Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Andofanatic, Mar 18, 2013.
What a ridiculous poll.
:shelves my "K. Chen, Sotskova, Sakhanovich, who had best and poorest career" poll in embarrassed disgust:
I do believe Ms falling_dance is not being quite truthful.
Sotskova, K. Chen
Anyway, the correct answer is too obvious for me to bother polling the Trash Can dwellers.
I voted -Lysacek best career, Joubert worst
I voted like lala looking at it as best career, not who is necessarily the best skater. And sorry, but Chan's record, especially with the controversy over this year's World gold, just doesn't hold up as well as Lysacek's (or Lambiel's for that matter).
I am the furthest thing from a Chan fan, and I even adore Evan Lysacek compared to Chan, LOL! However all the controversy does not take away medals, they will still forever be recorded in history, they will never be taken away (barring something out of the blue like a doping scandal) and Chan has the most medals, gold medals, and impressive collection of medals of this list by a long ways. I fail to see how controversy has any impact on your "record", maybe your reputation which would come into play how great a skater or champion you are, but not your record. To think Lysacek's Olympic Gold or Lambiel's Olympic silver elevate their careers above Chan or make up for their other massive deficits by comparision, is to exagerrated the value of Olympic medals to a height they dont deserve (eg- Olympic Gold would have to be worth atleast 3 World titles to elevate Evan's career above Chan's, and an Olympic silver worth atleast 2 World titles to elevate Lambiel's career above Chan's). Given that you also seem to think Kim with 2 Olympic Golds would still have a lesser career to Kwan and even Vinson Owen it seems you have flucuating standards on the value of those Olympic medals depending on the skater as well.
I second this. It's ridiculous to refer to any of these as having the "poorest" career when they all are so accomplished (and some are still competing!!).
Besides, as usual it will just devolve into "who I like best" poll.
I think David is the most logical. LOL. This poll has made me weary of high minded proclamations. I am happy for a dose of unbiased analysis. LOL. It is true that Chan had a chance for an Olympic medal on home territory, and he did not make it happen. Perhaps, though, he will follow in Evan's pattern and do better at his second Olympics. Any medal in Sochi could elevate his career above the lot.
1. Chan- 3 World titles above all others.
2. Lambiel- 2 World titles + Olympic silver above all remaining others
3. Takahashi- I was going to say Lysacek 3rd since Olympic Gold + World Gold > 1 World gold + Olympic bronze, but Takahashi has so many other great results while Lysacek is kind of empty outside his top couple results so I say Takahashi.
4. Lysacek- Olympic Gold + World gold atleast has to put him over Joubert.
5. Joubert- longevity, smongevity, the big wins just arent there. Same with Takahashi, but atleast he has an Olympic medal of some color to go with his World title.
Obviously Eva Lysacek had the best career of the bunch.
*Olympic Gold Medal winner 2010
*World Champion 2009
-tons of other GP,national, and World championship medals.
Someone told me Evan only went to worlds four times? Is this correct? meaning he medal in 3/4 appearances. I went to Wikipedia and it says the same thing!!!!!
His track record is:
Olympics: 1st. , 4th.
Worlds: 1st., 3rd., 3rd., 5th., (for some reason I remember him finishing 7th one time)
GPF: 1st., 3rd.
4cc: 1st.,1st.,2nd.,3rd.,3rd., 10th.
GPs: 1st 2x., 2nd. 6x, 3rd. 2x, 5th. 2x.
US Nats: 1st 2x., 2nd 2x, 3rd. 2x.
Ps: to put Chan in this category is unfair. He's still winning gold medals and is our future Olympic gold medalist. Unless something completely changes and the judges have a change of heart.
The poll results are funny. About the same # of people think Lambiel, Takahashi, and Lysacek had the best career, all less than Chan, and more than Joubert. Yet worst career Lysacek is by far the highest, with Joubert a distant 2nd. It seems there are some widely varied opinions on Evan's career and its value. The other funny thing is Chan isnt overwhelmingly winning the poll. Based purely on achievements, Chan has achieved way more than the others and his medal count is far above all the others, and should have 95% of the votes are more. So many people must be docking his career worth due to all his controversial wins and medals, and giving him less value for some of those.
It has definitely becoming funny. Is this a popularity contest?
Lambiel vs Lysacek- 2 Worlds + Olympic silver > Olympic Gold + World Gold, since 3 huge achievements is over 2, even if one of the 2 is the biggest. 2 Grand Prix final wins > 1 Grand Prix final win, and 3 European silvers competing against Plushenko, Joubert, Lindemann, Verner, and Brezina > only 2 U.S titles competing against only Weir and Abbott, less than Weir and Abbott have.
Lambiel vs Takahashi- 2 Worlds + Olympic silver > 1 Worlds + Olympic bronze
Lambiel vs Joubert- 2 Worlds + Olympic silver > 1 Worlds + no Olympic medal
Lambiel vs Chan- 2 uncontroversial Worlds + Olympic silver > only 1 legit Worlds
So I would say Lambiel for the best. Now comparing the rest:
Takahashi vs Chan- 1 legit Worlds + 1 robbed of Worlds + Olympic medal > only 1 legit Worlds
Takahashi vs Lysacek- Evan's only edge is a higher Olympic medal but Takahashi still has one, and Takahashi with his better Worlds resume, and better resume at every other event there is gets the edge.
Takahashi vs Joubert- I go with Takahashi since Joubert doesnt even have an Olympic medal and they are similar otherwise.
So Takahashi 2nd best career
Chan vs Lysacek- 3 World titles, even if 2 are diminished as they were blatant gifts, and all the other stats he has over Evan, is enough to overcome Evans Olympic Gold and only 1 World title.
Chan vs Joubert- Chan clearly the winner here too.
Chan 3rd best.
Lysacek vs Joubert- Lysacek's Olympic Gold vs Joubert's way better career everywhere else. Would go with Joubert I guess.
Joubert 4th best.
So best career: 1. Lambiel, 2. Takahashi, 3. Chen, 4. Joubert, 5. Lysacek
Best skater I would say though: 1. Takahashi, 2. Lambiel, 3. Joubert, 4. Chan, 5. Lysacek (just way behind 4th place here rather than only a bit behind like best career)
Best legacy in the sport: 1. Lambiel, 2. Takahashi, 3. Joubert, 4. Lysacek, 5. Chan (due to all the controversy being his biggest legacy)
Am I seeing the poll results. How can anyone note vote for Chan amongst this group. Is that some joke, only 30% think he had best career. The other guys careers are a joke compared to his. It doesnt matter if you hate Chan the most, you think he is the most overrated skater, if you even think he is the worst skater (although you have to be stupid given his amazing basics), but thinking he had a less great CAREER than anyone on this list!?!?
Lysacek- Unless an Olympic Gold is worth atleast 3 World titles he doesnt come close.
Lambiel- Less World titles than Chan, no Olympic Gold, and couldnt even win Europeans, or barely win any events his career outside his 2 Worlds.
Takahashi- Only 1 Worlds and no Olympic Gold.
Joubert- Same as Takahashi.
Chan is the best career even his biggest hater should admit by alot.
How is Lysacek's career better than Chan's. Only 2 Worlds or Olympic Golds vs 3 for Chan, two World bronze vs two World silver, grand prix wins is something like 10 to 2 at this point, grand final wins is more for Chan too . Evan's career is nothing on Chan's, regardless who you think is the better skater, you must be an Evan fan.
Joubert never had a memorable performance. All he has is medals. His skating has no artistry at all and fugly crouchy jumps and weak spins. He had charisma and big jumps and was a good competitor, the only reasons he had success, along with French federation politics with Gaigerhuet at the helm during his success. Gaigerhuet is not there anymore and looks his results are now bad even when he skates good.
Joubert has amazing charisma and that translates very well on the ice. He is a 6.0 skater caught in a COP world. His artistry is different from Chans. Now I am a big chan fan but I got to give Joubert his due. Joubert really drew me into his program when I saw him live at worlds.
OK maybe Joubert is better than I said. However how is anyone picking Chan as not the best career. I dont see what case there is for anyone else. Even Evan with his Olympic Gold is so far behind in every other way he has no case.
I know this is a typo but thank you for making me smile on a bad day!
After Sochi I would say:
1. Lambiel- 2 uncontroversial World titles, Olympic silver, 2 uncontroversial grand prix final titles
2. Chan- 3 World titles but 2 of them huge controversies so diminished in value, 1 Olympic silver
3. Takahashi- 1 World title but 3 total top 2 medals at worlds, 1 wuzrobbed of a 2nd gold, Olympic bronze. 1 gold and 4 top 2 medals at Grand Prix final
4. Joubert- 1 World title but 4 top 2 medals at worlds, no Olympic medal. Large mix of European titles and medals.
5. Lysacek- 1 World title, 1 slightly controversial Olympic Gold, and 1 Grand Prix final title. However no other top 2 medals at any of the events, so last place overall.
This poor is poorly set up.
Ah, battle of the middle achievers.
I don't think Lysacek is behind BJou, even if I don't like his skating at all. Though he does have to be known as the quad less olympic champ forever, and it's not like he makes up for it with memorable or special artistry (a la Buttle's world title).
Objectively if you just count medals, I think Chan would come out ahead but there's just too many fishy wins in his career and A LOT of poor performances at high level comps.
I am split on Joubert vs Lysacek. You have to give Joubert some success for his great Europeans success. Heck look at his record at Europeans vs Lambiel for instance, way superior. Lysacek achieved less at his own Nationals than Joubert at Europeans, and the field is about 10 times weaker than Europeans where Joubert competed against Plushenko, Lambiel, Verner, and Lindemann annually. Lysacek competed against a group of men who amassed a combined 1 world medal at his Nationals and still cant match Joubert's European record so safe to say if he was European his Europeans record would pale compared to Joubert and even Lambiel. Plus Joubert has 3 world silvers in addition to his World gold. Evan outside his Olympic gold and World gold has nothing better than a bronze medal.
That's true but I think the stakes are exponentially bigger with worlds and Olympics that regional wins are hard to compare. I do give Joubert credit for having the toughest competition. He's one of the few who managed to beat Plushenko in his prime (and not on technicality) but he is overall still a pretty inconsistent competitor.
Lysacek is just an extremely lucky person. He managed to peak when the tech in the sport was at its lowest point in over a decade and he took advantage of the weakened field. But in terms of accomplishment, holding it together at the Olympics and winning over a legend is a big career achievement.
Fair point. I still think the Europeans is a pretty big event though and you still have to give Joubert some credit for his amazing record though. While the others besides Lambiel didnt get to compete there we can guarantee 110% someone like Lysacek wouldnt have even close to the same Europeans record when he couldnt even do as well at his own Nationals as Brian at Europeans. Meanwhile we do know Lambiel's European record and it is way below Joubert's as well. I almost think I should bump Lambiel down closer to Brian just because of that in fact.
As for Worlds and Olympics, even there Joubert has 4 times finished with gold or silver vs only 2 or Evan, and stepped to the podium 6 times vs 4 for Evan. Much better record at the grand prix final and grand prixs too. Basically the only thing Evan has over Brian is the Olympic Gold but that one thing is a huge thing, the biggest thing in the sport. So it comes down to how much value you give to the Olympic Gold.
Joubert definitely had longevity on his side but honestly, I'm not sure if Euros was really THAT much tougher than 4C which Lysacek has done well in. Certainly up until 2007-ish, FS was pretty European dominant (and yes, winning over Plushenko was almost impossible) but after that a lot of the momentum shifted to Japan and North America.
Please, the only 4CC competition Evan succeeded in vs any competition was 2007 when he beat Buttle. 2005 it was a scab field (yes Tak was there but he was a nothing in international skating at that point), and 2008 he came 3rd behind Takahashi and Buttle. Remember this was not an event like Europeans all the best non European skaters went to, if they did you would have a point, but this isnt an event that can be compared with Europeans given its history. Not even the ladies which in theory should have a tougher field (but never has, apart from 2009) can be compared. Even in 2008 the Europeans had Verner, Lambiel, and Joubert. Anyway I compare Nationals since Evan didnt even skate at 4CCs annually, as didnt anyone else, so Nationals is a fairer competition and Europeans over the years had far tougher competition than U.S Nationals.
Come to think of it Takahashi doesnt have anything over Joubert outside the Olympic bronze either, and that is less valuable than the Olympic Gold Evan has so is an even weaker case for him to be ahead based only upon. While Tak's Worlds and Grand Prix final, and grand prix record are all better than Evan's, they are all inferior to Joubert's. So I would probably rank Joubert 3rd, Takahsahi 4th, and Lysacek 5th come to think of it.
Again, it comes down to longevity though. Joubert competed for such a long period that of course he has more medals than most people. However he really didn't maintain a high level throughout his career and really teetered off by the end, while never doing well at the biggest event (Olympics).
What is Takahashi doing now? Not mantaining a high level, that is for sure. He didnt even qualify for a final Olympics, and needed a gift from his federation to compete. Atleast Joubert made the Olympics on his own merits (although yeah probably wouldnt have either if he were Japanese). Lambiel just quit before he got to that stage. Lysacek also, and Chan is probably doing that now.
Joubert didnt win any important medals (even hardly any of his European medals) after 2010 when he was 25. So I dont think it is fair to say he won more medals by staying longer or punish him for a decline in results at an advanced age. The rest, except Takahashi, all quit around 25, so had just as many oportunities as a sense considering Joubert didnt do much past that stage either; and also didnt put themselves on the line and give themselves the chance to see declining results at that stage.
Joubert won a medal at every Worlds from 2004-2010 except one, then came 4th at the 2011 and 2012 Worlds a very old skater. Didnt do well at Olympics, but that is the only knock against him.