Canadian Pairs 2012

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by shutterbug, Jan 26, 2012.

  1. geoskate

    geoskate Well-Known Member

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    I understand Northern Dancer's point. I think that at this point M-T/M are normally a significantly better team than D/W, and certainly the international judges think so. Furthermore, it is a strange situation to see a team that just missed the Grand Prix final not competing at Worlds.

    However, perhaps the premise that a combination of D/R and M-T/M could get three spots for next year is questionable. It's possible, but IMO not very likely. If that is true (my assumption), then the rationale for sending M-T/M rather D/W is not very pressing. On the other hand, barring disaster a team of D/R and D/W is just as likely to earn two spots as a team of D/R and M-T/M.

    Therefore I don't see why Skate Canada should have ignored their normal protocol in this case. M-T/M should be fine in terms of assignments for next year, since they should finish in the top twelve in terms of season's best and ranking. For D/W, the assignment to Worlds could help them in that regard.

    For M-T/M it could even be a positive thing if they handle it correctly. For one thing, it gives them more time to prepare for next season. Also, it gives them the experience of having a disastrous competition in a situation where the cost is not as great as (say) at a Grand Prix competition or at Worlds. If they can figure out what happened and learn how to prevent it in the future, it could end up being a very positive thing for them in the long term.
  2. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    I think M-T/M should go at WCh. Can understand, why SC send D-W. Especially afer D-W perfomance at 4CC.
  3. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    Isn't it too late to change the world team now?
  4. Subway

    Subway New Member

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    I agree. While D/W surprised me by getting a pretty good 3 twist, Skate Canada's own logic with Phaneuf versus Lacoste was pretty much that nationals was an anomoly and Phaneuf is the stronger skater with a better chance of a top ten finish at Worlds. Her best probably is better than Lacoste's best, but Phaneuf hasn't shown that she's capable of delivering her best this season. They should have sent Lacoste outright. D/W and MTM - pairs is a favorite discipline of mine and historically Jessica Dube has delivered her best performances at Canadians. Historically there have been a bunch of Canadian skaters who were the same way.

    MTMs best is capable of a top ten finish at Worlds and D/W's isn't even if the team skated better than at Canadians. And let's face it, that's unlikely to happen because Dube tends to peak at Canadians. D/W doesn't have the content for a top ten finish at Worlds, even clean. If MTM had had as little content as D/W they might have faired better at Canadians.

    It could be said Phaneuf versus Lacoste was the real blunder and respecting the podium finish at Canadians is how Skate Canada ought to have determined its World team across all disciplines. They ended up really insulting Lacoste as the message was they wanted to send anyone but her. Caetlyn Osmond they'd have sent. Phaneuf they'd have sent. But please, give us one more chance not to send Amelie! I find SC's desire to have a top ten finish in ladies sort of funny because their women's picture is so miserable what difference does it make. It's not like the great Canadian ladies will lose opportunity. Pairs is in better shape and could benefit from qualifying 3 teams at Worlds. That's something MTM is in position to help achieve, but not D/W, not even a clean D/W.
  5. flowerpower

    flowerpower Well-Known Member

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    I think the problem is that if you repeatedly override Nationals standing to select the Worlds team, you open up an increasingly large can of worms.

    Pretty soon skaters would become cynical about what Nationals means, and assume that World team selection is being decided behind closed doors, rather than by what is put on the ice at the national championships. The documented selection criteria do allow SC to take other competitions/considerations into account, but every time you exercise that option, you create perceptions of unfairness that can damage commitment to the sport, domestically.

    With four pairs teams (and maybe even more, next year) fighting it out for limited international spots, SC has to be careful about transparency, IMO. It might be different for feds elsewhere which pay skaters' expenses, but SC only pays a fraction of the cost, so fairness is expected by the skaters.
  6. flowerpower

    flowerpower Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this. Open the door a crack, the water rushes in. Pretty soon MT-M will be feeling sorry for themselves, instead of picking themselves up, learning some useful lessons and coming back stronger next year.
  7. shutterbug

    shutterbug Well-Known Member

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    Skate Canada hasn't published their criteria for choosing the World team so as to leave themselves some wiggle room for unusual circumstances. With only one woman’s spot available and two candidates who had similar results over the season, it’s not really surprising that they chose to have Amelie and Cynthia do a skate off at 4CC. Even then, I don’t think they got the definitive result they were looking for. Historically they’ve relied almost exclusively on the results from Canadians, and the skaters are well aware of this. Likely the rationale for relying on the nats results is that the competition serves as a simulation for Worlds – bring your “A” game because you’re only going to get one shot. Does this method always result in the “best” team being chosen for Worlds? Nope. The Jeff vs Ben debate from 2004 is a prime example. Ben was sent to Worlds where he tanked, and Jeff came back the next season to win a World silver medal.

    My heart goes out to MT/M. Their season wasn’t supposed to end the way it did. Based on what I saw in practice, they should have beaten L/S fairly easily and D/W very easily. But they didn’t, and that’s that about that. As I said before, Kirsten is very young, and defending a title is not easy. Actually, I felt sorry for all the medalists from 2011. They looked so tense in the warm ups that I just knew we weren’t in for a lot of good skating. Such a contrast to 2011 when everyone was so loose and having a great time. But dealing with pressure is part of the game, and it was a good learning experience for all of them. I'm expecting some terrific competition next season.
  8. Subway

    Subway New Member

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    I wouldn't assume MTM would feel sorry for themselves under any circumstances. That's too paternalistic an idea to keep in mind for my liking. If anything these skaters should be treated more like adults. Skate Canada said it had the Lacoste/Phaneuf 4CC skate-off because it was important to try to qualify the most women for Worlds. Cynthia's been top ten, Lacoste not. That's a reasonable calculation then - send the woman with the arguably better shot. (Even though in Cynthia's case I think it's a real stretch this season.)

    Setting aside the state of the ladies, if we take that statement as true, then it's also important to try and qualify the most pairs for Worlds. In that case, send MTM. Are they a guaranteed top ten, no, but they've done it, and at this point D/W can't do it based on their current program content even skated clean.

    Although I believe MTM should have gotten the Worlds assignment based on the rationale Skate Canada used with Phaneuf versus Lacoste, Dube/Wolfe did serve as an example to the other Canadian pairs. Their skate was a little ragged but basically clean and they did their elements. They didn't always appear comfortable and their energy flagged at the end, but it was a very "professional" outing that showed experience. Sometimes the pressure of a particular competition can feel so great it's like it's perfection or nothing when history shows basic perseverence and a workmanlike effort can get you places too. We've seen that at Olympics, not just national championships.

    Anyway, shutterbug, I basically agree with you.

    Skate Canada needs to be consistent. If the priority is the potential finish at Worlds, prioritize that across disciplines. If Canadians is absolute, then that holds no matter who ends up on the podium. If you havie one standard for one result at Canadians and another in a different discipline, you look like politics, personalities and favoritism are controlling the decisions. That's the mistake SC made this time.
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2012
  9. flowerpower

    flowerpower Well-Known Member

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    Yes, exactly. I did not literally expect MT-M to feel sorry for themselves (though it might have been de-motivating if they kept hearing how they wuzrobbed of a trip to Worlds, and developed the impression they were not getting the support they deserved).

    My point was that it is easier for all skaters to remain positive and motivated when consistent approaches are taken to Worlds team decisions, as you suggest. I would have preferred SC to stick with the Nationals results in all disciplines.
  10. nlyoung

    nlyoung Active Member

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    D/W directly to worlds made sense as it would not have worked to send the 4th placed finishers to 4C to determine the team. I also think that had Amelie landed any jump more difficult than a 3L at nationals they would have gone with those results. She basically won the title on the strength of that jump alone. That, combined with Cynthia's new training situation, made the skate-off seem more justified. The hope was that Cynthia would have pulled herself together and delivered a stronger skate with a lutz at least, or that Amelie would have been motivated to at least attempt the harder triples...:shuffle:
  11. Subway

    Subway New Member

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    I wasn't advocating a skate off for MTM and D/W at 4CCs, just addressing Skate Canada's objective of qualifying the maximum number of participants at Worlds. If that's the aim, write off MTM's Canadians as an anomaly, look at their Worlds finish last season and GPS results this year and name them to the World team over D/W. D/W's 4CC's performance would have only confirmed the "wisdom" of such a decision - wisdom meaning send the team likely to place higher at Worlds.

    I'm not advocating this as the way to go, just looking at SC's goal of qualifying the most skaters for Worlds which is why they had the Lacoste/Phaneuf skate off. A 4CCs skate off isn't needed for pairs because SC already knows which team would place top ten, and MTM has had a stronger GPS than Phaneuf.

    Anyway, I hope SC agrees this wasn't handled or communicated well and does it differently next year.

    Since Kirsten is new to pairs and she and Dylan were defending national champions I thought it was short-sighted not to give them Skate Canada because Skate Canada could have been a bit of a dress rehearsal for defending their title Canadians as far as nerves and stage fright. Even Scott Moir said Canadians is nerve-wracking because of the expectations.
  12. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    I believe Amelie did land a 3lz at 4CC's.
  13. shutterbug

    shutterbug Well-Known Member

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    flowerpower's comment about transparency started me thinking that there HAD to be some sort of documentation out there regarding Skate Canada’s criteria for the World team. Went hunting and found this. Interesting, non? Especially the reference to “in no specific order”……seems they can look beyond nats results if they really want to……
  14. flowerpower

    flowerpower Well-Known Member

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    Yup, that's why I mentioned that the "documented selection criteria" do allow SC to take other competitions/considerations into account.

    SC's rules permit it, but IMO each time you exercise that option, perceptions of unfairness and favouritism arise, especially if the application of the criteria doesn't seem to be consistent. I'd rather they stick with Nationals results except in truly exceptional situations (e.g. a defending World medalist was injured and missed Nationals). JMO.
  15. shutterbug

    shutterbug Well-Known Member

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    Short Lawrence/Swiegers update: Paige and Rudi winding down a winning year
    Sorry to hear that they’re not keeping their LP. Usually I prefer teams to change their programs every season, but it would have been nice to see this one skated cleanly.

    A cute human-interest type article: The wonderful life of Paige and Rudi
    Sounds like it took some time to convince Paige she wanted to get into pairs. :lol: I imagine she’s pretty happy with her decision now. :)
  16. ~tapdancer~

    ~tapdancer~ Well-Known Member

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    Really great article on Paige and Rudi. I adore this pair and loved reading about their history. Have to admit I wish they were a couple...I saw them live at 4CC and was so impressed at how they look together (they are both quite attractive, imo) and I also liked their interaction with each other. But mostly, I love their skating...their programs are so interesting. Their expression during the "Beetlejuice" program was amazing, it reached all the way out to the audience. I also loved their LP this season and "Van Helsing" remains one of my all time favorite pair programs.

    I really wish they were going to Worlds (I find them infinitely more interesting than Dube/Wolfe or Duhamel/Radford), but I'm glad they have set their goal for Sochi and I really hope they achieve it. They've got the artistic goods, now if they can just get their technical really clean.
  17. fan

    fan Active Member

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    updated with split:

    Novice Pair
    Rank Competitor(s) Section SP FP Points
    1 Hayleigh Bell / Alistair Sylvester CO 39.76 78.46 118.22
    2 Dylan Conway / Dustin Sherriff-Clayton CO 37.92 67.98 105.90
    3 Marie-Laurence Bradette / Felix-Antoine Garneau-Picard QC 32.21 61.67 93.88
    4 SPLIT - Madelyn Dunley / Wesley Killing WO 32.57 58.93 91.50
    5 Jordyn Harper / Shaquille Davis CO 32.90 58.17 91.07
    6 SPLIT - Kendra Digness / Cole Vandervelden AB/NT/NU 31.65 53.31 84.96 7 Julia Mercer / Spencer Buchanan QC 28.12 56.50 84.62
    8 Jessica Landry / Sebastian M. Arcieri QC 30.10 50.39 80.49
    9 Sabrina Vigneault / Cedric Savard QC 25.29 47.27 72.56
    10 Elizabeth Swenor / Rocky Swenor
  18. sk8rmomma

    sk8rmomma New Member

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    Jessica Landry who placed 8th with Sebastian Arcieri in novice pairs, is also on Ice Partner Search.
  19. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Local article on Michael Marinaro and Margaret Purdy after their 5th place finish at Junior Worlds: http://www.theobserver.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3495922
  20. shutterbug

    shutterbug Well-Known Member

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    Whoa, Ray Schultz is on icepartnersearch. :eek: No sign of Natasha. Anyone have more info about this split?
  21. The Accordion

    The Accordion Well-Known Member

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    Oh! I hope she keeps doing pairs - I think she is terrific!
  22. JasperBoy

    JasperBoy Well-Known Member

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    OMG Maybe Natasha took my advice and partnered with Mervin Tran!
  23. flowerpower

    flowerpower Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps she'll concentrate on singles for a while. No need to rush immediately into another partnership. She has a lot of potential and needs the right match.
  24. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    Did I miss something? He already has a partner.
  25. JasperBoy

    JasperBoy Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I know. But I am on a crusade to repatriate Mervin and have him skate for Canada with a Canadian partner. That way he will be able to go to the Sochi Olympics.
  26. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    So you want to seperate him from a partner that he does well with to start over with someone who is new and unproven to go to one competition...:scream:
  27. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    D/W can and probably will finish in the top 10 at Worlds, if they skate better than at 4CC, which was a pretty off competition for them. Dube has never skated with Wolfe at Worlds before (obviously) so you can't cite what she did with Davison as a pattern that in any way applies to this situation. MT/M coulda woulda shoulda beaten D/W at Nationals. But they didn't so I really don't see why some are so up in arms over D/W going to Worlds. They are a good team. MT/M had every chance to skate well at Nationals as much as the next team but it didn't happen, and they still were looking at probably 6-9th place at Worlds given their GP skates anyway, so I'm not sure it makes much difference.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2012
  28. grandma

    grandma New Member

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    sounds good, but is he tall enough for Natascha? As Schultz is also very small for a male pair skater, and this might be the reason for the split:rolleyes:
  29. JasperBoy

    JasperBoy Well-Known Member

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    Well, I think they would have to skate at few competitions before being chosen for the Olympic team. If Mervin has to sit out a year, he needs to start now.

    This is just my personal crusade. Mervin's a good prairie boy who should be on our team, IMHO.
  30. NorthernDancers

    NorthernDancers New Member

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    My issue is that Skate Canada has taken 2 opposite approaches to selection of the world team. With the ladies, they are obsessed with making sure they send the person most likely to win 2 spots to Worlds next year. By questioning Lacoste's results all season, ordering a skate-off and so on, Lacoste is not going to world's with a ringing endorsement from her home federation. It's like she's the choice of last result. And she is this year's Canadian champion for goodness sake. And the reality is that it is extremely unlikely ANY Canadian lady will finish top 10 this year. There was no reason for this bout of indecision by Skate Canada.

    The same goal is not applied to pairs. Here the point is to only look at Nationals results. If they looked at the whole season, like they did with ladies, MT/M would be the choice. Nationals would be treated like an anomaly and the there would be no question about who goes where. If it's about securing maximum number of spots for next year, MT/M are the best choice right now. D/W are a new team who have not achieved internationally yet. Their programs do not have the difficulty yet of other world teams, and they do not yet have the quality in their pair skills. By rushing them to the international stage too soon, Skate Canada may even be harming them for the future. Dube was once 3rd in the world. Now they are unlikely to crack the top 10 at this world's. That's not a good message internationally. It's quite possible there wouldn't be 3 spots anyway. It didn't happen last year. But at least we'd have the best chance.

    We need some consistency and transparency: either Skate Canada makes selection to 4CC and world's based only on Nationals results, or they look at the season and make choices for best likely prospects and future spots. They need a clear, consistent process.
  31. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    While I do think the skateoff was pretty unnecessary, IMO the reason they did it is because Lacoste really did not skate very well at Nationals to give them confidence that she was the right pick for champion and Worlds spot, she did do *just* enough to win, but I wouldn't be confident sending that kind of skating to Worlds. I think they were hoping for someone to come out at 4CC and totally nail it to make a very clear choice, but instead what they got was both Lacoste and Phaneuf popping a ton of jumps, and Najarro even worse. So the only thing it kind of helped prove is that Phaneuf is really blowing it in a very consistent way this year, and that Lacoste is basically the same so there's really no good choice.

    With pairs, like them or not, Dube/Wolfe gave a very good performance at Nationals that is worthy of Worlds top 10. Whether they repeat that at Worlds is up to them, but there's no reason they shouldn't have a shot. If D/W, MT/M, and L/S all imploded at Nationals, there'd probably be a skateoff for the 2nd spot too. But D/W skated well so they earned it. I don't see D/W being rushed to Worlds before they are ready- if they weren't ready, they wouldn't have been able to beat L/S at Nationals regardless of MT/M blowing up. There's no reason that D/W couldn't make top 10 at Worlds, but let's see what happens.

    As for worrying about "messages" to be sending by a low Worlds finish, that's a ridiculous reason not to send someone who is otherwise qualified. I think everyone is aware that skaters have good and bad competitions. Ashley Wagner was still able to win 4CC even though she didn't beat Mao Asada earlier this year, and Marley/Brubaker still made the podium even though they blew up at Skate America. Even if D/W finish 20th at Worlds, they'll still be able to compete for medals on the GP series next year if they show up improved.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2012
  32. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    My point was the Olympics is only one competition (maybe two) out of an entire skating career, if they even get to go, so why jeopardize the partner he has now just for that? It seems like a silly decision-besides he's 21, it's sometimes best to just continue on course instead of starting over. No matter what country it's for...at least he's skating. :shuffle:
  33. Habs

    Habs Well-Known Member

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    My very reliable :sekret: told me awhile ago that Natasha has always wanted to to concentrate on singles (apparently she doesn't like sharing the spotlight with a partner ;) ), and that she picked up pairs on the side.
  34. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    I heard the same thing. I think the pairs thing was just for fun and then they had some success early on. I never got the impression it was her main goal. By the way, Natasha is very very tiny. I would say she is barely 5 feet, if that. Anyone who is too small a partner for Natasha is too small for pairs, period.
  35. Habs

    Habs Well-Known Member

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    She's 4'10"
  36. Cant Skate

    Cant Skate Member

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    While checking out IPS last night for any new splits, I noticed Wesley Killing's profile is down. Anyone know of a new partnership? :sekret: And who is Eric Theissen? He looks to be trying to get started in pairs...at 19, is that normal? Maybe he'll get together with Kendra Digness since she's from Edmonton too and looking for a partner. Hard to say if her coaches would be willing to take a chance on a guy with no experience but its pretty slim pickings for boys out West so who knows. Interesting...,I can't wait for the summer competitions!
  37. shutterbug

    shutterbug Well-Known Member

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    New rumoured split – Leah Hyslop/Bob Goodwin

    Hmm, interesting about Killing…….all the appropriately aged Canuck girls are still on icepartnersearch, so he’s either decided to pull the plug on skating or he’s found a partner who wasn’t listed. Can’t imagine he’d go without a partner for long if he wants to continue since he’s a good size and still junior age eligible. Andrea Tou maybe? They’re both in Ontario. Natasha? Nah, I don’t see him being an upgrade from Ray, although he is a fair bit bigger. Unless she wants to skate pairs at the junior level to leave herself more time to devote to singles?

    So, how many teams do we have that might be considered for JGP assignments in the upcoming season? I’m thinking at least 4, possibly as many as 6: Purdy/Marinaro, Bell/Sylvester, Dejardin/Bilodeau, Rau/Simpson for sure, and possibly Conway/Sherriff-Clayton. Biggest question mark is Bobak/Beharry. They have to skate senior domestically, but I imagine Skate Canada would like to send them to Jr. Worlds again since they’ll still be age eligible. Personally, I’d like to see them go senior, but if the proposed rule change regarding participating in both junior and senior events in the same season passes, that might force them to go junior again if they do want to go back to Jr. Worlds.
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2012
  38. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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  39. Cant Skate

    Cant Skate Member

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    Hmmmm.....and Matthew Penasse is down too! Maybe a partnership between Matthew and Natasha?? :watch:
  40. JasperBoy

    JasperBoy Well-Known Member

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    Natasha needs to clone herself. She has been suggested as a partner for at least 4 guys.
    But she should keep herself for Mervin!