Bronze medal at the 98 Olympics- Slutskaya, Chen, or Butyrskaya

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by butyrskafanatic, Jul 14, 2013.

?

Who should have been given bronze by judges for their skates in Nagano

  1. Butyrskaya

    84 vote(s)
    53.5%
  2. Slutskaya

    53 vote(s)
    33.8%
  3. Chen

    64 vote(s)
    40.8%
  4. someone else

    29 vote(s)
    18.5%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2013
    Messages:
    166
    Who deserved the bronze at the 98 Olympics.

    Chen won it but it was very controversial at the time. Although Chen skated about 95% of her best at that time, and Butyrskaya and Slutskaya both only about 75% I would say both deserved the bronze more than her. Chen was a poor technical skater way past her prime, even though she made less technical mistakes than Butyrskaya and Slutskaya, and skated by far her best technical in years, but still weak comparatively even so. Her artistry was also overated by then. I would give it to Butyrskaya since her artistry is so much better than Slutskaya. My marks would be:

    Lipinski- 5.9 technical, 5.8 artistic presentation
    Kwan- 5.8 technical, 5.8 artistic presentation
    Butyrskaya- 5.6 technical, 5.9 artistic presentation
    Slutskaya- 5.8 technical, 5.5 artistic presentation
    Chen- 5.2 technical, 5.6 artistic presentation
  2. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,376
    I don't remember it was not controversial at the time. The commentators were happy for her (at least in my country).
    Anyway, I would have given it to Lu Chen too. She attempted a much more complex program, even if her jumps were barely landed. And her artistry was beautiful. ;)
    But I wouldn't have been disappointed with a bronze for Maria Butyrskaya.
  3. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    7,865
    They all did not skate well enough to be ranked significantly different technically, so asking which is better is like asking, "Which do you prefer, pie, cake, or a Little Debbie's snack?"
  4. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,315
    Slutskaya in the free skate was much better than the other two technically IMO, but by far the worst artistically, which still made it close between the three.
  5. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    7,865
    Chen did have the perceived 3/3, and that perception was good enough for an OGM at the next Olympics, so a bronze here seems fitting.
  6. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,315
    LOL that is true. Plus a perceived 2nd triple lutz. Jumps atleast as rotated as most of Hughes's jumps in 2002, minus the flutz and mule kick from the rodeo to boot.
  7. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,376
    Absolutely.
    I would rank them :
    technically : 1-Slutskaya, 2-Butyrskaya, 3-Lu Chen
    artistically : 1-Lu Chen, 2-Butyrskaya, 3-Slutskaya

    But the advantage for Lu Chen of attempting big tricks (more than Butyrskaya, at least).
  8. Lnt175

    Lnt175 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2005
    Messages:
    356
    I agree it could have gone either way between Bute and Chen. Slutskaya had the strongest jumps, but the rest of her skating was awful at that point. I think what the judges were swayed was Chens ability to still hit (relatively speaking the URS weren't a big deal back then) and her artistry. Bute was once again wonderful in the SP but felt more tentative in her LP program both technically and artisitically. No way does Maria deserve higher presentation marks that night than Kwan and Chen though.
  9. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    25,089
    Maria had a chance but she made too many mistakes in the LP. Wasn't Irina too far back to make up ground?

    Chen Lu won the bronze by default, IMO. Also it helped that she was coming back from a disastrous year, and was very emotional throughout.
  10. duane

    duane New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    2,173
    Lipinski - 5.9, 5.8
    Kwan - 5.7, 5.9
    Chen - 5.5, 5.9
    Butyrskaya - 5.4, 5.8

    I saw nothing controversial about the bronze medal outcome, nor remember it as being controversial. I thought Butterfly Lovers was yet another artistically beautiful program by Chen Lu, and that she was technically stronger than Maria.
  11. berthesghost

    berthesghost New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    Messages:
    4,890
    Was it controversial in Russia or something? Because in the US it wasn't one bit controversial at all.
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  12. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

    Joined:
    May 26, 2002
    Messages:
    2,603
    This..^
  13. alchemy void

    alchemy void Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2002
    Messages:
    3,391
    It wasn't controversial anywhere. Look at Butyrskaya's reaction after her skate...she knew she gave it away by chickening out on her last two jumping passes. It's only "controversial" when looking back at the event though a 2013 IJS lens.

    I am Butyrskaya's biggest fan, but she's lucky Slutskaya had the most god-awful LP that year (her SP was actually very good, though).
  14. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    9,933
    I don't know in what world Maria Butyrskaya's 1998 Nagano LP deserved a higher presentation mark than Kwan and Chen's LP, even though I do think a solid argument can be made to place Irina and Maria higher than Chen overall (though it's not a robbery by any means). It's not as if she skated her LP in the same way she had at 1999 Worlds.
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  15. Lnt175

    Lnt175 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2005
    Messages:
    356
    The fact that Chen even tried that 3/3 at the end was out of this world. Of course I don't think the judges gave her credit for that second triple (it was 2footed and short on rotations). Here was a skater who was out of the picture for a whole season, and barely won a medal at NHK earlier that year, and she had a full arsenal of jumps.
    I agree its hard to look at this event through an IJS lens (to a certain extent even 2002 ladies SP at the Olympics but that was controversial under any scoring system) butt the judges were not scoring down Chens jumps in the LP except that second triple toe at the end of her combination.
  16. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    Joined:
    May 9, 2002
    Messages:
    11,236
    Chen had by far the best program and performance of the three even though most of her jumps were flawed. She did attempt and stand up on 7 triples (OK 6 if you don't count the 2nd 3toe). Bute was stiff and didn't even do a true jump combo, and only 5 triples many of which were 2foot suspects. Slute had the most speed and content but was worst in presentation among the three. She also had the least footwork of the three.

    I think most judges had it right that it should have gone:

    Chen 5.5/5.8

    Bute 5.6/5.7

    Slute 5.7/5.6

    [moot] And I know it shouldn't work this way, but Slute only did a 2/2 in the short but made top 5 only because other better skaters made mistakes too (Bobek, Gusmeroli, Hubert) so there is no way I would give her the bronze even if I felt she deserved 3rd in the free. Bute had the better short but it wasn't so good that she deserved the overall bronze over Chen given how stiff she was in the free.

    [aside] 15 years later, I think the bronze medal decision is correct, but I wish Bute had had an Olympic bronze to show for her career. Between 1996 to 2002, she was consistently a top 4 kind of skater. She wasn't at all dominated by Slute during 2000 to 2002, occasionally beating her at Euros and outskating her at that infamous NHK. Ultimately I don't think Slute was that much better a skater or competitior to warrant 2 Olympic medals to Bute's none. Perhaps if the Olympics had done 1996, 2000 and 2004, she would have a chance in 2000.
  17. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2009
    Messages:
    6,340
    I also don't read a lot of controversy into it just how totally close it was! It was almost a three way tie! That meant things were written about how any of the three could have won the bronze. It was not controversial that Chen did that I read but I am not in Russia or Europe or whatever. But even outside of Russia and Europe or whatever it was a lot about how close it was! It was really close. That lead to explanations about how the slutskaya got threes and butyrskaya got threes and how CHen just edged them out.
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2013
  18. darya_russian

    darya_russian Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2005
    Messages:
    560
    I too don't remeber any controversy. Chen even with her mistakes was better than the other two.
  19. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    9,933
    Yeah, it's amazing to think that Chen got mostly 4th place votes whole Butryskaya had 4 3rd place votes. If I remember correctly, if one more judge had placed Bute ahead of Chen to give Bute at least one more 4th place vote, she could have gotten the bronze.
  20. dawnie

    dawnie Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2004
    Messages:
    343
    Chen should have received straight 3rd place ordinals even with the questionable jumps. It was clear most of the judges would have given it to Maria so she really did herself in that night. Irina's program was awful including the horrid dress.

    On an emotional level, it was nice to see Chen finish her career with another Olympic medal after all she went through.
  21. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    Messages:
    107
    I voted for both Chen and Slutskaya since I think it could have gone to either of them.

    I do remember some complaining at the time Maria didnt get the bronze, and I dont think anyone would have complained if she did. However I think her performance is overrated and kind of sucked. She landed only 2 of her planned 7 triples cleanly, or 3 if we credit the majorly shaky triple loop. She had 5 mistakes, and didnt even attempt a 2nd triple lutz or triple-triple. She badly two footed both her triple lutz and triple flip, and doubled her last 2 planned triples. Chen landed 7 triples, 5 of them clean, and had only 2 mistakes, and both 2 triple lutzes clean, and a triple-triple ableit not totally clean. I know Chen had poor quality jumps and really poor spins, but she did attempt and complete much more technical content, and had many fewer mistakes than Maria, and artistic wise her skate was her best unlike Maria. Slutskaya had 5 triples and a triple-triple, and the program was charming and suited to her style although her artistic was somewhat poor back then.

    Artistically Maria's performance was about 50% as strong as her 98 Europeans, 99 Worlds, and even 98 Worlds performances, so to give her a higher 2nd mark than Kwan or Chen is to say her performances at those other events must have been twice as artistic as Kwan and Chen's Olympic programs. That Maria lost the bronze by .1 with such a terrible performance shows the judges were always planning to have her on the podium with Kwan and Lipinski that year and she choked and blew it. Sometimes the judges have hard done Maria but in this occasion she had nobody to blame but herself, and I am surprised so many think she should have gotten the bronze with such a terrible skate.

    Here is how I mark the two programs:

    Short- Maria 5.7 tech, 5.8 art. Chen 5.2 tech, 5.6 art. Slutskaya 4.8 tech., 5.5 art
    Long- Maria 5.4 tech., 5.7 art, Chen 5.5 or 5.6 tech., 5.8 art., Slutskaya 5.8 tech., 5.6 art.
  22. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2002
    Messages:
    2,029

    No offense but I'd really like to know which competition you were watching where Butyrskaya landed only two clean triples while Chen had 5 clean ones. And how exactly did Butyrska "badly twofoot" her lutz and flip when in fact it was only a slight touch-down in both cases (even though in fact the lutz looked clean to me but it is hard to tell).

    Let's have a look Chen and her "clean" triple jumps:

    3lutz-2toe: lutz almost half a turn short so we already have the first clear mistake here
    3flip: underrotated and step-out, not much credit to give here
    2axel: only slightly underrotated
    3lutz: about 1/4 short and shaky landing, no bad attempt but not clean
    3loop: lacking 1/4
    3salchow: lacking 1/4 again
    3toe2.5toe: first jump looked clean to me but this wasn't even close to being a triple-triple

    So this program had 1-3 clean triple jumps depending on how harsh you are with underrotation.
    Presentation-wise, it was a nice program and I have no problem with the judges who gave Chen a 5.9 in the 2nd mark. But technically, this program was a disaster and not anywhere near the same level as of the LP's of Butyrskaya or Slutskaya.

    As for the question who should have been 3rd in the FS, this is a no-brainer to me: Slutskya had the best performance of the 3 skaters in this discussion and a real triple-triple late in the program. Butyrskaya had a more mature program but she looked stiff and nervous during it and skated it much better in other competitions.

    I don't know who should have gotten the bronze medal since Slutskaya had a big mistake in the SP (should have been behind Bonaly and Malinina there), but considering Chen already didn't have a great SP it definitely should not have been here, so it should have been Slutskaya or Butyrskaya.

    My marks in the FS:

    Chen 5.0/5.8
    Butrskya 5.4/5.7
    Slutskaya 5.8/5.6
  23. BmcC102

    BmcC102 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2002
    Messages:
    542
    I think there's only now controversy over the bronze because we've now experienced COP; with our current judging system in mind, some feel that Bute should have gotten bronze. Although people in this thread are giving their scores on a 6.0 scale, they're still analyzing jumps with their COP-savy eyes. Under 6.0, it was all about the ordinals, so the scores Chen got were relative to what others had done that night.

    Personally, I feel Chen was SO much better artistically than Butyrskaya that it was fine for Chen to get the bronze. Actually, the overall impression I get, both technically and artistically combined, is better for Chen. Trying to analyze exactly how underrotated a jump was for a competition from 1998 is pretty silly, IMO. The only jump that was probably considered to be problematically cheated was the second "3t," which was obvious to the naked eye. The other cheats were really only important to the majorly obsessed fans.
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2013
  24. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,448
    ITA. When Lu was skating well, there was, IMO, no aspect in which stiff legged, clunky-footed Butryskaya's "artistry" was better, especially in such a mistake-filled and disappointing program.

    I had not ever heard much controversy over this medal either (nor should there have been any).
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2013
  25. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2002
    Messages:
    2,029

    If you are talking about me :p ;) then I can only say that my assessments have nothing to do with CoP. Under the 6.0 judging, in the SP, underrotation of a jump was meant to be 0.2-0.3 deduction, so the same what skaters got for a step-out. Underrotation by 1/4 or more (and this is what Chen did several times) is more than just a reduction in quality, it is a fundamental flaw.



    But you still have to give out those ordinals in accordance to the rules. Just because under 6.0 lots of judges were not able to spot underrotation, that doesn't mean the the actual rules concerning underrotation should be ignored.



    The other cheats *should* have been important to the judges as well according to the rules but the judges either chose to ignore or just didn't see the cheats.
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2013
  26. Lnt175

    Lnt175 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2005
    Messages:
    356
    The judges did not see Hughes cheats in 2002 either.
    Also Butyrskayas slight two-footing was also a fundamental flaw. Had Bute landed the last 2 triples she would have won the medal over Chen, but her program sank towards the end.
  27. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    Joined:
    May 9, 2002
    Messages:
    11,236
    I remembers posters from the past saying that 6.0 regards 2 foots as a much bigger mistake than URs. The most important thing is a 1 foot landing, preferably with flow.

    With that, Bute's lutz and flip both looked questionably low with the free foot. For Chen, only the sal was suspect whereas the others were landed on 1 foot. Another issue is jump combination. Bute did not have 1 true combination, only 2 sequences. Chen on the other hand did 2 (and Slute 3).

    And since the second mark is the tie breaker and Bute was noticeably nervous and stiff throughout, I think the placement was fair. Comparing the confidence in the 1999 Worlds free and the stiffness in the 1998 Olympics free, one can understand why one garned 5.9s and the other 5.7s at best.
  28. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,436
    Had both Irinia Slutskaya and Nicole Bobek skated clean short programs, Lu Chen might have been too far behind after the short program to win a medal.
    There were others that might have placed ahead too with better short programs (Vanessa Gusmeroli? Latetia Hubert?)
  29. BmcC102

    BmcC102 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2002
    Messages:
    542
    I think Marco is correct. It is my impression that under 6.0, a two-footed landing pretty much negated the jump, but a slightly under rotated jump w/ a one foot landing was seen as 'saving' the jump.

    For me, I am still of that thought process, which might be one reason why I dislike CoP technical scoring...
  30. Sasha is DIVINE

    Sasha is DIVINE New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2002
    Messages:
    680
    I thought Butyrskaya was robbed at the time and I still feel that way. The only Lu Chen LP I love is her 93-94 one, except for her Rachmaninoff which is a masterpiece. All the rest are a bit overrated to me, artistically. And as has already been mentioned in the thread, her jumping was pretty poor in 98. A lot of those jumps were underrotated, especially her joke of a 3toe-3toe at the end.
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2013
  31. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2013
    Messages:
    166
    I also thought Maria should have been 2nd in the short and Lu 5th behind Bonaly which would have guaranteed Maria beating Lu overall anyway. My short marks were:

    Kwan- 5.8, 6.0
    Maria- 5.7, 5.8
    Tara- 5.7, 5.6
    Surya- 5.5, 5.5
    Lu- 5.1, 5.6

    Lu was also super lucky there werent more clean shorts. Her program could easily have been 9th or 10th place had it been a well skated event. Maria would have at worst been 4th or 5th only since she was unlucky to skate so early, and could still have been 3rd in the short even had everyone skated well.
  32. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2002
    Messages:
    2,029

    There is no judging system in the world, especially not 6.0, where jumps, which *might* have had a sligh touch down of the free foot (this is different from a "two foot landing"), were considered cleaner than jumps which were underroated. And in Chen's case, some of her jumps were not slightly underroated, they were BADLY underrotated.
  33. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    9,933
    Except in the system that awarded Chen the bronze over Butryskaya. You can say five of the nine judges misapplied the rules in place, but she received consistent tech marks all around.
  34. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2012
    Messages:
    694
    Under 6.0 thinking Chen had 5 clean triples and 7 credible attempts of triples. 2 clean triple lutzes, and a clean triple-toe, with a not clean triple-triple. Butyrskaya under 6.0 thinking had 3 clean triples and 5 credible attempts of triples. Butyrskaya also skated far below her artistic potential and was stiff, slow, nervous. Maria had atleast the bronze in the bag, and had she duplicated her 99 Worlds performance she might have even snatched a few votes higher and flipped the ordinal between Kwan and Lipinski to make Michelle the winner (well that was my hope and prayer watching at the time anyway), but she gave it away with a very weak performance. I dont know why people dont just accept she gave away the medal by skating poorly, rather than making excuses for why she didnt win it.

    Had Maria landed her triple lutz cleanly and still made all her other mistakes she would have gotten the bronze. Had Maria landed her triple flip cleanly and still made all her other mistakes she would have gotten the bronze. Had Maria done her last triple toe she would have gotten the bronze. Had Maria done her last triple loop she would have gotten the bronze. Had Maria landed her first triple loop well and tacked a double toe on it she would have gotten the bronze. Had Maria skated with a smidge more artistry and conviction that night she would have gotten the bronze. She had countless chances to make up the points and did everything possible to lose it.

    Chen would have come about 8th at those Games if everyone did their best but she was the only one besides Tara to truly skate her best at that event and she capatilized on others underperforming. She was super lucky I agree, but it wasnt her fault. Maria skated very poorly, and Irina did too when one factors in her short program, and both still nearly beat her. Bobek with her U.S National performances probably would have even beaten her.

    Chen was never one to get gifts by judges anyway. She even was robbed a few times in her career, like the 93 and 96 Worlds.
  35. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2012
    Messages:
    694
    There were many times in her career Maria was hard done by judges, including the 96 and 97 Worlds and that is probably why some are arguing her being robbed at the 98 Olympics too. However unlike those other events she did herself in. In those other events it was the judges, but in Nagano the judges were willing to reward her, and that is shown by how high they scored her even for such a weak performance that was nowhere near her best either technically or artistically.
  36. orientalplane

    orientalplane Mad for mangelwurzels

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2005
    Messages:
    10,634
    You're quite right; well said. Kim should have got the medal, even though she was just mastering the transition from crawling to standing at the time.
    PeterG and (deleted member) like this.
  37. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2002
    Messages:
    2,029

    Sarah Hughes also received "consistent tech marks all around" most of the times she skated. Judges simply didn't spot the underrotation or chose to ignore them, I posted this already in this thread.
  38. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    9,933
    I misunderstood your first post. I thought you were saying there was no judging system in the world in which an underrotated jump was cleaner than a two-footed one.
  39. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    Joined:
    May 9, 2002
    Messages:
    11,236
    Remember Bonaly and her 5.9s?
  40. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,315
    Bonaly was undermarked at the 93 Worlds and overmarked at every other competition of her career. That is how I would sum her up best. Her 94 Worlds LP would have seen a 5.4 or 5.5 for technical merit (a lower tech. mark than her presentation mark) had judges marked down UR and similar technical issues properly then. Not to mention her 95 Worlds LP which was littered with almost all 5.9s for technical merit to push an inspired Kwan off the podium, and nearly won her the title despite her usual deservedly low pres. marks, would have had only about 2 or 3 clean triples if judges marked off UR and similar issues correctly then. Clearly they didnt, and so that applies to the 98 Olympics too, and how people should be reasonable to look at things through a 6.0 standard and not COP.

    I dont want to take the thread off topic but I always want to slap Bonaly hard when I see her outburst at the 94 Worlds as she didnt deserve even a single 1st place ordinal at those Worlds. Even her jumps sucked that night, atleast Sato did 6 really clean ones with only one shaky landing. Much higher technical marks than Sato with that night weaker jumps, much weaker spins, much weaker footwork, much less speed and much weaker basic skating, GTFO, she was so overscored in fact. She should have chosen the 93 Worlds to behave like that if she was ever going to, as that is the only time her whole career she was genuinely robbed of anything. Well that and the 1998 Olympics short program perhaps, but it clearly ends right there.