Calling flip and lutz jumps

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Triple Butz, Apr 27, 2012.

  1. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    This season, there have been an awful lot of controversial flips and lutzes and I'm curious as to what people think a caller should look for when identifying a jump. When it comes to these two toe jumps, there are traditional entrance techniques that have become standard since the early days of the sport. For example, a three turn entrance just before picking in to a flip jump, or a long held back edge going into a lutz jump. Other skaters prefer a mohawk entrance, with a quicker entry into a flip, and a slight delay on a lutz.

    We saw Alena Leonova essentially doing three flips throughout the GP series, and (IMO) arbitrarily calling one of them a lutz. We saw Brian Joubert do a triple "lip" in the sp at Worlds and WTT that he simply put down as a "lutz" on his sheet. Hanyu's triple flip and lutz are indistinguishable to me.

    Do these techniques matter when it comes to classifying a jump, or is it simply the edge at the take-off point that defines a lutz from a flip? And if that is the case, wouldn't the "e" mark be irrelevant? In my mind, it should be clear long before the toe picks in what jump a skater is attempting. I also think that holding a back edge and having some degree of a BO edge before or during the toe pick DOES make a "flutz" more difficult than a regular flip.

    IMO, the setups for jumps DO matter, but I'd love to hear other opinions.
    gkelly and (deleted member) like this.
  2. C_T_T_

    C_T_T_ Well-Known Member

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    I agree completely agree that the set up matters. To me the difference between a flutz and a flip is the counter rotation. To a skater, they feel very different.

    If we look at Brian's lip, the blade changes edge at the last moment but there is no counter rotation. I would even say by the time he is on the outside edge, his weight has been transfered to the right foot. So that makes it a flip but with a change of edge. I believe Brian said he had planned to do a lutz in the SP but changed his mind half way through so it wasn't delibrately done to avoid the e.

    Leonova's flutz, on the other hand, is a flip to me. I know she does a choctaw entrance to the lutz but while the blade may be on the outside edge fo a split second, her upper body has already started rotating before she picks. I had never noticed Hanyu's jumps until you mentined him but he has similar entrances to Leonova- mowhawk for flip and choctaw for lutz. The big difference for me is the counter rotation makes it clear which jump he is attempting.
  3. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    I think that set ups should matter but I also think that wobbly edges should be punished more
    The only lutz an flips that should be given full crest should be ones entered on CLEAR inside or outside edges.
    For example Mao has flips and lutzes that look exactly the same to me edgewise. She should get deductions for that. Same for other skaters who do the same.
  4. MR-FAN

    MR-FAN Kostner Softie

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    Entrance should have no weight in my opinion. All that matters to me is the takeoff edge. Who's to say a person cannot do a lutz from a 3turn?? Or a flip from a long entry?? What Brian does in the SP is a lutz, and it should count as such. In the LP, his final jump combo is a lutz- 2axel, and should be called as such. If it results in too many lutzes, it should not count. This whole "intention" crap for the edge deduction is a stupid rule
  5. MR-FAN

    MR-FAN Kostner Softie

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    Eta: and technical specialists should be allowed to slo-mo the entrance to confirm the edge
  6. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    I disagree, but that's a valid opinion. But, if the edge is the only determining factor, how does a caller decide when to assign the "e" to a jump in this current state?

    Also, what about skaters who don't consistently flutz or lip, but occasionally do. If a skater does two lutzes, and then accidentally lips a flip (even though this mistake is not habitual) at the end of the program, should they receive no credit at all because of the Zayak rule?
  7. skatak

    skatak Well-Known Member

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    No a new debate...I remember not liking all the similar flips of St├ęphane some years ago, and being flamed for having said that Michelle was flutzing at a GPF.

    It seemed to me that up to a certain point, the 'planned element' sheet was the only way to decide if a skater was doing a flip or a Lutz...

    Was much surprised in Nice to see Brian's flip counted as Lutz in the SP... the skate-at-home bonus, leaving the impression that flip and Lutz would be undifferenciated in the future.
    For this particular jumps, from the entrance it's a flip, but Brian does an outside/outside turn, which is more difficult than the outside/inside one. His Lutz entrance is way different, but you can't base the idenfitication of jumps on the entrance, skaters may well change it with time.

    On one point it's not fair, especially for skaters who know how to do two different jumps, or (Joannie comes to my mind) that have worked especially on this matter to correct their technique.

    On the other hand in pairs Twist and throws are not differntiated.

    Sometimes it's obvious, sometimes it's more subtle.
    If it has to come the point of analysing the video to try to see if the skater's weight was already shifted because the change of edge is difficult to see... just as well forget the whole thing, callers don't have that extra time.
    I guess we will still see some 'e' from time to time, depending on who judges this matter.
  8. MR-FAN

    MR-FAN Kostner Softie

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    That's the point, this whole "e" idea makes no sense to me. I understand why it's there, but I think they should either review the takeoff edge, or make it only 1 jump, regardless of the edge (ala walley and toeloop).

    If a skater goes off the wrong edge accidentally, it sucks but technically they do end up doing the wrong jump and should be penalized for it. It's like when the best ice dancers accidentally do the choctaw on the wrong edge. It's not common but when it happens, the levels should reflect that
  9. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    I agree, and I think pretty much everyone does, that skaters need to be penalized for incorrect entries, but receiving 0 points for a jumping pass (in the situation I described above) seems a little extreme to me, especially since there is a lack of consistency when it comes to calling jumps.

    I understand that you disagree with the concept of the "e" but I was curious as to what you would do as a caller within these current guidelines? Would you give Brian's final 3-mystery jump+2A+SEQ an "e" or call it a lutz and Zayak him?

    Another issue is that there are many skaters (Kwan, Suzuki, Nakano, and Nagasu come to mind) who have taken off on what, to me, appeared to be a completely flat edge at one time or another. What should be done about that? Is it an invalid jump because it was not clearly on one edge or the other? Or does it merely deserve an "e" ??
  10. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    I know he said that, but then the EXACT same thing happened at the WTT trophy weeks later...
  11. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    How do you do a lutz from a 3 turn?
  12. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    Do a three turn from a forward inside to a back outside edge, then do the lutz.
  13. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Active Member

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    DUH!!!

    LOL
  14. C_T_T_

    C_T_T_ Well-Known Member

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    Which is why I think it was even more ridiculous that it was called as a lutz!:yikes:
  15. 5Ali3

    5Ali3 Active Member

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    The rationale for no slow-mo on edge changes is that the vast majority of skaters change edge at some point: the rule is intended to give "benefit of the doubt" to skaters.

    FTh and LzTh are differentiated. ISU First Aid for Pairs says, "These two throw jumps are considered as the same for the purpose of a Well Balanced Free Skating program." That does not mean that the throws are considered the same element: the well-balanced FS required state that the two throws must be of a different nature, and First Aid is stating that FTh and LzTh are of the same nature for the purpose of determining whether the team has executed two throws of the same or different nature. Translation: teams can't do both a FTh and a LzTh. Goal: encourage variety.

    For twists, it's a different story: the distinction between flip-twists and Lutz-twists is meaningless. I'm not sure why the flip-twist designation was even added a few years back, but essentially, most people call every twist either a flip or a Lutz, depending on the individual caller, and that's okay with the people who make the rules.

    That seems really hard...
  16. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Why do people see Brian's flip in the SP as a lutz? It's clearly done from a mohawk, which is a flip-type entrance...
  17. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    You mean people don't try it like that already? :confused:

    Actually my brain thinks it would be relatively easy. Hmm. I may have to attempt this at training on Monday. Although it may be considered more difficult because the rotation from the 3-turn would have to be countered and completely finished before trying the counter-rotation for the jump. Hmm hmm.

    If I break myself at training on Monday, I know who to blame :lol:
  18. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    Mohawk entry =/= flip.

    You could do a mohawk, roll onto the outside edge, and do a lutz, I would imagine. It would be tricky, but possible.
  19. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this on a technical standpoint, but people are already whinging that the ladies levels of difficulty has dropped.. i think this would result in seeing less variations of triple jumps... and maybe doubles to ensure the jump is at least counted for something.
  20. Ozzisk8tr

    Ozzisk8tr Well-Known Member

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    His mohawk is slightly choctaw-ish though, likewise there are a few skaters that do a rocker (bastardised version of one) before they flip, which makes it a lutz edge takeoff.
  21. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    ^ But that's how Brian enters all his flips. He even said in his interview that it was a flip. His lutz entrances are clearly different and has never used varied entrances for his lutz and flip jumps.
  22. Blair

    Blair New Member

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    To me, I think the distinction is fairly clear. The setup doesn't necessarily pedicate the jump, but rolling over the edge is where there should be a penalty.

    For instance, whether a lutz entrance is short or long, if the skater entered the jump from a choctaw and was on an outside edge from the moment of the setup move to the moment he/she leaves the ice, it should be scored as a lutz. If a skater wants to hang on a long back inside edge and omit the 3turn, the jump is still a flip (toeloops and flips don't necessarily need a 3turn or mohawk setup...i like to do them from back crossovers or lunges).

    Assuming Joubert didn't roll over the outside edge on the choctaw to the jump takeoff, then it's clearly a lutz...regarless of how quick the entry was.

    Contrastingly, Mao uses a more typical lutz entry but she (and many others) roll over the edge before takeoff, rightfully resulting in the edge call. Alena does a choctaw into her lutz (like Brian), but she rolls over to an inside (unlike Brian) and should get the penalty.
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2012
  23. Ozzisk8tr

    Ozzisk8tr Well-Known Member

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    To jump is ultimately determined by the edge the blade is on when the skater leaves the ice. If they are on an outside edge it's a lutz, an inside is the flip. No matter what takeoff is done, it's all determined by the edge.
  24. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if people are trying it, but for me it would be the most awkward entrance. Left inside three turn is the worse one for me, the least controlled, because it rotates the less preferred way. Not impossible, but why do entrance that feels awkward when there may be hundreds of other ways to get into it? Why not for example do back left powel pulls and then when you are at back outside edge, just bend more, put toe in and jump.
  25. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Well, we know Brian is a lipper...
  26. 5Ali3

    5Ali3 Active Member

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    Actually, that's not entirely true. The official List of Jumps specifies that a Lutz involves an outside edge takeoff and counter-rotation, while a flip involves an inside edge takeoff and natural-rotation. The problem arises, of course, when a skater executes a jump with an inside edge takeoff and counter-rotation, or an outside edge takeoff and natural-rotation. Traditionally, the jump has been identified by the nature of the rotation (counter/natural), with an improper edge being considered an error. I suspect the reason why the skating community considers the nature of the rotation to be more important than the takeoff edge is because the nature of the rotation differentiates the technique far more than the takeoff edge, and is considerably more difficult than the edge. (This also follows from figures: if you were competing figure 20A (RFO, LBO rocker) and changed edge on the rocker, you didn't receive a 0.0 for executing the wrong figure; you were considered to have made an error on the rocker by changing edge and your score was reduced accordingly.)

    It's definitely possible to do a Lutz with perfect counter-rotation and an inside edge takeoff, usually because the free leg "picks" away from the body instead of behind the body (leaning forward on the BO edge and swinging the free leg too high seem to be part of this triad).

    FWIW, the "official" description of a 1F is: bi! 1 Tbo and of a 1Lz: bo! 1 Cbo. [ ! means "pick take off"]
  27. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. And you need to start rotating in the opposite direction immediately for the jump, which has another counter rotation itself. That's probably the reason why we have never seen such an entrance into lutz from any skater (that I know of). Would love to see if it's possible though.
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2012
  28. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    If you ask nicely, I may spend six months to make it work! :lol: Or maybe rather not... :shuffle: (my natural lazyness and unwillingness to waste my time. It would be quicker to ask my coach to jump it for me.)
  29. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    IMO, jumps should be called as they really are. I mean, if an intended Lutz is on the inside edge, call it a Flip. Same for the Lip.
    The problem would be about a jump on Flat : call it Lutz (e) or Flip (e).
  30. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Hung on, there is a difference between flip and Lutz. The fact that you changed edge in the last second does not make lutz flip. Lutz has a counterrotation before you jump; that makes it much harder jump. But if you cheat the edge, it doesn't suddenly turn into flip, because you have still done the counterrotation. So in theory, it is neither flip nor lutz if you want to be completely accurate. It's a hybrid!
  31. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    It's only the case if you switch to the other edge at the last moment. But for most skaters, the Flutz is just a Flip (Mao Asada or Alena Leonova, for example). ;)
  32. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    Go for it plzzzzzz :D
  33. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    The jump has to be called on the intention. You do not call it on what actually happens. Doing a lutz of an inside edge is bad technique for that jump.
  34. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but it's not about the preceding movements (which are entirely up to the skaters' choosing).

    On the lutz, you skate in the direction opposite to that of the rotation, on the flip you skate in the same direction as the rotation.

    Even if a skater enters from a three-turn, there is a moment where you skate in the opposite direction.

    That's what makes the difference crucial and the lutz much harder.
  35. Rock2

    Rock2 New Member

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    Regardless of the rules I think there should be requirements that a lutz be preceded by a clear counter rotation prior to the takeoff on an outside edge.

    If you are allowed to have the same entrance for a lutz and a flip and it's only the edge that matters then there is no case for an 'e' call; if you are on outside edge it's a lutz...inside edge it's a flip.
    What's worse, in a case like that, if you do 3 jumps that end up coming off the same edge then I would make the last one worth 0. If you're boiling it down to the edge only then you just did 3 flips or lutzes and that is that. Perhaps the only e call could be that you had either no edge or not a clear enough edge although in the right direction. If you clearly flip over onto the wrong edge that should be an egregious error and penalized.

    So, I prefer the clear distinction about the rotation into the jump so you are demonstrating clear intent of a certain jump. Based on the rotation into the jump you would either be credited properly or an 'e' could be properly applied. With this approach there is no justification for a '0' which is better for the skaters.
  36. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Well, if the jump is immediately preceded by steps and turns, especially turns in both directions, and the final edge before the jump is very short, then the intention could be ambiguous and it would make sense to call the jump based entirely on the edge of the blade at takeoff.

    However, if there's a sustained glide and at most one turn in the few seconds immediately preceding the jump, then there's plenty of time to establish counterrotation -- or not -- to establish the intention, in which case that's what should be called. With an edge call if the blade doesn't follow through on that intention all the way until takeoff.
  37. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean by a "clear counter rotation"? It's the outside edge that gives the jump its counter rotation. How do you have one but not the other?
  38. Rock2

    Rock2 New Member

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    In theory your question is valid...but these lutzes that come out of a traditional flip entrance have very little of either (edge or counter rotation) in my mind. They seem to rotate into the jump with perhaps only a slight crossover to the outside edge

    So maybe I reword to "clear counter-rotation and outside edge" or something...
  39. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    It is also the way the shoulders work. Skaters need to get a strong check in their shoulders in order to get on the outside edge.
  40. 5Ali3

    5Ali3 Active Member

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    [on preview: I'm not sure this is a great explanation, if you learn kinesthetically, as I do, it might be somewhat interesting, so I'm going to post it despite not being a great exercise. This is something that I used to do off-ice and will still occasionally do when really bored while waiting in line at the grocery store. There is significant variation in flip/Lutz technique and this is based on what I did, which resembles but may not replicate what I was taught :lol: so YMMV and someone else may have a different way to describe this.]

    To expand on what AussieWilly said:
    I'm going to pretend everyone who wants to try this at home would jump CCW; if you are inclined to be a CW jumper, just reverse L and R. For reference, straight in front of you is 12:00, 90 degrees to your right is 3:00, 180 degrees 6:00, etc.

    Try this: stand with all of your weight on your left leg. Extend your right leg directly behind your right hip (realistically: 5:00); ideally, your right foot is about maybe six inches off the ground, but it's hard to hold that position when static, so touch the toes of your right foot to the ground, but try not to put much weight on them. Okay, if your shoulders are square, rotate your upper body - without moving your hips! - so that your left shoulder is in front of your core (11:00) and your right shoulder is behind your core (5:00), with your right arm kinda over your right leg (it's not that extreme, but it's the idea). Keep twisting L upper body and R upper body clockwise: aim for 1:00 and 6:00 with those arms! Keep twisting your upper body! Don't move your hips! You should feel tension in your shoulders and chest as you are twisting: tension in your hips as you struggle to keep them square-ish (remember! you're standing on your leg leg only!) and they want to rotate clockwise with your shoulders. But they don't get to rotate, just the upper body. As you're twisting, the arms can rotate further than the shoulders, curving CCW from the shoulder joint.

    Okay, now stand on your left leg and extend your right leg behind you, same as before (square, no weight on your right leg even if you need to touch your right toes to the floor to stay balanced). Your left arm and shoulder should be in line about, oh, 11:00, right arm and shoulder about, maybe, 5:00? (I'm a bit less certain about this one, because I had a tendency to start rotating the upper body early, so on a double, my arms were usually about 10:00 and 4:00, and on a triple, 9:00 and 3:00. Note: I do not recommend this technique unless you prefer insanely hard falls to standing up: it's pretty much a recipe for failing to obtain the proper axis in the air, and the falls HURT because there's no chance to check the rotation with the shoulders rotated so far ahead of the hips. Please note that the fact that I know this does not mean that I was ever able to consistently change the technique... especially in competition. :rolleyes: ) Back at the ranch, er, floor ice rink, your arm should extend essentially straight-forward from your shoulder joint, so about 90 degrees, unlike in the first exercise, when the arm rotated CCW from the joint. (To be more precise, in the second exercise, your upper arm is at a 90 degree angle from your shoulder joint; I curve my arm from the elbow to the wrist, so that my hand actually ends up at 12:00. On the first exercise, it probably ends up at 2:00 with my upper arm facing 11:00 and reaching towards 12:00. I actually don't know if curved lower arm versus straight lower arm would make a difference in technique.... I don't recall being taught to do that, but it "feels" like it would be better than a straight arm - but I don't know why.)

    Think about trying to balance in this position: your goal is to keep your left arm in line with your left leg, definitely NOT rotated before 12:00, and your right arm approximately over your right leg but really a bit to the side of it. There should be tension in this position, but no tension between your lower and upper body, as they are attempting to be in line with each other. If you want to compare this to the first technique, from this lined-up position, twist your right shoulder towards 6:00 and your left shoulder towards 12:00 without moving your hips.

    You can get a sense of the outside/inside edge by thinking - in the first exercise - about feeling your weight on the outer edge of your foot, and - in the second exercise - about feeling your weight on the inner edge of your foot.
    hanca and (deleted member) like this.