Bronze medal at the 98 Olympics- Slutskaya, Chen, or Butyrskaya

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by butyrskafanatic, Jul 14, 2013.

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Who should have been given bronze by judges for their skates in Nagano

  1. Butyrskaya

    84 vote(s)
    53.5%
  2. Slutskaya

    53 vote(s)
    33.8%
  3. Chen

    64 vote(s)
    40.8%
  4. someone else

    29 vote(s)
    18.5%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. JJS5056

    JJS5056 New Member

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    You didn't misunderstand- the post in question contradicts itself throughout. It says that no system considers under-rotation worse, but then goes on to justify reasons for discrediting Lu's cheated jumps. I think the intended point, based on other posts, is that the system considered chested jumps as flawed, but that the judges chose to ignore them.

    Regardless, "slight" touch-downs were considered 2-footed, flawed and were not credited under 6.0; that's not really debatable. Thus, Maria's lutz and flip would not have been considered completed triple jumps.

    Underrotations, OTOH, weren't as cut and dry, as evidenced by all the discussion here and by the wide range of marks for Lu and similar instances, like many of Bonaly's free skates. The most likely scenario is that anything less than 1/2 turn cheat was considered a minor mistake, but that the jump was still counted albeit with less credit, similar to a hand down. Lu was probably given credit for all but the final triple toe (and triple flip), with maybe a few judges considering one of the lutzes as being lower quality. The toe, sal and loop were all fine under 6.0 - and I think the lutzes were, as well.
  2. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    My marks would have produced the same results

    Lipinski: 5.9/5.9
    Kwan: 5.8/5.9
    Chen: 5.6/5.8
    Butyr: 5.7/5.7
    Slutsk: 5.8/5.6
  3. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I am surprised Slutskaya has more votes than Chen. Even if some think Chen was gifted, Slutskaya should have been about 8th in the short program so how can she even be a valid consideration of people, even if some think her long was worthy of 3rd place. Maybe alot forget her short program performance in Nagano:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJKs2kaJlyc

    How on earth was she over people like Bonaly, Malinina, Liashenko, and even in contention for a medal:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qapvKT19J7U
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcnhYjmc-Cw
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFrzG9p_Xs0

    Chen`s short was kind of weak too but was still clean, and probably did do barely enough to keep her in contention for the bronze atleast. Although Bonaly and Malinina could easily be argued to have been over her in the short as well, especialy Bonaly. Malinina realistically probably didnt have the name to be placed above.
  4. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    Who are the people voting as other voting for. Were there are any other skaters who skated well enough for a medal in Nagano. I didnt see all the women. How did Gusermoli and ones like her skate. I didnt see her short or long but she was the reigning World medal winner but unable to come close to those medal again at the Games.
  5. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

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    This thread is not about how the 1998 competition was handled by the judges and why but how one personally would have judged under the system in place (6.0), and I have already mentioned those rules in the SP that were actually quite harsh towards underrotation.

    If you seriously think that e.g. a lutz that was 1/3 turn short of rotation should get seen as a credited jump only of lesser quality (similar to a jump with a hand-down) then our discussion ends here because aparently we have a totally POV of what figure skating is about (IMO, every jump that was 1/8 or less underroated was fine but maybe of lesser quality than a fully rotated jump while 1/4 was already a serious mistake and more than that already close to getting no credit at all. Why do you think CoP considers triple jumps with 1/3 underrotation count as overrated doubles which get hardly any points? Because they suddenly decided that underrotations should be considered harshly? No, they always should have punished hardly but the rules were not enforced under 6.0 for reasons I have already mentioned several times).
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2013
  6. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    Well the judges gave Chen the scores and the bronze so they must have felt she had more clean triples and less serious mistakes under 98 thinking than Maria, and that even if Irina had better jumping than both her artistry and short program were too bad for a medal. Judges are huge experts on skating and probably know more than all of us.
  7. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Because Sarah Hughes won the gold medal and people were bitter about it, so the powers that be through IJS (at least from 2008-2010) tried to retroactively delegitimize her win for the benefit of another skater. Of course that lead to huge problems, so they scaled it back a bit after Vancouver. :p

    Anyway, the judges in Nagano were well-versed in the rules and probably know more about what was supposed to be rewarded and what wasn't in the LP as opposed to the SP than any poster here. And with that, the judges rewarded Chen the bronze medal with mid-5s all-across her technical merit mark (compare that to her SP tech marks which were lower). I'm sure all nine judges didn't just choose to ignore it or didn't see it. They probably made a good faith effort to judge Chen's performance according to the rules at the time (with some natural bias playing here and there).
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2013
  8. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    Actually it is debatable, because there were times at least some of the judges seemed willing to overlook the slight toe-scrape two foot. You are right the rulebook said they should only give credit for jumps landed on one foot, but once the ISU introduced the distinction between a two-footed landing and the slight two-foot for SP deductions, it kind of carried over into FS judging.

    I think before the advent of instant replay for the tech specialists, it was too difficult to judges to be sure about quarter turn or less URs, especially if the jump was at the far end of the ice, especially if the skater had decent flow out of the jump. They surely would not have given credit for an obvious UR (which would start a lot less than 180, more like 90 degrees). When it comes to blades, the judges don't have as good a view as we usually get from the TV camera. So, they tended to give the skater the benefit of the doubt.

    I'm not sure you are right about a hand down. That makes it a jump not landed on 1 foot and I think it did cost the skater credit for the jump under 6.0. I remember Scott Hamilton making a big deal about one of Petrenko's jumps in Albertville (the SP 3Lz, maybe?) when he leaned way forward but did not put his hand down, like that made a huge difference.
  9. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

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    Useing that argument, we should stop any discussion about the judging because the judges are so much more trained and knowledgable than any poster here blah blah..personally, I'm not even believing that and this rather strange argument is not going to prevent me from discussing the judges marks.



    Then please give me a logical explaination why Chen's marks in the LP were so much better than in the SP even though she underrotated almost all triple jumps. Her marks in the LP were indeed quite consistant all with 5.5s and one 5.6 and one 5.7, and those are IMO about the marks she would have gotten for all different clean triple jumps except for the flip and no triple-triple combination. What really happened IMO was that the judges indeed noticed the badly ur'ed last triple toe (that was hard to miss) but they completely missed the ur'ed lutzes, loop and sal because otherwise those marks make no sense.
  10. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Because you're making a procedural argument about what was credited and valued under the judging system in place in Nagano as if you're an authority on the issue. This is separate from a more substantive argument about whether Lu Chen should have received credit for her jumps from a personal standpoint or from an "ideal" standpoint. It'd be one thing if the judges were all over the place but the tech. marks were incredibly consistent.

    I argue all the time that the judges are wrong, but I can't say that they were wrong with the rules in place, only that the system on which they we're working with allowed them give such marks. (I.e. Klimova/Ponomarenko's under markings from 1986-1988 and the Duschenays over marking afterward).

    As to the point differential from the SP and LP... I guess subjective things like skate order and presentation played a role, but also the fact that SPs tended to be more harshly judged from a technical element analysis standpoint because that was the idea behind the SP. The LP shifted more weight to other things and Chen had more elements that she more or less completed in comparison to her competitors by the time she had skated and the judges took that into account as well.
  11. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Chen's technical marks were very consistent. All 5.5 to 5.7 with mostly 5.5 and 5.6. It was Maria's who were all over the place, mostly 5.5s as well, but as low as a couple of 5.4s IIRC, and as high as a 5.8 from one judge who gave her a higher technical mark than clean 7 triple Michelle (although the judge had Kwan ahead overall 5.7, 5.9 to 5.8, 5.8). Obviously the two foot landings made Maria's technical harder to judge under 6.0 thinking than Chen's barely UR jumps. Two foot landings under 6.0 were a worse mistake period. Chen's 2nd mark was also very consistent, mostly all 5.8s with a couple 5.7s. Butyrskaya's 2nd mark was also all over the place, from several 5.5s to several 5.8s, which again isnt surprising given the well choreographed program but skated very tenatively and uneasily. Slutskaya's marks were also much more consistent, almost all 5.7s and 5.6s on both sets.
  12. mustafinabars

    mustafinabars Member

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    Definitely Maria. I would score Butyrskaya 5.7 technical, 5.8 presentation. Chen 5.4 technical, 5.7 presentation. Slutskaya 5.8 technical, 5.6 presentation. I would credit Chen for 5 clean triples and 2 other decent attempts at triples and 2 clean triple lutzes. The quality of her jumps and spins are so poorer compared to others in the top 6 though she would still get a lower technical merit score. Her artistry was very good but nothing amazing by then, overrated as well by her reputation from years past.
  13. mustafinabars

    mustafinabars Member

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    Of course it wasnt in the U.S. Nobody in the U.S cared who won the bronze once Bobek and the overhyped never going to happen U.S sweep was off the cards.
  14. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

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    I'm only posting my opinion about the judging based on what I read in the rule book. I'm not claiming to be more of an authority than other human being.



    The judges missed underrotations in the past before lots of times...see Sarah Hughes or Kwan's flip in SLC...the fact that the different judges gave similar marks to Chen's LP in Nagano tells us absolutely nothing so this is not an argument.
  15. mustafinabars

    mustafinabars Member

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    The bronze to Chen I always felt was a make up gift for other times they robbed her in her career, especialy the 96 Worlds. The big loser though was Maria who was robbed of a bronze medal for the 3rd straight major event of her career- 96 Worlds, 97 Worlds, and 98 Olympics. She was robbed so often one could say she was a bank. Even with the robbing though she would have won the bronze at each of those 3 events with just one less mistake, so the was screwed by the judges and by herself 3 times in a row. Such an unlucky skater.
  16. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    You're the one who made the first initial statement about no scoring system existing that valued URs over two-foots when it may not have been the case. Also, a consensus shows us that no matter where they ultimately ranked Chen, the judges all agreed where her tech marks belonged. If the scoring system truly deducted for URs the way you said they did, then you'd see much more disparity between the judges because I can't believe all 9 judges ignored or didn't see her URs.
  17. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

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    In this thread I already quoted the rule book for the deductions for underrotation in the SP so I think this should be proof enough. Of course if you want to negate what is written in the rule book then you are free to do so.
  18. JJS5056

    JJS5056 New Member

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    A hand down definitely did not negate a jump 6.0 in the long program; hand down, three turn(s) on landing and a touch-down of the free foot (after landing the jump...more of a loss of balance) were all considered minor flaws (~.1 in the SP) and skaters still received credit for completing the jump.

    You are right in that 1/2 turn was probably an exaggeration. My point still stands that in the free program, only severe underrotations would ever be questioned in terms of credit. (The following is directed more toward David21) The rules for the short program are irrelevant; there was a deduction in the short for a flutz, as well, but that doesn't mean that flutzes were not considered completed triple jumps in the free. The two prorams were judged completely different- the SP was deduction-based, while in the free/long, elements were additive; in the SP, a two-footed jump was treated differently from a fall (~.2 vs. ~.4), while they were treated the same in the long (with neither counting toward the technical mark).
  19. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

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    Skaters did receive PARTIAL credit for a jump with a hand-down or 3-turn in the LP, yes.



    If underrotation in SP is worthy of a heavy deduction, then it would belogical to assume that underrotated jumps in the LP would also at least get only partial credit as well. Of course it always depends on the extent of the underrotation. This is no different from e.g. a flutz. Of course different judges interpret rules differently so they might not deduct as harshly as I would do for flutzing or underrotation. But in some way, flutzing and underrotation are similar because in both cases some mistakes from the skaters would not be noticed by the judges because otherwise some marks (especially in the SPs) could not be explained.

    But why not stick to the competition discussed here: My initial point in this thread was that it is ridiculous to assume that Maria's lutz and flip were "badly two-footed" (when in fact they might not even had a touch down of the free leg) while Chen supposedly landed 5 clean triple jumps (when in fact all of them except 1 were underrotated and some of them by more than 1/4). I'm sorry but a lutz that is lacking more than 1/4 rotation is not a clean jump and should not get full credit in the LP.
    And a 2.75 triple salchow should not get that, either.
  20. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    If judges took URs that seriously then Hughes whose 2002 Olympic LP jumps were much worse and more badly underrotated than Chen's in 98 (apart from one) wouldnt have even medaled in SLC, let alone won. I still dont think Chen deserved the bronze in Nagano over Butyrskaya or even Slutskaya since the quality of her jumps, spins, and overall technical skating were inferior to others at the very top by then even when she made less mistakes and landed more, and I think even her artistry was exagerrated by that point, but I do think the judges were correct in crediting her for 5 clean triples.

    Some of you are forgetting it wasnt COP in 1998. As for strict rules who cares, most judges didnt follow 95% of the written code ever anyway. There were generally accepted rules and that was it. A jumps underrotated by a tenth or even quarter of a rotation being discredited was never one of those.
  21. ks1227

    ks1227 Active Member

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    I agree about Gusmeroli and Hubert. Hubert was being heavily touted by her federation and in the press after her win over Lipinski at Lalique and her first French national championship, and Gusmeroli had won a World bronze the previous year. I think they both would have been scored very highly in the short program if they had skated cleanly. Lu Chen on the other hand was coming off of a very rough patch.
  22. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Based on pecking order and political clout of their respective federations, as well as their actual skating and programs, I think top twelve after the short would be something like this if all went clean:

    1. Kwan
    2. Lipinski
    3. Butyrskaya (I really think she deserved second)
    4. Slutskaya
    5. Bobek
    6. Gusmeroli
    7. Chen
    8. Hubert
    9. Liashenko
    10. Rechnio
    11. Sokolova
    12. Bonaly
  23. wristflick

    wristflick New Member

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    If you think Chen deserved the bronze that is fine but this is a ridiculous comment. You are grossly exagerrating the quality of her performance to say something like this.
  24. PashaFan

    PashaFan Active Member

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    I remember being okay with the Chen bronze even though I loved & still do love Butyrskaya. But I was still taking in everything that had gone on that night (morning here in London) with the Lipinski/Kwan result. So I think I kinda brushed the -Who should get the bronze debate-away.
    I have watched the event several times online over the past couple of years & still am okay with it. I think because I liked Chen so much as a personality & skater that her having another bronze was a perfect reward after everything she had been through with the injuries & I admired her so much for her reaction to her short program at the 97' Worlds.
    It's a pity Butyrskaya could not have skated better in SLC.
  25. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    It was more a shame that Butyrskaya couldnt skate better in Nagano than SLC. Nagano was her medal shot and she blew it. She never had a hope of a medal in SLC. Hughes, Kwan, Slutskaya, and Cohen were the contenders there. It is too bad there was no 2000 Olympics. She would have been a medal lock and a gold medal contender had there been.
  26. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    I'm surprised at how much people are bashing Lulu's artistry... Her LP was a masterpiece, and it was right up there with her 94-95 and 95-96 LPs, if not better.
  27. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Well you know that's the thing about the Olympics. It's all about timing. Have you have ever wondered what all of the outcomes would have been if there was never a 1994 Olympics in Lillehammer to make the summer and winter Olympics 2 years apart from each other instead of the same year? Michelle probably would have won the Olympics in 1996 (and Lulu would probably have the bronze). Then we would have had Olympics in 2000, 2004, 2008, and 2012. And Mao would have had a decent shot at the gold medal in 2008, while Yuna would have won in 2012.
  28. berthesghost

    berthesghost New Member

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    she did go to both as the recently crowned euro champ, but in 98 she had 1 euro title and nothing else but a wildly inconsistent record to her name. In 02 she was a 3 time euro champ, a 3 time world medalist, and a world champion. One can even make a case for "wuz robbed" of bronze in 01. She may have been "old" in 02, but she was much more of a "head case" in 98.
  29. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Actually coming into Nagano, she already has had 2 top 5 finishes at Worlds, more top 5 finishes at Euros including a bronze and a gold, and a bunch of GP medals and GPF showings (and 1 medal) under her belt, not to mention a multiple National Champion. She was definitely one of the top contenders for the bronze in Nagano and one of the more stable / consistent ones. Comparatively:

    Chen was an unknown because of her crappy 1997 Worlds showing and less than solid fall / GP season.

    Slutskaya was ofcourse a World medalist and Euro champ and therefore another huge threat for the bronze but IIRC Butyrskaya had beat her many times that season, as recent as Euros and she wasn't exactly on form that season. I would think Russia would be equally politiking for both of them to medal.

    Bobek was a medal threat because of her Nationals performances but she was even more inconsistent, especially on the internationally stage.

    Despite being a reigning World medalist, Gusmeroli was relatively new and her results were nowhere near Butyrskaya's. Bonaly had lost her tricks and Hubert was as inconsistent as always.

    -

    Butyrskaya was a medal threat too in 2002, but probably not as hot as Hughes who beat her and even Kwan and Slutskaya that season, could throw out 6 / 7 triples and 3/3s (albeit cheated) like no one's business, and Russia went full force politiking for Slutskaya to win instead. She was very much alone and didn't even skate that strongly at that GP season and only won Euros because Sluskaya made mistakes in the short.

    Overall I think her better shot was 1998.
  30. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    Maria's chances from 1998 to 2002 are interesting. She had the easier path to the bronze in 2002. Had she skated to just 75% of her potential she would have won the bronze no matter how everyone else skated, and with how the competition went even 60% of her best would have won it for her. Unfortunately she did about 55% of her best in the long program (was still robbed IMO).

    2002 she had a lower chance of winning bronze than 1998. However she had much more chance of gold or silver than 1998. It wasnt a high chance but in 1998 doing better than bronze was almost 0. In 2002 going in she maybe had 25% chance of atleast bronze, but 10% of silver or better, and maybe 3% chance of gold. So the odds were very low to win gold or silver but there was atlast a chance unlike 1998. She had beaten every top skater that quad, beaten Slutskaya many times, only beaten Kwan once but led her in the short program and had numerous chances to beat her. With how the competition was skated if she skated a clean long program she probably would have won the gold over Hughes for instance.
  31. taf2002

    taf2002 Well-Known Member

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    I thought the LP was placed fairly among those 3. In my mind it was the short that was skewed so badly. I would have had it Michelle/ Maria or Maria/Michelle, & then Tara. Maria skating first & Tara being reigning World Champion led to that result I think. However, the judges were more than ready to place Maria on the podium but IMO her LP was disasterous. She was stiff & she made mistakes. Chen's jumps weren't that good but her presentation was wonderful.
  32. Lnt175

    Lnt175 New Member

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    Another thing about Bute in 02 was the judges were clearly no longer on her side by that point. In 98 she was a top contender for that medal, but by the next quad she was overpassed for a medal over Hughes at worlds, and generally speaking was consistently losing to her. She no longer was considered the contender Slute and Kwan, and now Hughes and Cohen were ataining. All considering she did pretty good in her last Olympics and for her age at that time.
  33. Gabybackhand

    Gabybackhand Member

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    I agree that in 2002 her chances for gold or silver were better than 98, but in 98 her chances for bronze were higher than 2002. So better chance depends on whether you mean better chance to win or better chance to medal.

    Everyone seems to agree with a decent skate she has the bronze in 98 easy, but probably couldnt do any better than that. In 2002 though it is more intersting to wonder. With how Kwan and Slutskaya had problems, how would she have done if she skated her best. Could she have even beaten Hughes for the gold? Would she have atleast medalled, either silver over Slutskaya or bronze over Kwan?
  34. shady82

    shady82 New Member

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    I don't think Butyrskaya was contending for more than bronze in 2002. The picture was very fuzzy because Butyrskaya had a rough GP season (losing to Hughes at the GPF), but then she beat Slutskaya at Europeans (where neither skated very well). Moreover, Maria was past her prime that year - she was lacking in speed, her elements had deteriorated somewhat in quality, and her jumps were less consistent. Maria at her prime, skating to her potential, would certainly have won gold at SLC. Think Maria at the 1999 Worlds (SP+LP), which would have placed at least 4th in the SP and easily 1st in the LP in SLC. Hughes didn't get a single 5.9 for her LP. Scene d'Amour skated to her potential would have won the SP at SLC as well.
  35. Gabybackhand

    Gabybackhand Member

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    So basically Maria needed an Olympics in 2000 to have a chance at gold or even silver. Either 1998 or 2002 it was bronze at best case scenario for her? Lets just say hypothetically she did one of her good short programs from that season at the Games (not her rather weak but clean SP in SLC) and combined it with a clean LP as unlikely as that was. Where would the judges have placed her vs a skate of her life Hughes, shaky and flawed and unusually slow Slutskaya, and Kwan with a fall and not great skate.
  36. berthesghost

    berthesghost New Member

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    The Nagano bronze had about 12 equally eligible ladies all competing for it. It was like its own mini olys. The SLC bronze was going to either Maria or Sarah.
  37. shady82

    shady82 New Member

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    Or Sasha. Judging by the marks given, Sasha would have even won gold if she didn't fall on her 3-3.
  38. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Given how Kwan and Slute skated, that's a real possibility, but for some reason I don't think the judges would have have given it to her.
  39. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    Given how Kwan skated one could argue Sasha deserved bronze over Kwan. That was a tight Kwan both in sp and lp
  40. Gabybackhand

    Gabybackhand Member

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    Who are those 12 ladies? I can only think about 5 at best. Anyway Maria skated so bad in Nagano and still lost the bronze by .1 so obviously that was her easier medal opportunity.