Bizarrely titled Reuters article on Davis & White

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Mar 9, 2013.

  1. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Meryl Davis is smart enough to avoid answering questions she doesn't like. That response was far from classy, sort of like the famed :rolleyes:. I think that D/W have a reputation for being classy all the time, but that's not always the case.

    Re S/P, I think most of the heavy lifting was done by the NA media. I can understand Jamie's disappointment and tears on the podium, so I'm not going to fault her for that, and David had a funny line about if he hadn't wanted something like that to ever happen he could have competed in skiing instead. That said, playing along with the media and especially the implication that Anton may have collided with Jamie in the warmup on purpose was inappropriate.
     
  2. Carmen Ovsiannikov

    Carmen Ovsiannikov Well-Known Member

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    Great post gerbil.

    So if applying these standards which have been in place since icedance became a sport is snobbery then by that reckoning dinging singles skaters for improper jumps (flutzing) and non centered spins, poor edgework, poor spirals, empty space between jumps as opposed to more difficult connecting moves etc. etc. is also snobbery. I don't even know how to argue against that type of philosophy.

    I'm also not sure why V&M and D&W have to be a package deal. I realize some love both teams but some prefer one or the other (style differences). V&M and D&W are both NA teams but skate for different countries. I don't see people lecturing about appreciating just being able to enjoy some great skating when teams such as P&B and B&S were criticized when people felt the judges overmarked them or "gave" them titles some fans felt they don't deserve. Don't get me wrong, I don't neccesarily want the two teams to dislike each other but the insistence that V&M and D&W must love each other and practically have sleep overs post competition is unrealistic. Especially after some of the comments made in the last season or so.

    Going back to style differences. After the season is over and the competitions are in the past then yes, I can go back and just watch the programs and enjoy them for what they are when it comes to choreography or just level of performance. But this is competition and one can appreciate different styles yet be able to apply the same set of judging standards to those styles. It's not what a team chooses to skate to but how well they skate it.

    And there is nothing wrong with any of the teams (not just V&M or D&W) wanting to win but I also expect skaters to have some sort of self awareness regarding their skills and/or what they actually put out there on the ice. Even with Scott sometimes coming across as cocky, both he and Tessa have admitted when they haven't skated well or at least not as well as they wanted to. V&M seem like perfectionists and they want to put out a 100% performance at all times. When they were critical of their FD at Worlds last season it's unfortunate that the media took that as an opening to make it seem as if they were far worse than they were and that Tessa and Scott somehow were admitting they were gifted.

    With D&W, this isn't the first time they've come across to me as if they have bought into the hype over themselves. They may not blatantly slam other teams but at times can be passive/agressive. Last seasons 4CC's stood out to me. Even after a bad performance they and many supporters screamed wuzrobbed when V&M won the title. I felt bad for Charlie because his asthma contributed to how D&W skated, but unfortunately for them the judges aren't supposed to give sympathy points.

    D&W have made a few comments about them vs their competition before but just like on the ice, sublety also seems to be lost on people off ice as well. Again, they haven't been as openly blunt as we saw back in the days when B&K and G&P went at each other but in a round about way, D&W have more than once suggested that they should have won even when they didn't. I recall the post FD press conference at Worlds last year when they were asked about the marks and their silver. To paraphrase, they wanted to have a chat with the judges to find out what they were thinking but didn't blame V&M. Basically they thought they should have won but didn't blame V&M for being given a title they didn't deserve.

    It's hard to keep debating these two teams because any discussion of basic skating skills and everything that comes under that heading is brushed off by some as V&M ubers just trying to spin everything in their favor because we want them to win all the time.
     
  3. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    It is in bad form to make jokes with athletes you have publicly talked down or criticized (or whom you talk down after the competition). In one sense it was worse than what Surya did at 1994 Worlds, at least for the other athletes (i.e. Evan). In Surya's tantrum you could feel sorry for her, as I believe Yuka Sato told Manleywoman she did. It's harder to respond to something dressed as a joke. It's like you have an opponent whom you have defeated who now wants you to laugh at something a little bit insulting or disrespectful. This is kind of unfair.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2013
  4. figuristka

    figuristka Member

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    Well said.
     
  5. ciocio

    ciocio Active Member

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    No, because they have to keep it classy and pretend they like each other and they are best friends, etc. :rolleyes: I bet they actually dislike each other more than Plushenko and Yagudin ever did, you just have to "read between the lines".
    "We won't complain like Plushenko did" doesn't mean, "we won't think we were real winners". The only difference is that D/W know N/A media better than Plushenko and they are aware of how important is to pretend that you respect the rivals. :cool:
     
  6. ciocio

    ciocio Active Member

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    Actually is not irrelevant because for Plushenko was 1000000 times harder to came back after years of retirements and place second. We can't call a competition irrelevant for someone's career just because our favorite skaters did not compete or medal. :fragile:
     
  7. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    You have a point. Maybe Marina could instead discuss who might be her future daughter in law ;)
     
  8. misskarne

    misskarne #ForzaJules #KeepFightingMichael

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    Oh lord, not this lie again.

    Plushenko had NOTHING to do with the platinum medal on his website. Neither he nor Yana had ANYTHING to do with it. It was a fan who helps run his website that put it up. He did not know anything about it until he questioned by the press.
     
  9. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    It is better to make an effort to respect your rivals at some point in the day/week/year because the sport needs norms of behavior for people to get along. Otherwise you get situations like they have in Russia where grown women and men haven't spoken to each other in years over some ancient affront or insult. This can make for poor working relationships. Anyway you probably agree.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2013
  10. numbers123

    numbers123 Well-Known Member

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    In reality the view of sportsmanship (bad or good) is based upon some action or words as the conclusion of a group of fans, who have a vested interest in seeing their skater{s} in a good light. We review every action, every word to determine if we can find something that puts our favorite in a good light and their rivals in a bad light. Somehow proving to the rivals' fan that the actions shows unsportsmanlike behavior. Short of anyone grabbing a medal off someone's neck or some action that causes legal assault charges to be filed, I don't think that we (fans) have the knowledge or insight into skaters thoughts to make any decisions about their actions.

    Remember the incident of Sasha supposedly deliberate action to run over Michelle, or the Evengi tears vs. the humorous (to some) actions of Alexi looking at his watch seemingly to indicate that the Russian National anthem was too long, or probably a billion other examples not previously mentioned above. Each could have been sportsmanship actions or could be disappointment in themselves or could be a "I know I did my best, what would it feel like to be on the top of the podium" or "our fans believe that we did win"

    We do not know - so we post things, and they are verify/substantiation by others of like minds - thus making it true, because someone else agrees with me - I read it on the Internet so I must be right. But the real reaction/action is not KNOWN to us, the reason is NOT known to us, we surmise what we want. We have to admit for us to be on a figure skating board - we are more than the occasional fan. The occasional fan is relying upon experts to tell them some truth.Some of us believe it too, sort of like the it must be true I read it on the internet.

    TIL - is it only Russia where people don't talk to each because of preceived insult? Gosh I didn't know I lived in Russia, as I am guilty of this - not speaking to someone because of perceived actions of one person to me.
     
  11. ciocio

    ciocio Active Member

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    You mean he/she is STILL running the website? :eek:
     
  12. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Why wouldn't she? Should every mistake and bad call be a firing offense? Even assuming that running his website is a paid position; it may be done by a fan volunteering her time.

    I've seen worse things on Ice Network, which is an official affiliate of the USFSA - and they don't seem to have fired anyone.
     
  13. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    :) Of course it is not only Russia. Russia is just an example where many of the best coaches/athletes have had public feuds over years.
     
  14. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I have no idea if that fan is still winning the website, but, why not? I'm sure that the platinum thing was meant in good faith, as if to say you may not have won the gold, but you're more precious than gold to us fans. Of course it could also be construed as saying Plushenko was better than Lysacek and that he doesn't accept his silver and that's why it had to be removed, but IMO giving the person a talking to and removing the offending post is quite enough, they don't have to fire him/her for trying to do something nice. Kwan's fans made her a gold medal which they presented to her when she did not win in SLC (probably more of a "you're a gold medalist to us" thing than a "wuzrobbed" considering that she fell, but it's the same sentiment).

    Now, if things like that continue to pop up on Plushenko's website and he keeps using the excuse that it's run by a fan, THEN I would say that because he didn't fire the fan, I am assuming that he is in agreement with what they post. To my knowledge that was the only time something like that happened.

    I have no problem with you liking D&W more, but there is a difference between the qualities that make you like a team and qualities that achieve or should achieve high scores (though of course there is a lot of overlap!). The argument here seems to be that D&W have a lot of qualities that endear them to you, and since the scores have been quite close the last few years, people should just accept that they are as good as V&M, and if they harp on technical things it is simply snobbery. That assumes the judges' marks are basically correct or in the ballpark, though, and considering all the discussion on this thread about judging controversies, it's safe to say that not everybody will agree.

    In terms of a discussion like D&W's silver at Worlds, it would probably be more helpful to look at the protocols, see that they lost a level compared to V&M, and then explain where D&W should have made that up on the GOE or PCS to get them to first place.
     
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  15. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    Don't you know that on this board some people love to blame Plushenko for everything that he does or does not, whether he has control over it or not? He has even been criticized for having a certain kind of nose.
     
  16. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Excuse me, but it it not a lie that there was a platinum medal on his website.
     
  17. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    It's a lie to say you know plushenko put platinum of Vancouver on the website personally.
     
  18. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    If Plushenko doesn't care enough about his public image to monitor and/or approve what's on his website, that's not my problem.
    And IIRC the platinum medal was only taken down once questions were raised about it.
     
  19. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I believe he was kind of busy with the Olympics at the time. And maybe he trusts/trusted whoever runs it for him and doesn't micromanage. Who knows? But to judge him on that, based on the information available, strikes me as rather unfair. If Lysacek has avoided commenting about it, I really don't see why Meryl Davis should do so three years later.
     
  20. ciocio

    ciocio Active Member

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    IMO is not offensive to put a platinum medal on the website because such a medal does not exist, gold would have been much more offensive.
    But the website admin and Plushenko should have been more careful, because it was obvious that part of the media were desperate to attack them, as they also did before Olympics.
    If you want my opinion, I'm reading Plushenko's official web quite a lot and I strongly believe it was his wife's idea and no fan was involved. But it's only a personal opinion, of course.
     
  21. Holley Calmes

    Holley Calmes Well-Known Member

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    Of course D/W don't need a platinum medal. They just need to wait until the awards ceremony at Worlds, and if they placed second, they need to run out and stand on the Gold Medal podium. Then they both can jump down and say, "Oops! Just a little joke! Aren't we cute? Anybody who doesn't like it needs to get a sense of humor!" Then again, they've got too much class to do anything like that. And, no doubt, V/M do too.
     
  22. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Of course it must be factored in that v/m are actually worthy of gold and not jokes.
     
  23. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Why do you think his wife was involved? All I know about her is she is quite beautiful.

    Evgeni Plushenko and Yana Rudkovskaya
     
  24. Bournekraatzfan

    Bournekraatzfan New Member

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    I guess the people who wrote the rules are also a bunch of snobs and/or V&M ubers:

    Performance/Execution Criteria:

    "Carriage
    Carriage is a trained inner strength of the body that makes possible ease of movement
    from the center of the body. Alignment is the fluid change from one movement to the
    next.

    Style and individuality/personality
    Style is the distinctive use of line and movement as inspired by the music.[...]

    Clarity of movement
    Clarity is characterized by the refined lines of the body and limbs, as well as the precise
    execution of any movement.

    [...]

    Unison and “oneness” (Pair Skating and Ice Dancing)
    Each skater contributes equally toward achieving all six of the performance criteria. "

    Source: http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152086-169302-64121-0-file,00.pdf

    Yes, that is how I interpreted it as well.
     
  25. ciocio

    ciocio Active Member

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    They don't have too much class, they are hypocrite. It's obvious to anybody that Moir thinks D/W are inferior, you don't have to be a genius to figure it out. How do you think D/W feel about it? :rolleyes: I don't care if they stand on the Gold Medal Podium or they say "ohhh, we are best friends, we enjoy the other team's victory", who's going to buy it, anyway?:shuffle:
     
  26. ciocio

    ciocio Active Member

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    I've noticed that on Plushenko's site everything is approved and moderated. I know his wife said the silver medal was more important to her than a gold medal because Plushenko struggled so much for it, it was "platinum". In my opinion, the fan who uploaded it had somebody's approval, somebody who didn't realize it could have been offensive. Plushenko usually is not involved in stuff like that, twitter, website, whatever, so I believe it was Yana or the site admin. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm not trying to blame Yana or anybody else because the "platinum medal" scandal was the most stupid thing I ever heard, Plushenko can put anything on his website, platinum, diamond, sapphire medal, these medals doesn't exist anyway.
     
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  27. Holley Calmes

    Holley Calmes Well-Known Member

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    I don't think you got the joke. Besides, I think both D/W and V/M are classy teams as are all the dance teams as far as I know. I was alluding to another event.
     
  28. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    :lol: My Lord, what was we gonna do, if'in ya did have a problem, Cherubim my dear, schedule a duel or something??? But that wouldn't be very angelic of you now, eh? Even tho' it mighta been the politically correct, face-saving thing to do in a bygone era. But, ahem, forgive my digression, and seriously Cherub, try to relax and please lighten up.

    Like I said in a previous post in this thread, in regard to V/M and D/W, the varying perceptions on the respective fans' side can be scarily vicious or mildly amusing.

    I ain't arguin' for anything, btw, but you sure seem to be over-analyzing my posts. ;) I like who I like and I love who I love. Enjoy the skaters you love, and have fun watching the upcoming festivities in London. Don't be so tense. Do your best not to identify. It might help prevent high blood pressure and apoplectic fits. I used to have an elderly friend who enjoyed watching figure skating, and even tho' he wasn't really a hardcore fan, he used to get nervous watching figure skating because he felt for every skater, and he used to say that it seemed to him like he might have jinxed them whenever they fell. I had to tell him not to worry so much, but just try to enjoy because ice is slippery. He eventually gave up on watching though. In general, he was not a huge sports fan. :)
     
  29. danceronice

    danceronice Corgi Wrangler

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    ....Can I like them both and be happy whichever team wins? *hides under the table*
     
  30. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    :rofl::rofl::rofl: