Better skater- Yamaguchi or Yu Na Kim

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by judgejudy27, Apr 21, 2011.

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Better skater- Yamaguchi or Yu Na Kim

  1. Yu Na Kim

    63.0%
  2. Yamaguchi

    37.0%
  1. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    I voted for Yuna, but this seems like a really odd question to begin with. IMO, a better poll would be Yuna vs. Kwan--I think there are many more similarities in their skating.
     
  2. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    There is no point starting a poll pitting anyone against Kwan on FSU.
     
  3. PUNKPRINCESS

    PUNKPRINCESS New Member

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    That's already been done. :p

    I voted for Yu-Na simply because I believe her to be the better singles skater between her and Kristi. I chose to limit the comparison to singles skating because that is the discipline in which they earned the most prestigious titles.

    Nevertheless, I have found the discussion and debate interesting.

    On a side note, I find it curious that judgejudy voted for Yu-Na in the poll. In a thread a few months ago, did you not list Kristi Yamaguchi as the best female figure skater in history, in your opinion? I could have sworn that you did.
     
  4. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    Oops, I guess I missed that one!
     
  5. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    If I did I must have been only joking. I definitely dont feel that way. I am not sure if I feel Yu Na is either, but I do rate her above Kristi, although I consider both all time greats.

    I have said in the past if Kristi had stayed amateur even only through 94 most would consider her the greatest ever today IMO, considering she would have a Witt-like record of 4 straight Worlds and 2 Olympics, but unlike Witt her technical abilities wouldnt look outdated for a long time to come. That is as far as I would go on her though.
     
  6. PUNKPRINCESS

    PUNKPRINCESS New Member

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    No, it didn't read like a joke! I found the thread. It was one of the earliest threads I participated in, in this forum, and my list was one of the few that omitted Kristi (and included Yuka. Yuka is to skating skills as Midori is to jumps.) On the other hand, I thought your list was different in that it put Kristi at #1, so the memory of it stuck in my mind. Kristi is one of my old favorites, by the way, I just never thought of her as one of the greatest.

    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=74732

    I agree with you that Kristi would have been a favorite going into the 1994 Olympics and winning a few more Worlds. However, even if she had, I am unsure if I would rank her a better skater than Yu-Na, and definitely not above Michelle.
     
  7. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Well I consider Janet Lynn and Midori Ito the best skaters of all time, and Ito had most of her best skating before 1991 anyway. So it really doesnt matter who I rate as the best of that time period.

    I go back and forth between Yu Na, Michelle, and Kristi. I think competitively speaking Yu Na at her best would easily beat the other two at theirs, especialy under COP, her jumps are just much too strong for the other two to counter with anything and the judges love her skating. She is the most inconsistent and weakest big event competitor of the three though. Kwan was the most magical and most appealing to watch for me, and has the most longevity and total medals. Kristi was the best competitor and has the best dominance in big events over the years of the 3 IMO, but I find her by far the least intersting of the three to watch. And I think Mao Asada is more naturally talented than all 3 but will probably never fulfill her full potential, although she still has already had a great career in her own right.
     
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  8. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I think Kristi developed her artistry after she turned pro. As an eligible skater she was mainly a jumping bean who had a lithe body that created an impression of being 'artistic'. Don't get me wrong. I did like her; I just did not think she was the great artist that people made her out to be in 1992. She was definitely the most complete skater of her time, but my favorite still was the exciting Midori Ito.
     
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  9. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

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    I would have to go with Yu-Na Kim, mostly based on her natural athletic ability, the huge jumps (esp. compared to Kristi's jumps which I always found to be extra small) , speed and ice coverage.

    I do love Kristi, and I do think her attention to detail is much better than Kim's: Her hands, feet, neck everything was always in place. She also had a 3z-3t in the early 90s, which is very impressive. I'm only comparing amateur careers , I don't think it's right to weigh in with Kristi's fab pro-career, since YNK hasn't had one yet.

    If you compare the OGM performances, it's no comparison. YNK would have won under any system, no mistakes, a 3F-3T in the SP (people forget how risky that is), a 3F-3T and 2A-3T in the LP, a program skated with speed, power, ease and elan. I would have put Kristi's Albertville OGM performance behind Mirai's 4th place finish in Vancouver, under any system.
     
  10. orientalplane

    orientalplane Mad for mangelwurzels

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    Kim performed a 3Lz-3T in both the Olympic SP and FS. She didn't do a 3F-3T in either programme.
     
  11. mikemba

    mikemba Active Member

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    I disagree.

    The most accurate way to compare skaters from different eras is to judge how impressive was Kristi's technical content in 1992 versus how impressive was Yu N Kim's technical content in 2010. Although I do indeed lurve Yu Na Kim, her LP content was not as impressive in 2010 as Kristi's LP content was in 1992. And Kristi's line was definitely superior.

    --The SP really can't be compared at all: In 1992, women weren't even allowed to do more than 1 triple in the short. So you really can't compare what Yu Na did in her Olympic short when Kristi wouldn't have even been allowed to do that content in 1992. That would be like comparing a current male who did a quad in his SP to a male OGM from an era when quads weren't allowed in the men's short.
     
  12. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    How so? Both ladies had a triple lutz-triple toe and 2nd triple lutz. Yu Na had many more jump combinations (ok mostly since only COP demands them). Yu Na landed 6 triples to Kristi's 5. Kristi's only edge was attempting a triple loop which Yu Na didnt, which she fell on anyway it turned out (and didnt attempt the triple salchow which Yu Na did). And Yu Na's spins and footwork were definitely more difficult, even if the spins probably werent as well executed (again I know mainly due to COP).
     
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  13. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I agree about the SP- we can't compare them. However, it is easy to compare the LPs. Yu na had the difficult jump combination that Kristi did, and Yu na's jumps are much stronger than Kristi's. Kristi had a 'fall' (she ended up sitting on the ice, IIRC) on the 3 loop. Then she doubled the 3 salchow, which was always a problem jump for her. Yu na skated absolutely clean, without doubling any of her jumps, and she was carrying a very heavy load- the expectations of her country. Kristi was an underdog, in spite of being the reigning world champion. As far as the Olympic wins are concerned, Yu na was a much better skater than Kristi in the OGM winning free skate.
     
  14. DickButtonFan

    DickButtonFan New Member

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    I pick Kristi because her jump content was so high that it could compete with Yuna almost twenty years later. That is impressive in itself. She also has better lines.
     
  15. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I've always thought the first 2 minutes of Kristi's LP would have been a perfect SP. Amazing what she could do, with such ease.
    The first 2 minutes had a perfect 3Lz/3T, 2A and 3F out of footwork, a spiral sequence, a camel spin on the outside edge, a flying sit spin...WOW ;)
     
  16. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    :lol: But that's exactly what you did!


    Interesting assessments and this entire thread has some thought-provoking commentary. All things considered, I would have to say Michelle is by far the best competitor, no contest. Not just because of her consistency and stats and longevity, but because of her courage, heart, and indefinable magic. There was no way they wanted Kwan to win Worlds in 2000 and 2001, but she refused to be denied (and her competitors faltered). Yu Na is a technically exquisite jumper, but she doesn't do all the jumps, doesn't point her feet (an ubiquitous but accurate criticism), isn't as consistent overall, although she performed better at the 2010 Olympics than Kwan (2002) and Kristi (1992). I also feel that Yu Na is much more reserved, so I don't always connect with her skating on the deep, emotional level that I did with Kwan's skating. Kristi was competent, cute, and fun to watch. She was more interesting to watch when she turned pro and her skating and her personality developed. I believe Kristi was obviously one of the best all around skaters of her time. It is mainly in looking back that she seems less interesting to watch in comparison with skaters of her generation and those who came later. I think it is generally hard to accurately compare skaters between eras, so our observations are mostly based on subjective assessments and limited by our own unique perspectives.

    Of course, Midori Ito was a dynamo in a class by herself (but the necessity to wait her turn earlier in her career, then the unfair rap that she did not have good presentation skills, plus injuries, and bad luck in 1991 --falling out of the rink at Worlds, and at 1992 Olympics --falling on her first 3axel in the lp, kept her from winning more championships). I do think that Midori was much more exciting to watch than Kristi at that time and from today's vantage point, although Kristi tended to be favored as the artistic, versatile, cute U.S. skater/ girl-next door. I even remember a fluff piece where they had Midori watching a clip of Jill Trenary's 1990 lp, with Midori politely saying she was watching and learning how to improve her artistic skills. Actually, Midori had excellent presentation skills which she continued to develop, but she was always marked low for presentation (kind of a bias perhaps based on the fact she was so amazing technically but did not have the body shape normally associated with having good line and artistry). Here's a Midori clip--1987 Worlds sp-- I hadn't seen it at the time, which shows wonderful presentation: lovely arms, and gorgeous leg positions on the layback spin, plus the height on those amazing jumps (crowd couldn't believe what they were witnessing) -- scoring was a great example of 'wait your turn' attitude. The second clip is like, "What!!! -- slapped???" Watching this interview is so heartbreaking. I would hope the reported "slapping" does not occur today, and I'm flabbergasted if that did happen to Midori then.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIDkgyLjcPQ

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3Tj1O1lE-s

    BTW, I agree Mao seems to have a more natural ability and effervescent lightness, particularly early in her career. However, I think she could have benefited by figures training as a younger skater to help correct her technique much sooner.

    Could I ask whether you are actually the age, judgejudy, that you have listed? If so, you would not have been born when Ito won Worlds in 1989. It's fascinating that your generation has access to all these skating videos and can view them over and over at will, and make detailed judgements -- quite foreign to fans of the late 60s to mid-80's (until the accessibility of VCRs, and the more recent digital technology, and especially, the Internet). I think Michelle Kwan's unique consistency coinciding with the Internet generation deepened fans' understanding and knowledge of the sport. As a kid, I remember enjoying watching Peggy Fleming, Toller Cranston, and Janet Lynn. They were each unique and memorable, but I truly understood little about figure skating, and even as I grew up and began to learn more, there was no easily accessible way to go back 10 to 20 years and view clips of past skaters' performances and make comparisons.
     
  17. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    Well-said. I couldn't have said it better myself. :)
     
  18. BlackPack

    BlackPack New Member

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    Yamaguchi because she knew figures.
     
  19. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    She was one of the worst at figures. It cost her a world medal in 1990.
     
  20. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

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    She wasn't great at them, but even her mediocre figures required a huge amount of skill. When was the last time you saw Kim do even a lousy LBO paragraph double three?
     
  21. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

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    For me, what gives Yuna the edge is her amplitude. Her jumps are huge, (and she flows in and out of them with speed,) she has blazing fast speed, she has exceptional ice coverage, her spiral travels across the rink. In any era, it would be obvious that Kristi skates relatively small and slow, even relative to her contemporaries like Tonya or Midori.

    I'd agree with you that Kristi's 3-3 was very impressive way back them,I also think her attention to detail is better. But I also think Yuna has advanced the sport by doing a 3-3 in every SP, that's such a big, risky move.
     
  22. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    Kim's spiral has nice coverage but her positions are so meh it kinda cancels the positive out. Kirsti had much better positions on her spirals, especially after she turned pro.
     
  23. ks777

    ks777 Well-Known Member

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    I am surprised that there hasn't been a thread " better jumper, Midori or Yuna?
     
  24. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    ^ If anyone voted for Yuna, they must have never watched Midori skate.
     
  25. riveredge

    riveredge Active Member

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    Midori is indeed one of the best jumpers in history but anyone has preference. :rolleyes:
     
  26. VALuvsMKwan

    VALuvsMKwan Wandering Goy

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    Or prejudice. ;)
     
  27. EricRohmer

    EricRohmer New Member

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    I agree.
     
  28. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    I've watched Midori Ito's skating many times. She was an amazing athlete and jumper, but I wouldn't call her jumps spectacular, like in Michael Jordan poetic spectacular. The leg wrap was annoying and she flutzed. Yu-Na doesn't have 3 axel, but she is a spectacular jumper, with her 3 lutz, 3 flip, and 3 toe-loop as the second leg in her 3-3 and 2a-3, with their height, distance and flow, and with their form in the air. Also, I would call her one of the most consistent and spectacular 3-3 jumpers ever, male or female. If I have to pick one, it would be Yu-Na, as I would have Jordan over the likes of Wilkens, Bryant or James.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2011
  29. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    Ito's jumps weren't spectacular? I guess you never saw her triple axel in her LP at the 1990 Worlds then. Kim would have been hard pressed to beat her that year. Only the compulsories kept Ito from winning. I guess it was poetic that the last year of compulsories an inferior skater like Trenary won.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2011
  30. ks777

    ks777 Well-Known Member

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    Her jumps WERE spectacular. Have you seen Midori's height on her jumps? and not just her 3 axel. Her 3loop, 3flip, 3axel, 3lutz(I don't know if she flutzed or not, didn't matter back then) 3toe, and 3sal had great height, distance and flowing landing to them. 2a-3?? That's not even hard for Midori. Midori mostly put her 3-3 at the end of her LP.

    Wow, I wouldn't call her the most consistant and spectacular 3-3 jumper ever, male or female. You do realize, guys are doing much harder combinations? with greater height and distance?

    I can't believe some people( you can always find them under yuna threads protecting the threads) think Yuna, who can't even do a 3loop, is better jumper than Midori. what a joke.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2011