Bronze medal at the 98 Olympics- Slutskaya, Chen, or Butyrskaya

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by butyrskafanatic, Jul 14, 2013.

Who should have been given bronze by judges for their skates in Nagano

  1. Butyrskaya

    84 vote(s)
    53.5%
  2. Slutskaya

    53 vote(s)
    33.8%
  3. Chen

    64 vote(s)
    40.8%
  4. someone else

    29 vote(s)
    18.5%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. ks1227

    ks1227 Well-Known Member

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    I agree about Gusmeroli and Hubert. Hubert was being heavily touted by her federation and in the press after her win over Lipinski at Lalique and her first French national championship, and Gusmeroli had won a World bronze the previous year. I think they both would have been scored very highly in the short program if they had skated cleanly. Lu Chen on the other hand was coming off of a very rough patch.
     
  2. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Based on pecking order and political clout of their respective federations, as well as their actual skating and programs, I think top twelve after the short would be something like this if all went clean:

    1. Kwan
    2. Lipinski
    3. Butyrskaya (I really think she deserved second)
    4. Slutskaya
    5. Bobek
    6. Gusmeroli
    7. Chen
    8. Hubert
    9. Liashenko
    10. Rechnio
    11. Sokolova
    12. Bonaly
     
  3. wristflick

    wristflick New Member

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    If you think Chen deserved the bronze that is fine but this is a ridiculous comment. You are grossly exagerrating the quality of her performance to say something like this.
     
  4. PashaFan

    PashaFan Well-Known Member

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    I remember being okay with the Chen bronze even though I loved & still do love Butyrskaya. But I was still taking in everything that had gone on that night (morning here in London) with the Lipinski/Kwan result. So I think I kinda brushed the -Who should get the bronze debate-away.
    I have watched the event several times online over the past couple of years & still am okay with it. I think because I liked Chen so much as a personality & skater that her having another bronze was a perfect reward after everything she had been through with the injuries & I admired her so much for her reaction to her short program at the 97' Worlds.
    It's a pity Butyrskaya could not have skated better in SLC.
     
  5. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Active Member

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    It was more a shame that Butyrskaya couldnt skate better in Nagano than SLC. Nagano was her medal shot and she blew it. She never had a hope of a medal in SLC. Hughes, Kwan, Slutskaya, and Cohen were the contenders there. It is too bad there was no 2000 Olympics. She would have been a medal lock and a gold medal contender had there been.
     
  6. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    I'm surprised at how much people are bashing Lulu's artistry... Her LP was a masterpiece, and it was right up there with her 94-95 and 95-96 LPs, if not better.
     
  7. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Well you know that's the thing about the Olympics. It's all about timing. Have you have ever wondered what all of the outcomes would have been if there was never a 1994 Olympics in Lillehammer to make the summer and winter Olympics 2 years apart from each other instead of the same year? Michelle probably would have won the Olympics in 1996 (and Lulu would probably have the bronze). Then we would have had Olympics in 2000, 2004, 2008, and 2012. And Mao would have had a decent shot at the gold medal in 2008, while Yuna would have won in 2012.
     
  8. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    she did go to both as the recently crowned euro champ, but in 98 she had 1 euro title and nothing else but a wildly inconsistent record to her name. In 02 she was a 3 time euro champ, a 3 time world medalist, and a world champion. One can even make a case for "wuz robbed" of bronze in 01. She may have been "old" in 02, but she was much more of a "head case" in 98.
     
  9. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Actually coming into Nagano, she already has had 2 top 5 finishes at Worlds, more top 5 finishes at Euros including a bronze and a gold, and a bunch of GP medals and GPF showings (and 1 medal) under her belt, not to mention a multiple National Champion. She was definitely one of the top contenders for the bronze in Nagano and one of the more stable / consistent ones. Comparatively:

    Chen was an unknown because of her crappy 1997 Worlds showing and less than solid fall / GP season.

    Slutskaya was ofcourse a World medalist and Euro champ and therefore another huge threat for the bronze but IIRC Butyrskaya had beat her many times that season, as recent as Euros and she wasn't exactly on form that season. I would think Russia would be equally politiking for both of them to medal.

    Bobek was a medal threat because of her Nationals performances but she was even more inconsistent, especially on the internationally stage.

    Despite being a reigning World medalist, Gusmeroli was relatively new and her results were nowhere near Butyrskaya's. Bonaly had lost her tricks and Hubert was as inconsistent as always.

    -

    Butyrskaya was a medal threat too in 2002, but probably not as hot as Hughes who beat her and even Kwan and Slutskaya that season, could throw out 6 / 7 triples and 3/3s (albeit cheated) like no one's business, and Russia went full force politiking for Slutskaya to win instead. She was very much alone and didn't even skate that strongly at that GP season and only won Euros because Sluskaya made mistakes in the short.

    Overall I think her better shot was 1998.
     
  10. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    Maria's chances from 1998 to 2002 are interesting. She had the easier path to the bronze in 2002. Had she skated to just 75% of her potential she would have won the bronze no matter how everyone else skated, and with how the competition went even 60% of her best would have won it for her. Unfortunately she did about 55% of her best in the long program (was still robbed IMO).

    2002 she had a lower chance of winning bronze than 1998. However she had much more chance of gold or silver than 1998. It wasnt a high chance but in 1998 doing better than bronze was almost 0. In 2002 going in she maybe had 25% chance of atleast bronze, but 10% of silver or better, and maybe 3% chance of gold. So the odds were very low to win gold or silver but there was atlast a chance unlike 1998. She had beaten every top skater that quad, beaten Slutskaya many times, only beaten Kwan once but led her in the short program and had numerous chances to beat her. With how the competition was skated if she skated a clean long program she probably would have won the gold over Hughes for instance.
     
  11. taf2002

    taf2002 flower lady

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    I thought the LP was placed fairly among those 3. In my mind it was the short that was skewed so badly. I would have had it Michelle/ Maria or Maria/Michelle, & then Tara. Maria skating first & Tara being reigning World Champion led to that result I think. However, the judges were more than ready to place Maria on the podium but IMO her LP was disasterous. She was stiff & she made mistakes. Chen's jumps weren't that good but her presentation was wonderful.
     
  12. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    Another thing about Bute in 02 was the judges were clearly no longer on her side by that point. In 98 she was a top contender for that medal, but by the next quad she was overpassed for a medal over Hughes at worlds, and generally speaking was consistently losing to her. She no longer was considered the contender Slute and Kwan, and now Hughes and Cohen were ataining. All considering she did pretty good in her last Olympics and for her age at that time.
     
  13. Gabybackhand

    Gabybackhand Member

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    I agree that in 2002 her chances for gold or silver were better than 98, but in 98 her chances for bronze were higher than 2002. So better chance depends on whether you mean better chance to win or better chance to medal.

    Everyone seems to agree with a decent skate she has the bronze in 98 easy, but probably couldnt do any better than that. In 2002 though it is more intersting to wonder. With how Kwan and Slutskaya had problems, how would she have done if she skated her best. Could she have even beaten Hughes for the gold? Would she have atleast medalled, either silver over Slutskaya or bronze over Kwan?
     
  14. shady82

    shady82 Active Member

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    I don't think Butyrskaya was contending for more than bronze in 2002. The picture was very fuzzy because Butyrskaya had a rough GP season (losing to Hughes at the GPF), but then she beat Slutskaya at Europeans (where neither skated very well). Moreover, Maria was past her prime that year - she was lacking in speed, her elements had deteriorated somewhat in quality, and her jumps were less consistent. Maria at her prime, skating to her potential, would certainly have won gold at SLC. Think Maria at the 1999 Worlds (SP+LP), which would have placed at least 4th in the SP and easily 1st in the LP in SLC. Hughes didn't get a single 5.9 for her LP. Scene d'Amour skated to her potential would have won the SP at SLC as well.
     
  15. Gabybackhand

    Gabybackhand Member

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    So basically Maria needed an Olympics in 2000 to have a chance at gold or even silver. Either 1998 or 2002 it was bronze at best case scenario for her? Lets just say hypothetically she did one of her good short programs from that season at the Games (not her rather weak but clean SP in SLC) and combined it with a clean LP as unlikely as that was. Where would the judges have placed her vs a skate of her life Hughes, shaky and flawed and unusually slow Slutskaya, and Kwan with a fall and not great skate.
     
  16. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    The Nagano bronze had about 12 equally eligible ladies all competing for it. It was like its own mini olys. The SLC bronze was going to either Maria or Sarah.
     
  17. shady82

    shady82 Active Member

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    Or Sasha. Judging by the marks given, Sasha would have even won gold if she didn't fall on her 3-3.
     
  18. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Given how Kwan and Slute skated, that's a real possibility, but for some reason I don't think the judges would have have given it to her.
     
  19. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    Given how Kwan skated one could argue Sasha deserved bronze over Kwan. That was a tight Kwan both in sp and lp
     
  20. Gabybackhand

    Gabybackhand Member

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    Who are those 12 ladies? I can only think about 5 at best. Anyway Maria skated so bad in Nagano and still lost the bronze by .1 so obviously that was her easier medal opportunity.
     
  21. Gabybackhand

    Gabybackhand Member

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    I agree. They would have gone with Hughes over Cohen in 2002 due to Hughes's superior rep at the time. The only reason Cohen beat Hughes in the SP is her SP was so much better they had no choice. Most thought Hughes's short program sucked and it was a joke she was even 4th.
     
  22. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I don't think Kwan was tight in the SP at all. She had that Flip, but otherwise she sold that routine. The problem was that Kwan sort of outgrew that routine.

    It's arguable that Kwan should have been behind Cohen and Suguri, but I also think it's arguable that she should have been ahead of Slutskaya as well. It was just a close-one. After the fall, Kwan did well. Shame she had to tack on that extra triple toe loop at the end which took away from the ending of that routine. IMO, Cohen's Carmen was the worst choreographed LP of that final group save for Sebestyen. It looked improvised or something.
     
  23. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    I agree Cohens Carmen was completely forgettable. She had to go 100 perecent clean with that to have any chance of a medal, which of course was not gonna happen.
     
  24. Gabybackhand

    Gabybackhand Member

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    Poor Fumie was definitely robbed in SLC in both the SP and LP. She belonged on that podium. She belonged on it over Slutskaya's awful skate in Turin too even though her own LP was kind of blah and not clean there either.
     
  25. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

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    I agree about Cohen but I thought that that Sebestyen's program was rather well choreographed. Same for Slutskaya and Kwan. I found Hughes rather boring and bland, though, while Suguri's Moonlight Sonata was a masterpiece.

    By ranking of LP choreos in SLC:

    Excellent: Suguri
    Good: Kwan, Slutskaya, Sebestyen
    Average: Butyrskaya, Hughes
    Mediocre: Cohen
     
  26. shady82

    shady82 Active Member

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    I thought Suguri's Moonlight Sonata was a masterpiece as well. It suited her very well, and highlighted her lightness and speed. The footwork sequence, transition after her flying sit, and scratch spin were gush-worthy.

    I would say Kwan's program is far better than Slutskaya's incoherent Tosca. Sebestyen's program wasn't badly choreographed, but the choreography wasn't hard and was lacking in expression. After Kwan, I would say Butyrskaya, Slutskaya/Sebestyen/Cohen. I agree Sasha's program was front-loaded and had more 'wow' moves than sophisticated choreography, but her delivery and attitude more than made up for it.

    I think Hughes was a clear winner, while 2-5 (Kwan, Slutskaya, Cohen, Suguri) were all close. In the end, I think the results came down to politics, reputation, and skate order. So maybe Fumie got the unfair end of the stick for her relatively low rep and early skating order, but I wouldn't say she was 'robbed'. I really do think Sasha would have won gold if she landed that 3/3 - even with the fall, a couple judges still placed her above Sarah.