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    Finally. I always thought an underrotated triple should be worth more than a clean double. :D
  4. MikiAndoFan#1

    MikiAndoFan#1 Well-Known Member

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    I wonder why the 2A, 3S and 3F will be worth less.

    :confused:

    Anyways, I'm liking some of these changes!

    :cheer:
  5. millyskate

    millyskate Well-Known Member

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    Overall, I like these changes. Very, very glad to see the double axel getting less credit. It was not really challenging anyone and getting a big reward.
  6. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    For the 3S and 3F, I assume it's to make their values closer to those of 3T and 3Lo, respectively, which have been slightly raised.

    For singles and now for doubles, the base values for those sets of takeoffs are identical.

    One effect might be that skaters who repeated 3F and didn't bother with 3Lo primarily because of the difference in base mark will now have less reason to avoid the loop.

    If they still don't include it in their programs, we can assume that's because they can't do it, consistently or at all.

    Well, it's challenging for entry-level juniors, most novices and below. But it's still worth a lot more than double lutz, so those who can do it successfully will still get rewarded.
  7. purple skates

    purple skates Shadow dancing

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    Wheeee!!! :cheer2:

    I love that the axel is getting some point lurve. Makes a big different at the US adult gold level.
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  8. reckless

    reckless Well-Known Member

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    But should that be the case? An underrotated triple toe with -1 GOE would score 2.17. A perfect double toe (+3 GOE) would score 2.0. An underrotated 3Lz with -3 GOE gets the same score as the 2Lz base value. And an underrotated 3Lz with -2 GOE will get a 2.8, while a perfect 2Lz with +3 GOE would only get a 3.0. It seems like there is little reward for doing less difficult skills perfectly. Moreover, diminishing the impact of GOE basically means that how skills are performed will not make as much difference in the competition; instead, high base values and good PCS will control.

    I'm curious how these new point values would have affected the Olympics scoring this year.
  9. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    I think GOE has been playing too big a factor recently. So much that competitions can be won by racking up GOE points. The new rules are taking base values of jumps into more consideration, which balances things out a bit. And I don't think the execution of a double can be compared to the execution of a triple jump. Just because a skater executes good doubles doesn't mean they are capable of executing good triples.
  10. purple skates

    purple skates Shadow dancing

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    What is a choreo spiral? Has the spiral sequence in singles been ditched?
  11. MR-FAN

    MR-FAN Kostner Softie

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    I am soo happy with many of the changes to the base value of jumps. the 2 things that irk me is that they reduce the value of the 3flip (WHAT??? so those who never bothered to learn it will have even less motivation to do so... A flip is hard and shouldn't be only 0.2 points higher than the loop. I also wish they would address how they count combination jumps already to reward difficult combos (and sequences). adding the 2 values together doesn not a good system make!

    In terms of ladies, the rule changes are very good news to Mao and Miki, and not so good for Kim. She won't be getting those crazy high GOEs anymore, her lack of a loop will hurt more, and her 3 double axels won't count for as much. Joannie and Laura shouldn't be too affected by the rules, except I wouldn't be surprised if Joannie decides to repeat the loop instead of the salchow (And now I don't see Laura ever going for the 3-flip. she has a good layout as it is)
  12. HisWeirness

    HisWeirness Yay, new board!

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    SINGLES and PAIRS

    Moves
    This communication introduces two "new" elements, the choreo step sequence and the choreo spirals (definitions of these are in the ISU proposals). These are elements (with base value and GOE) only in the free skate under the new proposals. In the Ladies SP any spiral done is counted towards the Transistions PCS score.

    Choreo Step Seq. (ChSt) - This is the second step sequence done by a Senior Man in a Free Skate
    Base value = 2.0
    GOE (3.0, 2.0, 1.0, -0.5, -1.0, -1.5)

    Choreo Spirals (ChSp) - This is the spiral sequence done by a Senior Lady or Senior/Junior Pair in a Free Skate
    Base value = 2.0
    GOE (3.0, 2.0, 1.0, -0.5, -1.0, -1.5)

    Step sequences are now indicated on the protocols without the -Sq, so you get Sl2, Ci2, and Se2 for straight line, circular, and serpentine step sequences (called level 2 in this example).

    The points subtracted for -3 GOE for Level 1 and 2 steps have changed from -1.0 to -0.9.

    Spins
    The base values for singles spins have not changed. The points subtracted for -3 GOE for spins have changed from -1.0 to -0.9.

    PAIRS ONLY

    Lifts
    The points subtracted for -3 GOE for Group 1 and 2 lifts have changed from -1.0 to -0.9.
    The points added for +3 GOE for Group 1 and 2 lifts have changed from +1.0 to +0.9.

    GOE for all levels of Group 5 Axel and Reverse Lassos has changed to: GOE (2.1, 1.4, 0.7, -0.7, -1.4, -2.1).
    Levels 3 and 4 used to have GOE of (3.0, 2.0, 1.0, -0.7, -1.4, -2.0) and Levels 1 and 2 used to be (2.0, 1.4, 0.7, -0.7, -1.4, -2.0)

    Twist Lifts
    Base values have gone down slightly for Levels 2-4 double and triple twists. Base values increase for quad twists.

    Throws
    Single throws worth 0.1 less in base value.
    Axel and 2T and 2S throws worth slightly more. No change in base value for the other double throws or the triple/quad throws.
    Some GOE increases for double and triples here too, but I am getting :yawn:

    Death Spirals
    +3 and -3 GOE increases to 2.1 points instead of 2.0 points.

    Introduction of the "Pivot Figure" (PiF) :confused:. Base value of 2.2 and GOE spread the same as death spirals (2.1, 1.4, 0.7, -0.7, -1.4, -2.1).

    Pair Spins
    The points subtracted for -3 GOE have changed from -1.0 to -0.9.
    Last edited: May 6, 2010
  13. MikiAndoFan#1

    MikiAndoFan#1 Well-Known Member

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    Wow, so many changes. What's the difference between choreo steps and step sequence?
  14. MR-FAN

    MR-FAN Kostner Softie

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    What's a pivot figure?
  15. CantALoop

    CantALoop Well-Known Member

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    (deleted)
    Last edited: May 6, 2010
  16. ThePurestSport

    ThePurestSport New Member

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    the real question: what will UR bashers like myself find to bi*** about now. :D

    Seriously the << rule is a great change. I am a bit suprised "<" applies all the way down to 1/2 UR. Many falls will be receiving 70 percent base. I wonder if falls will need to be addressed with an "automatic <<" provision for falls (like the "automatic GEO-3" rule). But that's a minor nit. I like the direction COP is taking on this, and certainly won't miss the "shock value" of a clean skate recieving an impossibly crap TES.

    This is the most humorous change. (ie. down to 3.3 ..again) I guess when it was changed to 3.5 a few years ago, nobody anticipated three- and four-2A programs.

    3.3 base + big GEO reduction = far fewer 2A-heavy programs from now on.
  17. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    Agree with TPS, this proposal on underrotations addresses a whole lot of the issues, and decreasing the value for a 2A will help. For the ladies, it will make doing the 3A even more of a difference given the differential between a 2A and a 3A.
  18. natsukie325

    natsukie325 New Member

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    Is this communication 1611 already decided or just a proposal which will be discussed at the congress in June?
  19. HisWeirness

    HisWeirness Yay, new board!

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    GOE and jump under-rotations and downgrades

    Mandatory negative GOE when:
    Jump downgraded (<<), reduction of -2 to -3
    stepping out of landing in a jump, reduction of -2 to -3 (used to be -2)
    GOE not restricted to negative when:
    jump is "lacking rotation (no sign)," reduction of -1
    jump is under-rotated (<), reduction of -1 to -2
    Also:
    No more !, just "e"

    and
    :p I think this is the Ziggy rule.
  20. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    And some will still receive full base mark.

    They'll also all receive -3 GOE and a fall deduction.

    So the scoring difference between a jump with a fall that was fully rotated and a jump with a fall that was not quite 180 degrees underrotated will be 30% of the base mark.

    And then falls on jumps that were short by more than 180 will be worth even less (i.e., negative net points after the fall deduction in most cases).

    Why should it? We do still want to distinguish between falls on jumps that were fully rotated and those that weren't even close, right? So then the question is what to do about those that were somewhere in between. Why not score them somewhere in between?


    But that's a minor nit. I like the direction COP is taking on this, and certainly won't miss the "shock value" of a clean skate recieving an impossibly crap TES.


    This is the most humorous change. (ie. down to 3.3 ..again) I guess when it was changed to 3.5 a few years ago, nobody anticipated three- and four-2A programs.

    3.3 base + big GEO reduction = far fewer 2A-heavy programs from now on.[/QUOTE]
  21. HisWeirness

    HisWeirness Yay, new board!

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    I think 1611 is already decided for the 2010-11 season and beyond. Looking at the ISU Congress Proposals (1609) I found this proposal from the French federation:
    So it looks like the ISU members (federations) do not get to vote on changes to the scale of values under the current rules. :confused:

    Right now the rules just let the ISU directly issue the Scale of Values without going through the proposal and decision process involved in changing Technical Rules.
    Last edited: May 7, 2010
  22. jane80

    jane80 New Member

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    This Change of the MAO, by the MAO, for the MAO(3A, 3LO, etc.)

    Congrats to MAO(Japan) :respec:
    Last edited: May 7, 2010
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  23. RunnersHigh

    RunnersHigh Active Member

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    This is a whole NEW sport!
    BTW, players still put on the skates? :scream:
  24. Sparks

    Sparks Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, Hisweirness! you rock my world! :D
    Seeing it broken down helps people like me who cannot stomach all the new info in one huge dose.

    I'd like to think the new "underrotated" guidelines should be the Sparks Rule. I have been saying this forevah! :p
  25. RunnersHigh

    RunnersHigh Active Member

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    In an article from Sports Navi of Japan, "ISU announced rule changes."

    And it read "Good for Mao and Dai."
  26. RunnersHigh

    RunnersHigh Active Member

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    Don't forget Miki!!!!
    Now, it's Miki's era to come. Her 4S. ;)
  27. tarotx

    tarotx Well-Known Member

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    This helps Mao depending on what they do with her jumps. Nearly everyone could be called under rotated.
  28. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    This rule could benefit a lot of skaters. Strict and inconsistent UR calls are not good for anyone, including Yuna. Lol. I still remember how so many people got mad at the tech panel "unfairly" downgrading her 3-3 in the fall. :hat1:
  29. LilJen

    LilJen Well-Known Member

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    Hm. I don't know if I like the smaller GOE values. I would MUCH rather see elements done high quality than eked out. Now those that are done very, very well won't be rewarded as nicely. Although I guess that balances out the dropping of a step sequence (if indeed all these changes are in fact happening).
  30. Polymer Bob

    Polymer Bob New Member

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    Not quite. That would be a rule that says Mao can so a triple axel instead of a double.
  31. bek

    bek Guest

    But people can still get GOE points just not as much as before. And I think its a good thing because it was just way to easy for the judges to pad their favorites scores. Not to mention the double axel GOE really needed to be lowered. Everyone at that level should be able to do a high quality double axel. And it was ridiculous that a high quality double axel with +2 would be getting half of its value back, whereas a high quality triple axel with +2 would be getting no where near half its value back.

    I think its a really good thing that they are starting to recognize that a high quality quad or triple axel should be worth more GOE points than an easier triple/double axel.

    My only issue is I don't like the idea of falls and stuff being penalized less to be quite frank. IF they are going to have those rules ,they need to start arguing that messy programs need to be punished more in PCS.

    Also while I support the idea of Mao being allowed to do her triple axel in the short. However, I will say that I really don't think 1.1 bonus is enough of a reward for combinations. And I also think that 3/3s should be able to get the same kind of GOE that a triple axel or a quad can get-at least for women.

    Plus, a lot of women are struggling with the 3lutz, so if they are going to raise the triple axel-again maybe the 3lutz should be raised a bit more.
  32. FSUSF

    FSUSF New Member

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    Congrats to the Japanese skater! :respec:
  33. RunnersHigh

    RunnersHigh Active Member

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    Hmm.. It may be benefit for a lot of skaters but, I think the most beneficiary of the rule is Mao, 5-time-3A-DGed in ISU International competitions during 2009-2010.
  34. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    Actually, if Mao's 3A gets the underrotation, she will be rewarded GOE according to the jump that it was intended. This means she will be hit with greater negative GOE than she is getting now, because now the GOE for a downgraded 3A goes by a 2A standard. The end result will give her little more than a point than she is getting now. She will be getting some benefit but not so much more than now. Also, don't you think a rule that benefits many even if you think it benefits one the most is a good one? Majority rules in most cases. :D
  35. bek

    bek Guest

    I actually think a lot of these rules are quite fair. The triple axel should be worth more and if a lady can take advantage of having a 3/3 in the short, another lady should be able to take advantage of having a 3axel. (only fair)

    However, I do think that a lady with a 3lutz/3toe should be able to get high level GOE on that theoritically. That's an incredibly difficult combination for women and I'd like to see 3/3s treated a bit higher on GOE than just regular triples.

    However, I think a lot of these rules aren't really about Mao. I think they were concerned about the downgrades and it was clear the callers at the Olympics was going easy on most besides Flatt. I also think it was clear the double axel thing was getting very much abused. Even with the men you had someone like Lambiel who could theoratically make up a lot of points on GOE doing a double axel in the short, instead of a triple axel.

    A lot of these rules changes truly needed to happen.
  36. RunnersHigh

    RunnersHigh Active Member

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    Do you guys remember the poll "When will Yuna Kim's record score(228.56) be broken"?

    Now, no one has chance to close the record.. :cold:
  37. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I love it. I find out about these things sooner on FSU than from my own skating organisations.

    I hope they have updated the IJS software.

    ETA - no they have not updated the software yet.
    Last edited: May 7, 2010
  38. RunnersHigh

    RunnersHigh Active Member

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    Don't get me wrong.
    I don't have any objection to the rule changes. (And I don't give any shit on it.) I just said my opinion on whom the most beneficiary is, IMO.

    And one more! Rule change is one thing and fair or unfair is another in Figure Skating. Isn't it?
  39. Spazactaz

    Spazactaz New Member

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    Wow, it's going to be harder to get level 4 for all spins now. COE only counted once, as well as DV?? In addition to the bwd entry still.
  40. sequinsgalore

    sequinsgalore Member

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    Yay! They deleted "difficult variation of lady's position" as a feature for death spirals, and clarified that both man and lady must be in low position for level features! No more ugly catch-foot spirals.

    Again, does anyone know what a Pivot Figure is? The base value is lower than a level1 death spiral, so it must be easy, right?

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