Canadian Pairs 2012

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by shutterbug, Jan 26, 2012.

  1. flowerpower

    flowerpower Well-Known Member

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    So you agree that MT-M should not have been considered for Worlds, since they were not a close third to D/W at Nats. And furthermore, it is a completely different situation from Ladies. Perhaps we are indeed in agreement. ;)
     
  2. shutterbug

    shutterbug Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think Kirsten & Dylan have any issues with who was chosen for the 4CC and World teams. The results from Canadians are almost always used. They know that. Someone tweeted Kirsten a message after Worlds saying that she & Dylan should have been sent instead of D/W. Her reply was that D/W beat them “fair and square”. Nerves really impacted the outcome of the event IMHO. All 3 of the medalists from the previous year were visibly stressed in the warm ups, and it in the end it came down to who managed their nerves the best. Kirsten at just 19 simply didn’t fare as well as the older girls. Even though MT/M are NOT my favorite team, I felt very sorry for her. Poor child genuinely looked like she was going to be ill. But managing nerves is part of the deal and she’ll learn from the experience.

    As far as how they would have fared at Worlds, no one can say for sure of course, but based on how strongly they were skating in practice at Canadians, they may very well have finished reasonably close to D/R, possibly in the 7th -8th range. They had solid programs and fairly high tech content with a 3T – 3T sequence, SBS 3S, and complex lifts. But this assumes that they would have kept their nerves in check, and there’s no way to know if that would have happened.
     
  3. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I don't think there was any question about that.

    I agree that given how SC does its team selection, yes. Under the current selection process, the only wuzrobbed scenario would have been at Canadian Nationals themselves, about which I have no opinion.

    My favorite Canadian pair is L/S, and what I think should happen might not be in their favor.

    I disagree with how SC does its team selection for Worlds. I don't think that one competition should be the lone basis for selection for all spots, if there is more than one. I agree with the USFS in automatically sending the National champion and also that the National champion should get first dibs on 4C's. I agree with USFS in having other, primarily international criteria on the list. I disagree with USFS in rarely using that other criteria, because they could quantify it in various ways.

    I think Skate Canada should look at international results, including scores and technical content, to select all but the first spot for Worlds. For 4C's, I think they should use it for the most compelling reason that season: as a skate-off (not including the National champion), to give skaters a chance to reach Top 24 SB/WS if they are not likely to do so, or, this season, perhaps to meet the minimum TES score for Worlds.

    While all four top pairs are capable of meeting the two TES minimum scores for Worlds, if in this past year there had been three spots, and the new minimums were in place, L/S, in two chances (Nebelhorn and Skate Canada) did not reach the SP minimum. D/R and M-T/M easily did in their GP's; D/W scored 28.X in both of theirs.

    With scores of 25.X and 26.X, L/S would easily have met the new Euro/4C's minimum (20). The question for the scenario is, should they get the contingent 3rd spot, based on whether they could earn the minimum at 4C's, which it turns out they did easily, or should M-T/M get the spot in January, since they met the Worlds requirements by Canadian Nationals? There was a less than a point between D/W earning 28 and not, and the scenario could have applied easily to them for the World #2 spot under the new minimums.

    It could take an injury, an unexpectedly bad season, or a difficult sophomore season to have a scenario like this going into London.

    I think if the National champion hasn't met the World minimums, which is possible, that SC should sent the skater to at least one Senior B to try to earn it before 4C's.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2012
  4. flowerpower

    flowerpower Well-Known Member

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    ^
    If the objective is to build the best Worlds team by considering, in a quantified and systematic way, selection criteria beyond the results of one competition (Nationals), why exempt the skater who happens to win that one competition from the assessment process? One rule for the person/team who wins on that day, and a different rule for everyone else sounds problematic from a fairness perspective, and from the perspective of building the best team.

    Your proposals are interesting. How would you suggest the selection criteria be weighted and combined?
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2012
  5. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I think that winning the National championship should mean a reward internationally, if that skater meets the age requirements. As much as USFS and SC claim that their national judges' decisions are independent, I don't believe that there isn't some consideration of reputation involved, especially when it comes to PCS, that already skews the results. the only exception would be if there is someone who is injured and is so much stronger, in a way that can be quantified. For example, if Rochette competed in GP in 2013 and had to skip 2014 Nationals for illness or relatively non-serious injury -- i.e., on which would preclude being prepared properly for Olympics/Worlds -- and National champion hasn't gotten within 20 points of her (for example) -- I'm sure there's an algorithm that could assign a single spot based on relative strength.

    It doesn't have to be that way, and the National championship could be considered its own reward, but the weighting should be based on an algorithm, not politiks.

    As far as weighting, I haven't thought it out completely, but I would start with looking at both the difference in scores at Nationals and at the range of scores in international competition and basing the weighting on how far apart the scores are, especially when recent international scores are a lot higher than Nationals scores. For example, a 3- or a 5-point difference in different international competition -- Skate America vs. Skate Canada -- would be weighted less than a 3- to 5- point difference at the same competition and much less than a 10- or at 15-point difference. On the technical side, I would compare base difficulty to how much under or over base the skater/team earned, and extrapolate the up- and down-sides of the differences in technical content. I'd want to take trends into consideration, and that August-September results are less meaningful than November-December results in terms of program and technical readiness.

    On the downside, if the overall data shows a 10% bump at Nationals over international competition, then I'd look at international scores that were more than 10% less.

    The issue in weighing international results is that a skater might miss the Fall due to injury or be a comeback or breakout skater without international results. If the only score for a skater is the Nationals score, there's not much to weight, and the answer might be to reduce the score by Nationals "bump" (or increase it, if the Nationals judges/tech panels are much harder/stricter, according to all of the international vs. national score data).
     
  6. flowerpower

    flowerpower Well-Known Member

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    If you ever decide to work this out in more detail, it would be very interesting to discuss.

    My gut feel, though, is that the fairness of such a system would always be questioned because people would not agree on the weighting factors and the algorithm to be applied. Not sure it would be worth a fed's time and $$ to go down that road. Simple systems, even when they aren't ideal (e.g. go with Nationals results, except in rare situations) often have an intuitive appeal and receive greater support.
     
  7. Cant Skate

    Cant Skate Member

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    The entry list for BC Summer skate is up...not much going on in terms of pairs skating. Only two pre novice teams and new Novice team Digness/Thiessen.
     
  8. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    The Wirtzes are bringing their teams (Moore-Towers/Moscovitch and Steele/Schultz in Senior; Brittany Jones/Ian Beharry, Mary Orr/Anthony Furiano, and Shalena Rau/Phelan Simpson in Junior) again to Indy Challenge, August 3-5 - link to the event thread in Kiss and Cry: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=84192
    Other Canadian pairs include Lawrence/Swiegers, Purdy/Marinaro, and the junior team of Dylan Conway/Dustin Sherriff-Clayton (N2), who are coached by Monica Lockie and Bryce Davison.
     
  9. Daniskates93

    Daniskates93 Active Member

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  10. scs

    scs Member

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    Thanks for sharing the link to the photos!
     
  11. shutterbug

    shutterbug Well-Known Member

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    Very nice! :) Will you be shooting any of the summer competitions?

    Very small pairs field at Thornhill this year. :( Lawrence/Swiegers are the lone entrants in senior. Only 3 teams in junior, Conway/Sheriff-Clayton, Bell/Sylvester, and the new team of Julia Plechko & Alexander Sheldrick. Novice entrants are Elizabeth Swenor & Rocky Swenor and Renata Wong & Henry Su.

    Conway/Sheriff-Clayton will also be at Skate Detroit.
     
  12. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    As usual Danielle some very beautiful pictures - you have a real eye.
     
  13. Daniskates93

    Daniskates93 Active Member

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    Thank you so much everyone!

    I will be at Skate Detroit (working on getting accreditation, they're reluctant to give it) but I'll probably take pictures from the stands if not allowed on the judges side.
    Then I'm off to Indy, where I DO have permission to take photos of the Junior and Senior events.
    After that, Justine Chiu and I are shooting Thornhill Summer Skate as the official photographers!

    I will also be at Summer Sizzle but I'm working for D'Asti Photogrpahy so I wont be able to share any photos if there are pairs in that competition.

    I'm very excited though! :)
     
  14. blademate

    blademate Member

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    Have Steele/Schultz left the Wirtzes? Or just absent from the sim?
     
  15. Daniskates93

    Daniskates93 Active Member

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    They didn't skate at sims yesterday. They're definitely still with Kris and Kristy!
     
  16. Rochelle

    Rochelle Active Member

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    Skater groups are posted for Skate Detroit (next weekend), and quite a few CAN pairs are entered: http://evt.sk8stuff.com/lister_event_detail.asp?id=4475

    Skate Detroit -- CAN Senior Pairs entered (7 teams total each in SP & FS):
    Moore-Towers & Moscovitch
    Purdy & Marianaro
    Steele & Schultz

    Skate Detroit -- CAN Junior Pairs entered (11 teams entered total each in SP & FS):
    Bell & Sylvester
    Conway & Sherriff-Clayton
    Jones & Beharry
    Orr & Furiano
    Rau & Simpson


    Indy Challenge -- Canadian Senior Pairs entered (14 teams entered total):
    Lawrence/Swiegers
    Moore-Towers & Moscovitch
    Purdy & Marianaro
    Steele & Schultz (Withdrew since the deadline)

    Indy Challenge -- Canadian Junior Pairs entered (14 teams entered total)
    Conway & Sherriff-Clayton (Withdrew since the deadline)
    Jones & Beharry
    Orr & Furiano
    Rau & Simpson
     
  17. geoskate

    geoskate Well-Known Member

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    Steele/Schultz weren't at Skate Detroit, where they had registered, and withdrew from Indy (see post above). There aren't any senior pairs at either Summer Sizzle or Thornhill, so they aren't going there. I'm curious what's going on. I hope it's just that their programs aren't competition-ready, and not that they are injured.

    It is strange for a team not to be doing any summer competitions. Before Canadians they could still do Isabelle Henderson, Georges-Ethier or Octoberfest, I guess. Has anybody heard any news about this team? They seem to be keeping a low profile.
     
  18. craycray1973

    craycray1973 New Member

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    I heard that she's in a cast, which is why they have had to withdraw from several of the summer competitions thus far. I wonder what Schultz will be doing in the meantime. It could be a rough year for them both if she isn't back on the ice soon.
     
  19. Rafter

    Rafter Well-Known Member

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    Any news on Katie Bobak? Has she retired or is she looking for a new partner?
     
  20. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    Canadian pairs' results/scores at Skate Detroit last week (SP and FS were separate events; I've combined the scores):

    SENIOR
    Moore-Towers & Moscovitch 59.47 (1st in SP) + 116.67 (1st in FS) = 176.14
    Purdy & Marinaro 48.00 (4th in SP) + 92.66 (4th in FS) = 140.66

    JUNIOR
    Rau & Simpson 36.02 (7th in SP) + 82.29 (2nd in FS) = 118.31
    Jones & Beharry 41.17 (3rd in SP) + 70.61 (7th in FS) = 111.78
    Orr & Furiano 40.59 (5th in SP) + 67.48 (10th in FS) = 108.07
    Bell & Sylvester 35.45 (8th in SP) + 70.92 (6th in FS) = 106.37
    Conway & Sherriff-Clayton 34.40 (9th in SP) + 58.26 (11th in FS) = 92.68

    The 3 pairs assigned to Lake Placid JGP and the listed substitutes:
    Krystel DESJARDINS / Charlie BILODEAU CAN 2
    Margaret PURDY / Michael MARINARO CAN 2
    Shalena RAU / Phelan SIMPSON CAN 2
    Subs:
    Hayleigh BELL / Alistair SYLVESTER
    Brittany JONES / Ian BEHARRY (new)
    Natasha PURICH / Sebastien ARCIERI (new)
     
  21. shutterbug

    shutterbug Well-Known Member

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    According to this, MT/M are skating to a “waltz with Parisian sounds” for their SP and Bohemian Rhapsody for their FP. Hopefully we get music info for some of the other teams from Indy.

    Decent scores for MT/M for early in the season. :) Bit of a rough SP skate for Rau & Simpson, but a good rebound in the free.
     
  22. laceup

    laceup New Member

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    Quote by craycray1973 (don't know why it didn't work right) "I heard that she's in a cast, which is why they have had to withdraw from several of the summer competitions thus far."

    Hopefully the cast is on her arm and not a leg. I thought last year when she landed a triple at Cup of China that her jumps were coming along but when the triple wasn't in their program at Nationals it makes you wonder??? I leg injury on an already "iffy" jumper wouldn't be a good thing :(
     
  23. skatingwatcher

    skatingwatcher New Member

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    Knowing the Wirtz camp, they played the "game" at Nationals, and with the clean skate Steele/Schulz had, it obviously was a great choice.
    The season is still young, and its always the best decision to heal, rather than make any kind of injury worse.
     
  24. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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  25. ~tapdancer~

    ~tapdancer~ Well-Known Member

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    Love the music, it'll be a great program for them if skated clean and with more speed. Looks great so far, good for them. No perk here, either, I noticed! Just big and bold. Looking forward to seeing it this season in competition.
     
  26. geoskate

    geoskate Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for posting the link, Sylvia!

    I love it too, and echo the response that it needs a bit more speed in places and also some finetuning (the last lift, for example). However, for an early-season performance, that was excellent.

    She really has improved her line and stretch compared to last season. The choreography is a step up from last season also, IMO. It's not a character-driven piece, as many of their programs have been to date, but rather a music-driven piece. I'm not sure they could have handled this last year; now they can, and they do it well . . . good work on their part.
     
  27. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

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    I know it's a new program and definitely will improve. That being said, I hate the way pairs programs are constructed these days, saving most elements for the last half. The first half had transitions, but then the throws and the lifts just made it look element to element. It's smart to choreograph for points, but I find it meh.
     
  28. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    You can blame their choreographer for that, not the way pairs programs are constructed. Their coach could have used this whole time to really take this team out of the box but they seemed to have regressed. They are even doing the same one-knee lift that slows him down to a crawl. I miss the team from 2010. They have time to get the speed I have seen in the past but I miss the energy behind the moves.
     
  29. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

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    I was happy to see that they added a new position to a lift, but was dismayed to see the star position still used so much...
     
  30. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    No kidding: it was noticeable even though she was wearing black tights, which accentuate every flaw in general.