Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by judgejudy27, Oct 29, 2010.
Wow, so much vitriol for a teenaged girl.
Erm were we watching the same programme? Her lutz is a work in progress but I thought her Flip looked perfectly fine and mule-kick-less. Her jumps looked better to me in general, with a wee bit more speed and height, sans 2A
I don't understand why you have to be so disparaging. She is trying! Improvements don't take place overnight; Joannie took 2 seasons to correct her lutz. I'm frankly astonished at the progress on her jumps, I thought she would never be able to correct them. She has also grown a lot; I didn't recognize her at all at NHK. It's going to take a while for her to get used to it.
I think we've seen the best of Caroline because there's a huge number of talented juniors both in the US as well as internationally, plus the current seniors. I hope she proves me otherwise though.
^ This quad is certainly going to be VERY interesting. The US has like a billion newcomers and 5 top senior ladies. Russia has its jumping beans. Japan is still holding strong with Miki, Asada, and Suzuki. And besides that everyone is working on their jump technique...
Don't forget Murakami and Imai, I've been very impressed with both so far.
tangerine dream, while others may not like the tone of your message, and it is certainly negative, I have to say I am glad you wrote this. I am afraid that what you see is also what the judges see. Artistry, flexibility, "wow moves," and most importantly the ability to engage the audience are all key to success.
That is not true.
Her jumps will never be good since she doesn't have any power in her legs. But she has improved on the mule kick. And at NHK, her 3Flip looked absolutely normal to me.
Oh really ............. Can you help me out with tonight's lottery numbers?
Hello, the USA had to send a B team to 2008 worlds due to age limits so no one could expect us to qualify 3 girls for 2009 worlds doing that.
Czisny is definitely to blame for costing the USA 3 spots for the 2010 Olympics. Was it to much to ask from her to finish top 8 when she went into the event as our champion? Obviously it was.
Well, lottery is a thing of equiprobability, every number as the same probability to appear. This is not the same with our body.
Sorry, but we all have qualities and flaws, Caroline has no power, that's a fact ! She can improve, but I don't think she will ever be good in term of power.
So, I can add : IMO, her jumps will never be good.
And really, if she can have good jumps, I'll be happy for her !
Wow only 2 people think Zhang will win a World title someday. That is very surprising.
I guess it's not so surprising at this point. I think there's a chance she may medal in the future, but becoming world champion is pushing it a little, because she will have to continue improving her jumps AND get back a lot of the qualities she seemed to have lost. But there's just so many young talents coming up. The competition is only going to get tougher.
I'm not so surprised. Most of the people who took the poll don't even think she'll make it to senior Worlds.
I don't understand why that's surprising. Caroline has so much to work on, and we all know how much younger talent she'll soon be up against. And even if Caroline did become a contender for the title, she'd still have to actually skate well enough to win. I wouldn't be unhappy if she accomplished it someday, but the idea is very far-fetched.
I voted for the "world team/top 10 at worlds" option - cause, I mean, hey, if it happened for BeBe, no reason it couldn't happen for CZhang too, right?
Well, Bebe seems totally different from Caroline. It is true that she was very inconsistent with her jumps, but when she did land them they were a thing of beauty. And her movement on the ice was fast, fluid, and beautiful.
Caroline is a way better skater than Bebe who is the very definition of a journeywomen. Caroline has never finished below Bebe at Nationals in any year which should put an end to any debate. Had Caroline been one year older Bebe's World spot in 2008 would have gone to Caroline. Caroline probably wont get the amazing luck Bebe did to have 3 higher ranked skaters age ineligible for Worlds one year at Nationals though, so she will need to make it entirely on her own merits.
Except at this year's Nationals (Liang 7th, Zhang 11th). Liang's overall speed has always been better than Zhang's.
Actually, the 2008 World team would have been Nagasu, Flatt and Wagner IF USFS had gone strictly by Nationals results (ETA: and Nagasu & Flatt also had been one year older ). Wagner was already age-eligible, BTW.
I disagree. They both had their on and off days, but Bebe was equally as impressive when on. Her jumps are quite nice when not popped. She is a very good spinner and she sells her choreography. Example: 2007 Nationals SP.
I think that Bebe's biggest issue was her inconsistency. If she was actually able to execute all of her planned jumps at Nationals, she would have deserved to medal. This was especially true before Nagasu, Wagner, and Zhang came to the scene.
If I were to judge a competition where both skated clean, I would easily put Bebe ahead of Caroline. When on, Bebe's jumps have more power and better technique than Caroline's jumps. Liang skates with more speed than Zhang too, as does just about everyone else. Zhang skates small and more internally; Liang skates larger and with more life and more open to the public. Bebe is known to show a lot more personality on the ice than Caroline. Does Zhang ever smile genuinely and give the appearance that she really enjoys skating? Every time I see her, she looks depressed or either really focused in on what she has to do and her expression really gets lost, and I had this impression of her even before her results really dropped. So, I would rate Liang as having better skating skills, better performance/execution, and better musical interpretation. A clean Bebe would also have the advantage on jumps and footwork easily. Caroline would have the spins of course, but that's really her only given advantage over Bebe, IMO.
For example, I have never seen Caroline Zhang perform with this level of confidence and quality: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-A_7_7UTKzk
The elements she achieves well in this LP are "first rate" as Dick Button would say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2ub6DhMvUs
Results aside, Bebe is a better skater than Caroline, no doubt, but I'd still prefer to watch Caroline. I like skaters who skate "internally" (Alissa falls in this category for me, too), and I'm not always a fan of skaters who are OTT expressive. Since the start of her career slump Caroline's artistic expression has been dreadful, but some of her performances before that (both competitive and exhibition) were really quite lovely. Even now, she has a natural elegance that makes her more compelling to watch than someone like, say, Rachael Flatt - both are slow and some would say dull, but I'd watch Caroline over Rachael any day, technique issues notwithstanding.
I totally disagree.
Liang had speed, attack, charisma and wonderful, intricate programs. Her spins and spirals were also top-notch. If only she could land her jumps (which were quite impressive when she did land them) she'd at least have several national medals.
mrinalini, I've been making this point about Caroline as well. Ever since she realized the limitations of her jump and stroking technique, she hasn't devoted as much effort into performing beautifully, which she was able to do before. That's one of the things that she needs to recover in order to make herself worth watching. Of course, this is incredibly hard because she is wrapped up in working on jumps, stroking, and hopefully spins.
Well, the SP in the first link is simply breathtaking. I've rarely seen SPs performed with such ardor. But the LP in the second link is a disappointment. She seems to be running out of energy and keeps popping her jumps. That's one thing I never did figure about Liang. How could someone whose jumps were picture perfect (great height and rotation) pop them so much of the time? I mean Liang was someone whose jump technique was both excellent and atrocious in the same program.
Well, don't you also think Czisny should have a top 10 worlds placement? But the highest Czisny ever placed at a Worlds was 11th... Interesting how we all say how talented Czisny is, but even Bebe has had a better Worlds placement than Czisny...
Well, there's no argument that Liang has been more consistent than Czisny for many years.
Back on topic......I think Caroline's career high was qualifying for (and almost medaling in) the GPF a few years back. I love her, and I could be very wrong, but I think her time as a top US lady has come and gone.