Chan: I have shown I can handle pressure by twice defending the world title

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Maofan7, May 9, 2013.

Do multiple falls/mistakes in a program show that a skater can handle pressure?

Poll closed Jun 9, 2013.
  1. Yes

    15 vote(s)
    11.5%
  2. No

    108 vote(s)
    83.1%
  3. Don't Know

    7 vote(s)
    5.4%
  1. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    Of course you can. The Trash Can cannot survive without such polls. We can include the no. of falls for each skater.
    Let's include the ladies, pairs and ice dancing. Oops... nope not ice dancing. No jumps so no falls, only mis-steps. :saint:
     
  2. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    Neither do I.:p

    But please tell me, who has spent "majority of your program on your butt"?:confused: I've never seen any skaters, not even Denis Ten who had had 5 falls in one program had spent "majority" of his program on his butt.:shuffle:
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2013
  3. falling_dance

    falling_dance D. Murakami's Newest Fan

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    Bambi and Thumper. :saint: ETA: Just Thumper, actually.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2013
  4. PairSk8Fan

    PairSk8Fan Banned Member

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    "I have shown I can handle pressure by twice defending the world title."

    This quote by Chan has ZERO credibility. The spectators don't believe it, his colleagues won't believe it, and I think even HE won't truly believe it.

    So, not only has Chan demonstrated the ability to be a "femine hygeine product used on a summer's evening and the bag it came in," but now he is also demonstrating the ability to spew nonsense to the media that has absolutely no credibility.

    He may have medals, but he is not a champion. MARK THESE WORDS TODAY --- "In 10 -15 years, NO ONE WILL REMEMBER PATRICK CHAN AS A 'GREAT' IN THE SPORT OF FIGURE SKATING. HE AND HIS CAREER AND ACCOMPLISHMENTS WILL HAVE BEEN REDUCED TO A MERE MEMORY..."

    THAT is what PChan seems to fear most .... never being considered to be one of the "greats."

    SorryBoutIt.
     
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  5. alilou

    alilou Crazy Stalker Lady

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    Gosh, I guess shouting at us must make you right :p
     
  6. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    I am not going to argue whether he did/did not deserve to win.

    But how did he handle pressure either time? he fell all over the ice.

    In a "defending your world championship because you can handle pressure" scenario, I think of Kwan who won her 3rd in 2000 with a 7 triple program that included a 3/3 and then won again with a 7 triple program with a 3/3 in 2001-probably her two strongest skates technically at worlds ever. Plus at the time she was not the favorite going in, so she knew she had something to prove.

    Patrick has nice elements but I fail to see how he handled pressure.
     
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  7. Fandango

    Fandango New Member

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    Chan can't handle pressure, among many other things he can't. He is no Champion, never was, never will be. If he "wins" in public (Olympics 2014) the way he "won" Worlds, he's probably the final nail in the coffin of Olympic figure skating.
     
  8. numbers123

    numbers123 Well-Known Member

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    I think that is an overstatement. There are many components of figure skating in the Olympics that will be part of the equation - there has been questionable judging in the past, so if there is questionable judging in Sochi, I don't think that it will lead to the demise/discontinuation of skating in the Olympics
     
  9. PeterG

    PeterG Hanyuflated

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    Maybe Patrick Chan keeps falling because of the 14 gold medals around his neck.
     
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  10. karlon

    karlon New Member

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    Even if He wins in sochi, he will not have fewer mistakes than the other skaters, I do not even expect him to
    Skate close to clean in next season, and in olympics.
     
  11. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I think there are two questions being dealt with in this thread. Some people are focusing on the fact that he's won Worlds so therefore are concluding that he can handle pressure, while others are focusing on Chan's actual performances compared to his potential and are saying that despite his wins, he hasn't been able to perform the way he plans and are therefore concluding he can't handle pressure. IMO, the question of whether he deserved to win and whether he can handle pressure are two different questions.

    This is a more nuanced issue that most here are admitting. Chan was definitely able to handle the pressure in the SP, and in the LP, he landed beautiful quadruple combinations. However, either something is wonky with his technique, or his programs are full of content that he can't execute, or he fell under the pressure and choked in his LP. His skills are good enough to score high even with big mistakes, and other skaters haven't been able to capitalize on Chan's mistakes for one reason or another (even though there are cases to be made for Takahashi in 2012 and Ten in 2013).
     
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  12. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    There is more to life than being a 'great', sweetie. Wow.. you are a great mind-reader aren't you? YOu can tell what Chan fears not being a great? Hey, can you read some minds in what you have written here ..."femine hygeine product used on a summer's evening and the bag it came in"? Yep? Yeah you are absolutely great and correct ... it's the most poignant and literary genius statement you have ever written. You have a great future ahead of you.

    Wee, Chan is soooo powerful. He can put the final nail in the coffin of Olympic figure skating. I want him to put nails into some people's heads...:saint:
     
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  13. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    You are probably right. The media seems losing more and more credibilities.;)
     
  14. PairSk8Fan

    PairSk8Fan Banned Member

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    Well said and far less dramatic and provocative than my views on this matter.
     
  15. shady82

    shady82 Active Member

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    The fact that Chan won 2012 and 2013 shows that there is something very wrong with IJS. Under a proper scoring system, Chan should not have won any of these championships. In fact, he would probably have been at best 9th in the FP if rated under 6.0 (behind Ten, Hanyu, Fernandez, Mura, Aaron, Reynolds, Takahashi, and Joubert). In 2013, Chan didn't fall once - he made three major mistakes including two falls. If he fell once and won, maybe it's credible.
     
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  16. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Very true. Even for those who think he totally deserved to win in 2012 and 2013, that is almost irrelevant to the topic. In no way did what he did show how amazing he is at "handling pressure". I would love to see him in a situation like Kwan was in in both 2000 and 2001, needing to skate lights out perfectly with full out attack, and do her/his highest possible difficulty to even stand a chance at winning, and see how he would respond, if he even has that in him. Somehow I doubt we will even see that situation arise though.
     
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  17. PeterG

    PeterG Hanyuflated

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    Ninth place? Interesting. And what exactly are your credentials again?
     
  18. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    Psst.... look at the 'name'! Shady! (The beauty of English language).:p
     
  19. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

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    I didn't know that you need to have certain credentials to be allowed to have an opinion on FSU? :confused:
     
  20. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    Whilst one can have an opinion, does FSU also disallow opinions to be questioned?
     
  21. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I think there's a difference between questioning and opinion and requiring relevant qualifications to express an opinion, even if the latter is done jokingly. Most of us are not elite skaters, coaches or judges (there are of course exceptions), but I don't think it makes our opinions less worthy of expression.

    I would be curious to see the shady82's explanation of why Chan should have placed ninth in the FS, however, rather than stating this as though it is obvious.
     
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  22. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    No, but the post quoted above this one was uncalled for.
     
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  23. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    Oh come on Vash01, don't you have a 'sense of humour'? Or is 'sense of humour' reserved for targetting Patrick and his fans? If one think one has the right to dish out 'rubbish' be prepared to receive some in return.
     
  24. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    I'll jump in here with my two cents. (And this is not a "Chan bash." I've stated before that I like his skating and I'm holding to that.)

    Many fans like to point out that figure skating is more than just jumps and I agree with that. However, if you take jumps and spins out of the picture, you do not have singles skating. Therefore, my belief is that jumps and spins should make up the major part of the score and, yes, that would mean that falls should be severely punished, in a way that one cannot (and should not) win a competition with multiple falls (unless, of course, all of the other competitors perform even worse).

    That is all.
     
  25. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    :rofl: PeterG, you slay me. I think I love you.

    I hope you can appreciate the small irony re your signature line quote. IMHO, ISU judges are the ones who often have made “a mountain out of a molehill” in the way they have marked less than stellar performances by Patrick Chan.

    Aside from a few posters and perhaps excepting you too PeterG (as you generally tend to be a source of reason, sarcasm/ humor), maybe a whole lotta people wielding nails in this thread (as of now including me of course) need to take a step back, breathe and enjoy the off-season:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yRdDnrB5kM


    In regard to the thread topic, maybe Patrick is more succumbing to the pressure that his fans, the judges and he himself puts on himself to be perfect and to live up to the titles: Master SS God of the Universe, and Next Great Chanadian Hope. :p Tongue-in-cheek, laugh it off, don’t get excited, don’t get your buttons pushed …

    Patrick is seemingly a really nice young man who does not deserve to be caught up in this unending OTT drama. It’s not his fault … it’s just the result of strong emotions and passions coming down on various sides of the overall drama that is fs in the CoP/ men-must-have-quads-to-be-macho era. Maybe some of the increasingly strong negative reactions in Chan threads are occurring because fans don’t enjoy what is aptly perceived as unfairness in the judging. Patrick unwittingly and unintentionally plays into the drama sometimes with his comments. Maybe Patrick’s latest comments are a matter of him convincing himself he’ll be able to stay on his feet and rise to the ultimate occasion without the benefit of judges’ favoritism. It is a question whether he will ever be able to escape that burden.

    Ultimately neither Patrick nor any skater nor anyone should allow themselves to be defined by the opinions of others, not even that of the judges. There will always be someone out there outside of each and every one of us being judgmental. Patrick might be better served to look within and discover his own unique strength, his own identity, his own calm, his own conscience, his own focus, and let the outer chatter and blather fall away. Will he be able to throw off the chains and free himself? Above all, can he and we perhaps stop taking this whole OTT shebang/ sturm und drang and our opinions about it so intensely hard and self-identifying?

    To me the most interesting thing mentioned in the recent article is Patrick stating that he sent a letter to the ISU, likely apologizing for dissing WTT. He must be worried about backlash for his comments. Actually, Patrick is probably right re the fact that the scheduling of WTT is not beneficial for any of the skaters (although the scheduling does give those who didn’t do well at Worlds or who weren’t able to compete at Worlds a more immediate chance to redeem their season). In any case, Patrick’s words about WTT (not unlike Scott Moir’s caught on camera last year) were ill-timed and seemingly selfish. Also Patrick’s suggestion re starting a union is ill-timed pre-Olympic season, and more than a bit of pie-in-the-sky in the context of traditional status quo figure skating governed by TPTB. Perhaps sending a letter to the ISU was a wise move, but publicizing the fact maybe not so much. But again, so what …? Let’s enjoy the off-season. There will surely be enough pressure and gossipy judgments galore for every skater to ignore and overcome when the season of seasons begins.

    Oh, and Proustable, I thought your initial post in this thread was fairly apt and somewhat humorous, at least that's how I read it. And thanks for all your fun contributions Maofan7, even if this poll and/or its phrasing might be considered a bit of a pile-on. I know, I know, as aftershocks I too have had lots of harsh and some would deem unfair/ negative words to say about some of Patrick's wins, some of his fans, and some of his words... his career has been such a lightning rod. In the words of Doris Day: “What will be, will be. The future’s not ours to see.”

    Funny some of those speaking of dishing it out and taking it don’t seem to realize that slicing and dicing behind-the-scenes because your feelings are hurt is more of a cowardly maneuver. But then too, there comes to mind a bit of profound wisdom that Camilla Duchess of Cornwall reportedly imparted to her closest friends:
    "Don’t Complain, Don’t Explain." Hmmm … :duh: Hey Patrick, quite brilliant advice, eh?

    Can’t we all just get along, maybe go out to dinner together, joke, have fun and speak easy over a poutine?
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2013
  26. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    Hasn't 6.0 been proved "very wrong" so that it has been dumped?:shuffle:

    I very much doubt that Shady could explain his/her 9th place verdict well using 6.0.:p

    6.0 favored quad jumps more than IJS. Patrick has had one quad and one quad combo perfectly with 6 other triples including one 3A. Ten has had only one quad and also other 6 triples including two 3As. Under 6.0, UR was not called out and deducted as often and as closely as in IJS. Obviously Chan's technical level was superior to Ten in LP as well as in SP. With Chan went into the competition as two time World Champion, they were in different league especially under 6.0's reputational judging system. Under 6.0, I have no doubt that the placement would have been different. However, Ten might not be the one who'd have won this Championship even under that system. He might even have lost his silver place finish and be placed in bronze because he might have finished lower than Takahashi in SP. The reputation would have kept Hanyu and Takahashi higher than they were under IJS and would have kept Chan high enough maybe around podium level. One thing is for sure that Chan will never be dropped that much as Shady said to 9th place. He/She has just focused on falls and falls alone which was never all 6.0 just about. There were many examples of messier skating won over cleaner skating under 6.0.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2013
  27. shady82

    shady82 Active Member

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    In my opinion, IJS is no better than 6.0.

    I don't understand why my statement is shocking. Maybe not as low as 9th, but enough to drop him off the podium. The entire field skated exceptionally well. Ten and Hanyu were clearly better. Fernandez, Aaron, and Mura all skated well, and the overall quality of Chan's skating isn't so much better that it can make up for so many mistakes. Reynolds and Takahashi didn't skate their best, but they were by no means bad performances. Joubert also skated well (including two quads) but was dinged under IJS because of underrotations. 6.0 might take into account underrotations somewhat, but not to the same extent (which is the way it should be). Most of these skaters who finished below him under IJS also landed 1-2 clean quads in the LP, so that justification of Chan landing the quads does not make up for his mistakes either.

    The focus was not on falls. The overall quality of Chan's skating is the best, but it isn't that much better that it makes up for so many mistakes. If Chan had just one fall, maybe fist place is justifiable by 6.0 judges. And 6.0 isn't based THAT much on reputation, Ten's performance would still be enough to land him near the top in the SP.

    Chan's SP was outstanding and possibly the highlight of the entire event, I'll give him that.
     
  28. BreakfastClub

    BreakfastClub Active Member

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    I would quote the entire post. IJS is no better than 6.0... 6.0 would provide us with legitimately debatable results in close contests where really the pros/cons of each performance evened out. 6.0 also exposed cheating at the highest levels. IJS gives bizarre results where world class skaters with multiple splats beat negligibly less world class skaters who are clean with comparable or near-comparable technical content. IJS also makes it easy for a single judge to cheat (no more need to get 5 judges to collude) and masks it through anonymity. It's a draw between the two systems.

    Anyway, for the most part, a top skater splatting once was the kiss of death if his top competitors stood up, and multiple mistakes were usually the kiss of death. Here's an off the top of my head sampling of overwhelming favorites, with sterling reputations being dropped due to mistakes -

    Kurt Browning, 1992 Olympics - 4th SP, 6th FS after two mistake filled programs
    Kurt Browning, 1994 Olympics - fall on flip and a big axel pop, 12th in SP, apologizes to his country, gives a tearful interview
    Elvis Stojko, 1996 Worlds - dropped to 7th after a splat on his axel in the SP, really upset and ashamed at his performance, placed behind clean but clearly lesser skaters like Cousins and Millot
    Michelle Kwan 1997 Nationals - three significant mistakes in FS, loses title and is 3rd in FS behind Bobek
    Tara Lipinski, 1998 Nationals - reigning world champ plunged to 4th after a splat on her flip in the SP behind a clean Bobek and Kwiatkowski

    Patrick doesn't know how good he has it under the new magic of the PCS.... maybe that's why his head barely fits through the door and his foot is permanently jammed down his throat? ;) He's indeed a great great skater, but a 7th place after a single fall when all the other really freaking good skaters go clean might give him that dose of humility he sorely needs and the legitimacy this sport is sorely fighting to hang on to.
     
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  29. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    How could you be sure that Chan'd have been in 7th place for one single fall which was not a quad when there was a perfect example in 2002 Olympics SP where Plushenko fell on a quad combo but was placed in 4th place and later won Olympic silver medal?:p
     
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  30. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    Maybe or maybe not.

    Exactly how "exceptionally well" they were? If you don't count doubling or singling the jumps as error, then Ten and Fernandez could be said error free since they are the only skaters in the top 9 who did not receive a single nagetive GOE. But as I've said, Ten's tech content was not strong enough, and so wasn't Fernandaz who had one 4T and one 4S and other 5 triples including one 3A. 4 salchows (I know his 2S was intended to be 4S) in Fernandez's program indicated the level of his tech content.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2013