Better skater- Yamaguchi or Yu Na Kim

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by judgejudy27, Apr 21, 2011.

Better skater- Yamaguchi or Yu Na Kim

  1. Yu Na Kim

    63.2%
  2. Yamaguchi

    36.8%
  1. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Yu Na can do a triple loop. She has done some very good ones in the past. With her oft injured hip and how COP works it afforded her the luxury to take out the triple that gives her greatest risk of injury though.
     
  2. ks777

    ks777 Well-Known Member

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    I have only seen her fall on the loop in competitions. I have yet to see her land one.
     
  3. dawnie

    dawnie Active Member

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    She landed the loop in her GP events in 2007- Cup of China and Cup of Russia.
    As far as I know, those are the only ones she landed in her senior career.
     
  4. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    LOL,
    I don't think anyone thinks YuNa is a better jumper.
    The best jumper in history is Midori Ito, that's a fact. And Tonya Harding is probably another great jumper.
    But I understand people saying that YuNa has a better jumping technique.
    Her jumping technqiue on jumps is amazing. This is unbelievable what she can do with her thin body. Her 3 Lutz is probably the best ever in term of technique, height, distance. ;)
     
  5. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    Well, I doubt they watched skating prior to CoP (or when Yuna started skating), so can't really blame them. :p
     
  6. Lookingood

    Lookingood New Member

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    Gotta love all this chip shot posts..
     
  7. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    Yea, but saying that she's the best 3-3 jumper ever, including the men is pushing it a little. Her great technique allows her to jump as well as the men in terms of quality but Midori's natural talent allowed her to jumped even better than the men of her era at times. There lies the difference. ;)
     
  8. EricRohmer

    EricRohmer New Member

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    Besides flutzs, at GS forum I have heard Midori jumped sometimes lips.
    Maybe Tonya Harding is the best jumper..?
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2011
  9. riveredge

    riveredge Active Member

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    Ok, lutz doesn't matter. :rolleyes:

    Yuna did land a 3 loop on her LP during 2007 Cup of Russia though but to say that she can't do a 3 loop?

    It's true that lowerthelore exaggerated it a bit much but "some" (and they will call it crazy bots) are just expressing their opinions.
     
  10. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ITA. I think Ito was amazing also because of the sheer joy she seemed to exude, plus despite not getting the best marks for artistry, she actually had wonderful presentation skills -- better than some of today's skaters. She was not good in figures, but at least she had to learn figures, so I wonder if that is really true that she flutzed or lipsed on her lutz and flip. One other thing, I don't care about CoP, no skater (nor said skater's fans) in this era can claim a skater is the greatest ever if that skater doesn't do ALL the jumps in competition, period!
     
  11. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

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    Flutzing and lipping were not issues when Ito was competing. Flutzing only became in issue in the mid 90's and lipping only a few years ago.

    Just in terms of speed, height and variety and number of triples landed Ito is still untouched.
     
  12. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    Sorry about being late in getting back to this..

    I’d like to say, I don’t appreciate the way some words in my post were taken out of its context by some people (not totally unexpected though, given certain posters’ propensity).

    It’s a fact that Ito was an amazing skater with monstrous jumps. But in the particular context in my original post, I limited the meaning of the word “spectacular” by qualifying it as “Michael Jordan poetic spectacular.” Anybody familiar with the Jordan in his prime would get this. Griffey Jr. also had it. So did Couples with his effortless swing. I agree that Ito was a phenomenal jumper, but I wouldn’t call her jumps technically flawless or picture perfect. And she didn’t have proper edges on her toe jumps. Those are facts in my book, and that keeps me from calling her the best ever, even though I agree on that she’s one of the best and had the biggest 3As along with Harding’s.

    About Kim, I stand by my statement that she’s ONE OF the most consistent and spectacular 3-3 jumpers ever, male or female (I never said she’s THE best). Her 3-3s have no less wow factor than Ito’s 3As. In many aspects her 3-3s are comparable to the best among the men’s. And her consistency with her 3-3 in big events has been phenomenal, missing on it only once in 8 trips to Worlds & Olympics (including two Junior Worlds) in a total of 14 attempts. Each has her own strengths, but as I said earlier, if I have to choose between the two, I would pick Kim, on her advantage in pure technique and form.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2011
  13. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

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    Ito had the 3A and 3L, but Yuna has better 3Lz and triple-triples.

    Problem with Ito was that she had a big ugly wrap and her trademark 3A was MIA in the biggest competition of her career. WTF is the point of having a jump if you cant do it right when it counts the most?

    Yuna, OTOH, landed all her jumps cleanly during Vancouver Olys and got her nice and fat OGM. :kickass: No matter what kind of shit her haters try to throw at her, she will always be the greatest Olympic champion in ladies figure skating unless someone can out do her in the future.
     
  14. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    My feeling about skaters today needing to do all the jumps before they can be declared the greatest ever, has nothing to do with specific words used by another poster. I'm not quoting any particular poster in this instance. Among the issue I take with CoP is the apparent thinking or strategy TPTB seem to have no problem with, that its just fine for skaters to leave out one or more of their weaker jumps.

    Sure Mafke, probably one of the reasons flutzing and lipping was not an issue in Ito's time is because the need to practice figures helped most skaters gain control of their edges. The fact Ito was not good at figures may mean she didn't have great edge control. Still I'd love to see clips where Ito flutzed and lipped, or does it just seem that way to fans of the CoP generation? Are slo-mo close-ups available?

    Yeah Rumblefish, Ito didn't land her first 3axel attempt at '92 Olympics, but it wasn't completely missing in action, as she perfectly landed her second attempt later in her program. Actually, Ito skated lights-out :kickass: Olympic programs in 1988, but had to "wait her turn." For some reason, Ito's leg wrap doesn't bother me as much as Yu Na's ugly leg position in her layback spin, her wobbly spirals, lack of great leg height in her spirals (although she has made improvements), and the fact (beaten to death, I know) that Yu Na doesn't point her feet. Kind of hard with boots on sure, but noticeable especially when you are a skater that has such grace and elegance otherwise, not to mention a ballerina-type body.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2011
  15. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

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    I doubt what you are saying is true. If flutzing and lipping had not been an issue in old days, we probably wouldn't have lutz and flip as two disticnt types of jumps as we do today.
     
  16. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

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    Ito's 3A wasn't there for her all through the 92 Olys. She wasn't confident of landing it in SP, so she played it safe going for 3lutz which she fell on anyways. She did land her 2nd attempt in FS, and I give credit to her gutsiness to go for a 2nd one.

    You said that you don't mind Ito's wrapped leg. For me, a wrap is more of a technical issue rather than an aesthetic one. IMO, Ito would have been much more consistent at landing her big jumps if she had a nice tight air positons, enabling her to check out of her jumps in time. Who knows? She might have won in Albertville if she had a sounder technique.

    You bring up over discussed issue of Yuna's toe point again, but all I have to say is that even with her unpointed toe, she received 9s in her components marks at Olympics, and it certainely didn't prevent her from getting the gold.
     
  17. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ You are right Rumblefish, Yu Na's weaker points did not prevent her from winning gold at the Olympics, and I'm happy for her, as she was carrying an entire country on her back. She has a sweetness and a grace about her. She's beautiful and has gorgeous technique on her jumps. She also has a reserved quality that may be why I don't feel any emotional connection to her skating. I think her programs at this past Worlds are really wonderful, but were not performed up to her level. Hopefully, she will retain them and develop them further. The question is, does she have the fire and the desire to continue skating competitively?

    What you say about Ito's leg wrap being a technique issue is probably true, but of course the way the wrap looks to some in performance does involve aesthetics. Not sure why the leg wrap happened or why it wasn't corrected --maybe her coaches didn't want to mess with her too much in that area, since her jumps were so powerful and explosive. Maybe she was taught wrong but her fed saw nothing wrong with it, or if they did, it was felt better not to try and refine her jump technique and risk messing with her natural ability. Ito was so strong in most areas of her skating and such a dynamo -- she skated with such joy and energy, and her jumps were so high, especially comparative to her small stature, it was probably hard for audiences to believe what they were seeing.

    I wish we didn't have CoP to make skaters and everyone else feel it's okay to leave out a jump you don't perform well. I don't think that helps the sport overall. As far as sp at 2010 Olympics, Yu Na obviously deserved to win, but not by that margin. I think it is silly to put a competition out of reach, when in fact they didn't give Mao enough credit. Mao was competitive with her programs, but Yu Na deserved first place in both programs and the gold overall. Just why must they make it so ridiculous? Yu Na has weaknesses that the judges tend to ignore. The scores should have been closer in the sp.

    I say the same about 2006 Olympic sp when Plushy scored so high ... ridiculous. One could argue that Johnny Weir had a better sp there, but of course he didn't have Plushy's rep, and there was no question that TBTB (including judges) wanted Plushy to win the gold -- it was his as the marks in the sp proved. I say the same about Chan's sp at this past Worlds. The placement of first was of course correct without a doubt, but the high marks and the margin between Chan and Dai in the sp was ridiculous, as Chan IMO is overmarked in some areas. Dai was not at his best, but he skated well in the sp. Others will argue that the quads gave Chan the high scores. Sure, but still the margin was ridiculous, and many fans feel the same way.
     
  18. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

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    You are entitled to your opinions regarding whatever weak points you find in Yuna's skating. But please don't assume everyone else has same opinions like yours. Not everyone think toe-point is a must feature in figure skating. Davis & White has to have the laziest free leg positions ever and guess what? They won the gold this year. Unlike ladies singles, Ice dancing is a discipline where free leg positions actually matter IMO.

    Also, you might find Yuna Kim's skating reserved and thus don't get emotionally connected, but I saw plenty of fire during her El Tango de Roxanne and Dance Macabre programs. In this year's programs, I felt warmth watching her perform like I did when I was watching Michelle Kwan at her best. IMO, she made lots of strides bringing out emotions through her skate. Like I stated above, stuff like fire and emotion are really subjective and there is no right answer. All I can say is it not only depends on performance ability of a skater, but also on willingness of the audience to embrace the performance.


    I have respect for Ito. She brought lots of energy and spunk as wells as her phenomenal jumping ability. But IMO she didn't fully develop as an artistic skater before she turned pro. I actually found her performances during her ill-fated return to amateur competition in 1996 the most pleasing artistically.

    Skaters leaving out their nemesis jumps is a tactical issue under marking system we have today. Only Joannie Rochette did all 5 standard triple jumps IIRC in Vancouver, and no one did in Moscow this past month. Rochette was well rewarded in the Olys with a bronze medal for doing so although she didn't have triple-triples nor 3A like her competitors.

    For scoring at Vancouver Olys, I really don't remember any problem aside from Ando getting overmarked in the SP and Flatt getting low-balled in the FS. If you raise any specific issues regarding marking of certain elements or components, I would be willing to look it up and discuss further.

    Plushy getting gigantic marks in Torino was due to CoP being relatively new and even less accurate then it is today IMO. ;) Plushy's PCS was a mere extension of his old 2nd mark under 6.0 era.

    For Chan's SP marks this year, I did think it was rather high. Having said that, I also want to add that he deserved at least a 7 to 8 point margin compared to the rest. It was Chan's best SP performance of the season aside from his nationals. I also think Takahashi did not skate his best in SP. His 3A was questionable in rotation and I felt he was sluggish overall.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2011
  19. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    I am reading the new posts with interest but one thing I must strongly to disagree is the idea of pushing the sport means having to penalising someone who chose not to do certain jumps or the idea everyone need to have complete set of jumps to be considered as worthy.

    The reality with learning and improving anything at a masterful level to its peak of perfection and beyond is naturally focusing on the detailing. Invest time to refine and improve, to make it bigger, better, faster, stronger than ever before, hence push the 'sporting' aspect. True expertise are about individual specialities, otherwise they will only produce generalist and master of none.

    It has always been the biggest problem with COP, they churn out cookie cutter skaters that are at the peril of ISU judging system (An organisation with its sets of problems that has nothing to do with what goes on the ice), is that what figure skating comes to?

    In a strenuous sport like figure skating especially for the ladies, there's only so much time one can spent on training, pushing their bodies to their limits and maximise their ability to be competitive but ALSO still find rooms for self satisfaction which are the key motivator in doing anything. E.g For the sport, for the art, to do the big trick nobody can, to win, for fame, fortune etc..

    There had been criticisms on the sport hasn't moved on from a decade+ ago, and that programs were not as difficult or impressive as before, that the skaters weren't as innovative as before, yet surely it is because of the limitations it places on the skaters on what they are allowed to do without being penalised enforces them to train certain ways, satisfy certain criteria, counting the spins, elements (Oda), rather than be completely free in their FS and be all they can be?

    By being completely free, maybe we will see more interesting programs, even new innovative moves along the way? It will be far more entertain and may be bring the audience back to be in awe of their favourite moves being performed in whatever format the skater chose to showcase it. It would be the spectacular of quality over quantity. That surely is what should be about pushing the sport, rather than having too many cooks/ingredients spoils the broth.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2011
  20. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

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    I totally agree.
    Current CoP is only good for comparing skaters with same cookie cutter elements and doesn't render skaters to innovate.

    How many ladies were doing 3T-3T in the SP and 2A-3T in the FS this year?
    How much longer can we put up with watching skaters peform ugly broken leg spins?

    Ice dance is the worst of all disciplines. It has become how fast you can twizzle and how many times you can rotate with your partner hanging over your shoulders.
    There isn't dance in ice dance anymore. SIGH
     
  21. ks777

    ks777 Well-Known Member

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    you guys said Ito had ugly technique on her jumps but if she didn't have to practice school figure, I am sure she would have had time to practice more on her jumps. She gave up practicing the quad toe when she had to practice for school figure, when she broke her leg. Her rink didn't even have a zamboni so the only time she can practice on her school figure was to get there earlier than anyone else. She practiced her jumps mostly during the public sessions.

    Yeah Yuna landed the loop twice? LOL You think she would have landed the jump at the Olympics if she attempted? Fcuk NO! She hasn't even tried the jump anymore so don't tell us she still has it!

    Midori Ito still IS the best jumper ever in the history of the sport. Nobody even came close.
     
    Vash01 and (deleted member) like this.
  22. riveredge

    riveredge Active Member

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    Yeah, yeah, it shove down in my throat. :lol:

    Anyway.. i thought this thread is about Yamaguchi vs. Yuna? :lol: Ohh..i'll wait to see judgejudy to start a new thread..Yuna vs. Ito then..:lol:

    In 9, 8, 7, 6, 5...4...:rofl:
     
  23. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    Ok, you are entitled to your opinion. But let's not get into the what-ifs, as I believe every skater has his/her own story.

    About Vancouver, all skaters including Yu-Na displayed what they could do best within the rules, and she won it fair and square. So please, get over it.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2011