Caryn Kadavy and Jill Trenary- who did you prefer?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Vash01, Jun 16, 2013.

?

Caryn Kadavy or Jill Trenary (who did you prefer?)

Poll closed Sep 14, 2013.
  1. Caryn Kadavy

    48 vote(s)
    68.6%
  2. Jill Trenary

    11 vote(s)
    15.7%
  3. Didn't care for either one

    1 vote(s)
    1.4%
  4. Loved them both; can't choose

    10 vote(s)
    14.3%
  1. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    25,201
    Both Caryn Kadavy and Jill Trenary were artistic/stylistic skaters who were not particularly strong jumpers. Jill Trenary won a world title(1990)- thanks to Compulsory figures; Caryn's best finish was a world bronze in 1987, but she had much more success as a pro. She developed into something special, without the pressure of having to land difficult jumps. Jill's career almost ended (she had a few pro competition appearances) after her world title. She did not even compete at the 1991 worlds.

    Who did you like more? I loved Caryn Kadavy but I was lukewarm toward Jill Trenary- may be because she was competing against one of my most favorite skaters ever?

    Who did you prefer and why?
  2. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    25,201
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2013
  3. Dr.Siouxs

    Dr.Siouxs Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2007
    Messages:
    8,477
    For their time, they were both exceptionally strong jumpers. :rolleyes: Trenary did the elusive triple flip and Kadavy's loop still stands as one of the best ever.
  4. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2003
    Messages:
    2,501
    Aquanet sales were never the same once Caryn and Jill retired from competition.
    jamesy, LilJen, bardtoob and 3 others like this.
  5. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2007
    Messages:
    2,106
    I don't know much about either of their amateur careers, but I loved Caryn as a pro. The only performance I've seen of Jill's, from the 1990 Worlds, I hated.
  6. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2007
    Messages:
    2,106
    I just watched Jill's Ice Wars performance and I actually enjoyed it. She looked like a completely different skater than at the '90 worlds.
  7. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2004
    Messages:
    6,965
    I prefer Caryn to Jill. I think Jill had better support from the USFSA and Team Fassi though.

    Technically, they were evenly matched jump-wise: Trenary had the 3flip, 3toe and 3sal. Kadavy had the 3loop, 3toe and 3sal but I think Caryn was more consistent with her money jump (3loop) than Jill was with hers (3flip) and Caryn did a better job with jump combinations. Both were somewhat inconsistent. Perhaps it was a wash in the eyes of the judges and TPTB and they gravitated towards Jill. The clincher for me was Caryn's more graceful, balletic style while Jill seemed somewhat stiff in all her movements

    Jill wins 'Best Hair evuh'
  8. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2004
    Messages:
    9,816
    I don't think that's true. Caryn didn't help her cause by constantly doubling triples or falling on them. The US Nationals judges were ready to make her champion if only she had shown the mental toughness to be one. Caryn did leave the Fassi's camp later in her career because of the tension between her and Jill, so maybe she did in some way feel that Fassi preferred Jill over her.


    Jill's performances at the 96 Ice Wars were probably her best.

    Technical Program

    Artistic Program. Definitely very Chris Dean here. I don't think Jill was quite comfortable doing all of those knee bends...I would've like to see her go deeper into them.
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2013
  9. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,344
    Caryn. Jill had mediocre quality and inconsistent jumps, not very good spins, and not always enjoyable programs. Just not a champions calibre skater. Caryn was a champions caliber skater had she had a stronger mind.
  10. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2010
    Messages:
    3,726
    Trenary's World title was a travesty to be honest. Ito was so dominate in the SP and LP and still didn't win. Thank God that was the last year for figures. There was no better example of why they had to go then Worlds 1990.
  11. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,520
    This poll is going to be lopsided.
  12. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,344
    In my years on this forum it has always been evident to me Trenary was never a fan favorite here, and Kadavy is. Trenary is one of those like Sumners and Kerrigan and some others who might have been decently appreciated at their time (hard to tell as there was no internet then) but whose skating has not aged well. I would have been shocked at this poll going any other way. Still glad someone made it though as they both seem to be almost forgotten today, and it is nice a thread was made to atleast discuss them for people who like or appreciate one or both.
  13. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,385
    A shame I didn't see the results before voting. Because I've always liked Jill trenary's skating. I don't know why, but I liked watching her.
    But I voted for Caryn Kadavy, because she is one of my favorite skater in term of pure skating and elegance. And I loved her Loop out of nowhere ! ;)
  14. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2004
    Messages:
    9,816
    Some fans are upset that Trenary won the 90 World title. They should be upset that Midori didn't do her job in the school figures.

    What dates Trenary's skating is not really her skating itself, IMO, but the overly-sequined Loren Sheehan's costumes and the hair. Remember that Kristi also wore Lauren's outfits and that horrible bang thing with her hair on the front.
    jamesy and (deleted member) like this.
  15. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2006
    Messages:
    3,726
    Jill Trenary. I especially loved her when she worked hard to win Nationals again after winning the year before but being overshadowed by Kristi Yamaguchi. I always loved her LP that year, especially the one-footed axel and step sequences. And I loved the cheesy music she used. :D Jill deserved her World title. Both she and Midori skated under the rules of the day which included compulsory school figures. Jill beat Midori by a marathon mile in that portion of the competition.

    ^^^
    THIS!
  16. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,520
    What sort of argument is this? It sounds like you are just being contrary. :) I should add with this statement you sound oblivious to the fact that figures were about to be eliminated. Yes Midori bombed both figures, but when you look at the grace with which Midori accepted it and the energy she brought to the SP and FS, you should know why people scoff at the idea that Jill was the real winner.

    I give Jill credit for a reasonably strong FS. She did earn her title. It's hard to overlook that her costume and the Renee Roca choreography were the ugliest she ever had--before or after retirement. Scott Hamilton said it was a beautiful look, and enough is said by pointing that out.
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2013
  17. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2004
    Messages:
    6,965
    No. It was a legitimate win. Despite her superior technical skills, Ito failed in figures at that competition. There's no evidence of 'cheating' to hold Ito down. If anything, Ito as defending World Champ would've gotten a helping hand in Figures.
  18. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    25,201
    Interestingly, Kristi also bombed the figures at the 1990 worlds (Kristi was 9th, Midori was 10th in figures). Clearly it was time for the jumpers to progress and figures had to go away. Jill's win in 1990 was legit, but it was like Trixie Schuba beating Janet Lynn- legit win, but not a pleasing one to the majority.
  19. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,344
    Yes the 1990 Worlds proved enough 20% for figures couldnt last anymore. It would be one thing if Trenary won the World title based on her vast superiority to Ito in figures with a triple lutz in her 2nd placed long program, and with a good short with atleast the triple toe combo most others were doing. However to win with a double toe combination in the short, and mostly triple toes and triple salchows in the long (with one shaky triple flip as the high technical point), showed figures just couldnt last anymore.
    TheIronLady and (deleted member) like this.
  20. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    25,201
    I added one more program link to each - Caryn & Jill. I really liked Jill at the 1993 Ice wars, but that may have been the only time I did.

    I liked Caryn from the first time I saw her skate (on TV)- at the 1986 US nationals. Loved her natural grace, and she seemed to get better and better as a skater. Later I found out that her mother was a ballet dancer. Caryn had lovely balletic moves and musical interpretation. She was coaching some years ago. Is she not doing that anymore?

    It's a shame she could not skate the LP at the 1988 Olympics; she came down with a high fever.
  21. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,344
    I was glad Caryn came into her own as a pro and really had a very successful pro career, winning and placing in many competitions, and gaining the confidence to show off her many amazing qualities.

    I wonder how different her career might have been if she won the 86 U.S title. The title was there for her to win, even after Thomas's great skate. That she made several major errors and still took 3 judges off Thomas shows the judges were more than ready to give it to her, along with her short program victory. It really might have given her much more momentum the remainder of that quad.
  22. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2010
    Messages:
    1,784
    Caryn. Hands down. Nothing against Jill. I just really love watching Caryn.
  23. Simone411

    Simone411 aka IceSkate98

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2007
    Messages:
    7,147
    I always liked Caryn. I was trying to find a program of hers when she competed during one of the old pro competitions/shows, The Great Skate Debate. No luck, I'm afraid. I did find, however, this program during the 1999 Improv Ice. I've always loved how elegant she was/is, and it just seemed to be so natural with her.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0IqYku48jU
  24. BmcC102

    BmcC102 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2002
    Messages:
    542
    I proudly voted for Jill. Caryn is a bit overrated on skating forums, IMO. I think Jill was much more interesting. I loved her 1-foot axel/3 salchow combination, which she usually landed (especially when Peggy was the commentator; she'd always gear the audience up for it and Jill must have heard the build up and realized she couldn't miss 'Peggy's favorite' jump in the program :lol:).

    Although it was a little inconsistent, I loved her clean edge 2axel. I thought her 2flip with arm variation was very nice as well.

    I loved her Lauren Sheehan costumes (I thought they were perfectly fitting of 80s and 90s) and her big hair!

    I will say that Caryn's 3loop was a beauty. I agree with whoever said she hit her loop more than Jill hit her 3flip. I also agree that Jill probably was more consistent with her other jumps, however.
    skateboy and (deleted member) like this.
  25. NYScorp6

    NYScorp6 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2009
    Messages:
    55
    Jill was my first real figure skating crush. I always wanted her to do well and remember being so disapointed when injuries prevented her competing in 91/92 seasons. Once she retired Kristi was my girl.
  26. RobinA

    RobinA New Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2002
    Messages:
    794
    Jill by a mile. I loved the sequins, and the hair...almost everybody had that hair back then. I loved her skating, still do. Kadavy was OK, but never seemed to have the kind of extension in her body that I like to see. I was thrilled when Jill won Worlds. I was never an Ito fan, although I recognize her jumping ability and the fact that the Japanese press hounded her unmercifully.
  27. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    25,201
    What kind of extension do you like to see? I am curious. Caryn was one of the most balletic skaters, with perfect positions and the right amount of extensions (except when she did the catch foot/donut spin). Are you implying that Jill had more extension than Caryn?

    I don't have a problem with you liking Jill more; it's a matter of taste. It sounds like you don't like any of the skaters I like. :) and that too is a matter of taste, so I am OK with you not liking Ito (although she was never a part of this thread, you mentioned her, so I am responding to that).
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2013
  28. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,344
    I did feel badly for Jill in a sense in that I could tell she really BADLY wanted to get to the top and be a great champion, and she was always just on the cusp of it but never quite got there. That is different than Caryn who IMO had more opportunity to be a great champion and dominant skater, but simply didnt want it badly enough. Even her great skates like the 87 Worlds LP showed her weakness, she inexplicably bailed out of the last 2 jumps after skating perfectly until then, and she probably would have won atleast the silver over Thomas, and maybe even the gold over Witt, had she done them.

    Jill I think thought she was the next big thing in skating when she beat World Champion Debi Thomas (albeit an injured and subpar one) at the 87 Nationals. However the 87 Worlds was a huge crash down to earth. Then she had to wait her turn until Witt, Thomas, and Manley were gone; and with the protocal of skating then she really couldnt beat those women no matter how well she skated, or even if she had deserved to. Then she found the sport changing and figured being reduced and phased out, and suddenly people like not only Ito, but most worringly a string of younger Americans- Yamaguchi, Harding, even Kerrigan, were doing many more triple jumps than she had ever done, and it was too late in her career to realistically learn a whole new bunch of new triples and combinations. Her timing was basically off. While I wasnt a fan of her she probably had enough talent, and certainly enough work ethic and determation to reach the top, but she needed to have been born either a few years earlier or a few years later to really have that chance. As it was she kind of was a tweener between two eras, and did well to win a World title and 3 U.S titles amongst all that, while Kadavy who IMO was still the more talented skater overall easily, and who hypothetically came in around the right time in 85-86 wasnt a strong enough competitor to take her many opportunities to be a great champion.
  29. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    25,201
    IMO Caryn had confidence issues. I did not follow FS as closely as I do now, and there was no internet back then, so I am just guessing. I read somewhere that touring with Brian Boitano helped her a lot and then she started winning pro competitions. She was naturally artistic, and the pro competitions did not require that many triple jumps, which worked for her.
  30. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,441
    Apparently, Caryn's first ever appearance at U.S. Nationals at any level was in 1985 in senior ladies (where she won bronze). That must have been quite the learning curve in learning how to handle high-level competition after so many years not getting out of sectionals/regionals.
  31. Blair

    Blair New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2002
    Messages:
    103
    She's been referred to more than once as "Jill Treachery" hence why Caryn is doing so well :p

    Seriously though; that persona, hair, arm moves and costumes made Jill a gay icon. Love 'er!
    TheIronLady and (deleted member) like this.
  32. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2005
    Messages:
    360
    This. If Trenary had been contending in the Sumners era I think she would have been more successful. As it was she was never gonna beat Witt in her prime unless she bombed (which she never did), and then had to contend with the the huge changes in the 89-92 era in ladies skating technical prowess. That being said she still won a worlds over Ito in the last time figures were held in a worlds, so she still had a very good career. Kadavy more than made up for her amatuer disappointments and bad luck in the hey day of pro skating.
  33. medmusclega

    medmusclega New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2014
    Messages:
    1
    Caryn easily....who happens to be my fav skater of all time. I liked Jill, too. I agree with what most have said...Kadavy's 3loop was superior to Trenary's 3 flip; 3sow easily to Trenary; dead heat on the 3toe; Trenary was the better competitor overall...but both suffered with the stress of competition. Kadavy was just a natural and pure artistic skater...which is why I think most put her ahead in the "skating" department. But, Jill was a very good "taught" artistic skater and I thought her Bezic programs were very full and well done. I can't believe some what to strip Trenary of her World title...everyone competed under the rules of their day and Ito blew her figures in '90...her fault, not Jill's. Very sad for Caryn at 88 Olympics after great SP, and that she did not stay in to compete longer to see if she could overcome competitionitis. I agree that the US judges were willing to give her the title (winning two SP, including 88 over Trenary..sketchy combo, and Thomas...clean program) if she could have just handled the LP better. Pro careers....Kadavy found herself in this role...otherwise would have been a much forgotten skater today.
  34. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,565
    Has anyone posted Caryn's Olympic short program yet? It was exquisite and deserved so much better marks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57AXUFZ_Vho

    Although the sound of Peggy Fleming having an orgasm at the .20 mark has always disturbed me. :eek:
  35. Flying Camel

    Flying Camel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2007
    Messages:
    241
    I loved them both but I voted for Jill. I think Caryn was more of a ballerina on the ice, and Jill was the athlete. After the 88 Olympics Jill improved her artistry while working with Renee Roca. That 1990 program was one of my all time favorites. I loved Jill's signature 1 foot axel into the Salchow. Why doesn't anyone ever do that move now a days?

    I agree that Caryn came into her own as a professional. Skating some very nice numbers. I think she made a nice amount of money. I remember there was a lot of skating on TV after the Nancy/Tonya incident. Caryn was always competing and she did very well.

    I think they both had confidence issues.