Better skater- Kim or Kwan

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by angelflies, Jul 24, 2013.

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Better skater- Kim or Kwan

  1. Kwan

    105 vote(s)
    43.2%
  2. Kim

    138 vote(s)
    56.8%
  1. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    I think Kim is much more dominant in her era compared to Kwans era. Depending on how this season pans out she will be a much more dominant skater than Kwan.

    Not to belittle Kwan at all though, because she had to beat some incredible skaters and performances over the years such as Chen in 96, Slutskaya in 00-01, Butyrskaya and Cohen. She also skated clean in many many high level competitions, which takes incredible skill all on its own.
     
  2. briantoronto

    briantoronto New Member

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    Well Kwan has 5 World titles to only 2 for Kim so I wouldnt say Kim is much more dominant. I think overall they are about equal dominance, not one way more than the other like the biased fans of both try either way to argue this thread. They each have things over the other in that aspect. I think a clean Kim is far more unbeatable for her rivals than a clean Kwan, but Kwan is more consistent than Kim. She does skate cleanly more often, which is why Kim has lost Worlds too many times for what she should have.

    I think Kwan has like 15 clean competitions and Kim only 4 or 5. That is one big edge for Kwan and why she has many more World titles despite that her clean skating is much more beatable than Kim's would be.
     
  3. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    Yu-Na has like no competition though. Mao and Carolina fall every time they compete. She is dominant because she completes her elements and her rivals always screw up. And when she is not "on", people like Miki Ando can win two world championships. This is the argument that is said about Michelle all the time, but it is also true for Yu-Na.
     
  4. briantoronto

    briantoronto New Member

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    Well much of her career Kwan also had no competition. Lipinski in 97-98 although it was mostly Kwan's bad slump that even made Tara relevant to that level in 97, and Slutskaya in 2000-2002 and that is it. Who else was a threat to her. Asada atleast seemed some threat to Kim her whole career, and Ando and Kostner were for various or extended periods of time, and all those are better skaters than anyone Kwan faced besides Lipinski or Slutskaya.

    Was that Kwan and Kim being so great or their competition being that lacking. It is hard to say. It seems in general the ladies are more dominant and have less competition than the men do.
     
  5. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    I think it is a combination of both. They were/are both able to deliver programs when it counts (which I think in Kwan's case is very underrated) and their competition most of the time could not. Having the ability to "go for it" is a huge part of being a champion.
     
  6. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    How is Chen in 95-96 not considered a great rival to Kwan. Chen was a bit of a headcase that season, but no doubt she was one of Kwan's great rivals then. No tto mention their skating is much more easily comparable than either Lipinski or Slutskaya who were relying soley on their jumps to beat Kwan (well Irina did get better artistically in the 00s but imo she was overrated in that department even at her best). The fact that Kwan was able to beat defending world champ Chen at worlds, and Kwan skating as well as she did really cemented her status in the sport.
     
  7. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    My feelings exactly ... and thanks for sharing how you feel about Michelle's skating. :respec:


    To those who feel something special when you watch Yu Na, enjoy and treasure the moments at upcoming Olympics.
     
  8. DreamSkates

    DreamSkates Active Member

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    If Kim had skated pre Kwan then Kwan would have been "better" as Kim would have been her idol to look up to and to surpass. Since its the other way around, Kim has surpassed Kwan technically but Kwan has had much longer skating career considering the number of years during which she medalled. Plus Kwan's numerous artistic and expressive skates far outnumber Kim's current number of same. One Oly gold doesn't negate Kwan's reign as ice queen during her years of skating. That said, Kim is the new ice queen.

    It's likely people voted per era they watched top level figure skating.
     
  9. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

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    Alot of the passion and heart talk is subjective to what an individual feels. Kwan probably moves alot of people but I mostly found her plastered smile look kind of forced and I didnt really enjoy it and I wasnt moved. I find Kim skates with more genuine passion and heart, and it doesnt feel forced or put on. Like her Les Miserables program at Worlds this year, she immediately feels the music and program from the opening note but it feels genuine while Kwan with the plastered smile and the smirals kind of felt fake to me. To each their own.
     
  10. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    This is so untrue. Michelle had to beat a World Champion who received 6.0's to win in 1996. At US Nationals, she faced not only Tara Lipinski but other skaters, like Sasha Cohen and even Sarah Hughes, who were viewed by many as "the future." I think the judges really wanted to give the National title to Sasha many times and Sasha did place over Michelle several times in the short program. But it was only Sasha's own mistakes (much as it is Kostner's mistakes nowadays) that kept her from the title. Irina Slutskaya was a formidable competitor because, unlike most skaters, she was determined to win. She won something like five European titles, didn't she, not to mention her success on the Grand Prix. She also had the full backing of the Russian federation. Regardless of what anyone thinks of Irina's skating, the judges liked her and were willing to give her high marks and place her over Kwan if she skated clean (see 2002 Worlds LP). Michelle herself has said that Irina was her strongest competitor. Yu Na is so far ahead of her closest competitors that it is she that really has no competition except herself.
     
  11. Lilith11

    Lilith11 New Member

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    I think what some are arguing is how deep Yu-na's field is e.g. Mao Asada and her triple axels, which makes her victories all the more impressive; after all, isn't that one of the aspects of the final flight of the Vancouver Olympics that made it so gripping to watch? How clean and strong pretty much everyone was?
     
  12. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    I vote Kwan because she had an extremely long career with no breaks. Kwan's jumps were not as good as Kim's but Kwan had deep edges, feeling, artistry, and a long career that only Sonja Henie has achieved. If Kim wins 2 golds, she will be the third woman in history to do so. A rare feat, but certainly not the first. Kwan's career nearly spanned 4 Olympics (alternate in 1994, injury withdrawal in 2006) and her level of skating never deteriorated until about the last year of her career, in which she was "only" 4th in the world.
     
  13. TripleWallie

    TripleWallie New Member

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    Neither was Kwan the first to have five World golds or such longevity either. Carol Heiss and Sonja Heine matches or exceeds her in World titles, and Vinson-Owen matches her in US titles. If Kim wins in Sochi, her two OGM and two World titles would outweigh five World golds, as far as competitive results go. Of course, this wouldn't change anyone's opinion as to who is the "better skater", since we include subjective criteria like emotional connection and preferences for a particular skating style. Whether Kim wins two or three OGM's, there will still be many out there who say she leaves them "cold".
     
  14. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    Yes, if Mao could actually skate the programs she plans. She didn't at Vancouver and Yu Na still beat her in the long at 2010 Worlds, despite her triple axels. Under 6.0, they would probably be very close rivals, like Kwan and Slutskaya. But under the current system, Yu Na gains so much on GOE and PCS that no one can catch her unless she makes mistakes--and that is mistakes, plural.
     
  15. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

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    IMO it's difficult to compare skaters that competed under completely different rules. So the answer to this question Kwan vs Kim - "better skater" is going to be highly subjective. It may also depend on when you became an avid fan of either skater.
     
  16. Lilith11

    Lilith11 New Member

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    ... I was referring to the field in general, using Mao as an illustrative example.
     
  17. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Who is that strong in Yu Na's field ? Nobody beat her when she made no mistake, IIRC. ;)
     
  18. invierno

    invierno Member

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    That could be either because Yuna is that strong or her competitions are not so strong or both.:)


    To determine if Yuna's field is strong or not, we have to compare the field to field.

    Would Miki beat Irina? Would Mao beat Tara or Sasha? Would Caro beat Chen? If so, the field is strong. So maybe we need to start another poll to decide on this.
    But then again, they are all from different era and different judging, so....
     
  19. PairSk8Fan

    PairSk8Fan Banned Member

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    Vote for Kwan. She is a skater and performer. Kim YuNa and her skating impress like a completely manufactured product, whereas Kwan impresses with genuine performance ability in the skating.

    Kwan is, um, "human" and "personal" in her skating. Kim YuNa is like a Hundai, Kawai or other Korean-style knock-off of the original. Kim YuNa is a manufactured skating champion in the style of Kwan, but will never be as good as the original.

    Watch them both skate in Kim's show, and the difference is clear. Kim can jump and look pretty, but her manufactured style and presentation are simply emotionless, dull and uninspiring. Not like MK who could do a program with no jumps and leave people crying from the effect of watching beauty.

    SorryBoutIT Kim.
     
  20. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    I said I based my decision on the length of Kwan's career. Neither Kim or Kwan was the "first" to do anything, but I think it's significantly harder to skate a decade at a level that almost won two Olympics and won 5 World Championships; rather than win two Olympics but only 2 World Championships with a huge break in the middle and a career that was not as long.
     
  21. Robeye

    Robeye Curiously curious

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    Did you just run out of Prozac?

    (And aren't Kawais Japanese knock-offs? But don't worry yourself about that now. First things first. Go get your meds refilled)
     
  22. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I dunno if there's really anything wrong with that post. I mean that post is sort of par for the course for these sorts of threads.
     
  23. PairSk8Fan

    PairSk8Fan Banned Member

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    Sorry for my slip of the pen. The Korean piano knock-off company is SAMICK, not Kawai. Sorry about that. Still, Kim is a Korean-manufactured skating product and Kwan is a skater.

    Kwan will always be a better performer and skater. Again, look at their performances, one after another, in Kim's show. The difference in quality is SOOOOOOOOOOO obvious.

    Viva Kwan. And to Kim YuNa, may she endeavor to be HALF as good as Kwan was/is.....
     
  24. Robeye

    Robeye Curiously curious

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    One sees plenty of strongly worded fan opinions on skating boards. But there's something disjointed and weird about the tone of that post, like a manifesto from Ted Kaczynski. I'm half-convinced that it's some kind of put-on.
     
  25. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    Let's say that only WC/OG golds count, not total medals. Kwan still wins, with 5 WC's compared to Kim's 4 OG/WC's.

    Since the World Championships are the Olympics of non-Olympic years, the only way Kwan's accomplishments could be denigrated is if you don't count WC's in Olympic years. Kwan and Kim would still be tied with 4 golds, making them equally great skaters.

    OGM means a lot, but it's not everything. If OGM is all that matters, then the poll would be "Better skater - Kim, Witt or Henie" and Henie would win because she has three.
     
  26. Robeye

    Robeye Curiously curious

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    I agree that OGMs are not all that matter, but I'm pretty confident that it's also true that, among the vast majority who don't have an axe to grind (and that would include the skaters themselves), a single World title would not be considered as valuable as an Olympic gold medal. Skaters say things that support this, in one way or another, all the time.

    Your join date and post count imply that you've been around the block long enough to know this. Why the disingenuousness?
     
  27. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

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    If it were all about medals and titles Henie is best ever, Witt second best, and Heiss third best, and neither Kwan or Kim deserve consideration.

    No way is an Olympic Gold merely equal value to a World title. An Olympic Gold is of far more value than a World title, especialy if the Olympic Champion is also a multi World Champion who dominated skating for years as well, so in no way can it be inferred as a fluke result. Saying a World title is equal to an Olympic Gold is like someone saying the Grand Prix final title is equal to a World title.

    I have also always disagreed with the idea Kwan could ever be considered the best ever without an Olympic Gold. There is no way you should be considered best ever without the biggest title in your sport. It would be like Monica Seles being considered the best ever despite that she never won Wimbledon. Top 5 I would say is the best anyone without an Olympic Gold medal could possibly even be considered as.


    Lets break down Kwan and Kim's careers by event:

    Biggest event- Olympics. Kim wins
    2nd Biggest event- Worlds. Kwan wins
    3rd Biggest event- Grand Prix final. Kim wins
    Overall- Kwan 13 losses in 7 seasons in her prime (96 season to 2002 season), Kim 5 losses in 5 seasons in her prime (2008 to 2013 season minus the 1 season she skipped). Kim wins

    The only place Kwan has done better is the 2nd most important event. Kwan isnt even the best skater of her own era at the biggest and 3rd biggest events. Lipinski, Hughes, and Slutskaya have better Olympic records, and Slutskaya has a much better Grand Prix final record and more overall grand prix wins. Had Slutskaya won one of the two Olympics she had a chance to win, or one of the two Worlds where she barely lost to Kwan, Kwan probably wouldnt even be considered the best skater of her own era. Kim is by far the best skater of her own era at each event, including Worlds, despite winning "only" twice.
     
  28. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

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    Longevity is also overrated. If anything I find Kwan's 5 World titles less impressive given that she had to skate for 12 years and could only win back to back Olympic or World golds once in that long, even being favored by judges as the dominant skater almost that whole time, and could not win an Olympics despite being on top for the period of 3 Olympics. She was not as dominant as any of the following when you think about it:

    Fleming- 3 Worlds and Olympic Gold all in a row.
    Heiss- Olympic silver, then boom 5 Worlds and Olympic Gold.
    Yamaguchi- 2 Worlds and Olympic Gold all in a row, then 4 World Pros in 5 years.
    Kim- although Kim too is less dominant than some of these I must say.
    Witt- 4 World titles and Olympic Gold in 4 year span, only 1 loss.

    Those are only the modern day skaters.


    When people review Kim's World record one should also use some context. She has won only 2 Worlds, but was completely dominant in her 2 victories, even more dominant than Kwan in her 2 most dominant in 1998 and 2003, and dont make me laugh by even implying tougher competition as the field both those years were a collasal joke. Kim has won the long program at Worlds 4 times and the short program 4 times, yet gotten only 2 titles out of that. She has 2 golds, 2 silvers, and 2 bronzes, in only 6 World appearances, and lost the gold by less than 2 points twice. So 2 World titles is really a harsh indicator of her performances at Worlds. Kwan at Worlds has won the short program only 3 times and the long program 5 times so has won only the same number of programs as Kim, and that was in 12 appearances at the event vs only 6 for Kim.

    Kwan is still overall better at Worlds with her 5 titles but it is not enough to overcome her inferiority relative to Kim in every other aspect of her career.
     
  29. kathy sullivan

    kathy sullivan Well-Known Member

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    Oh good grief - could we please just stop. They are both amazing skaters. To each their own in your special appreciation of one vs the other and in deciding what factors matter in determining whose "best". They would both shrug their shoulders and shake their heads in response to this thread. Really hard to believe that any skating fan would not embrace and appreciate them both - they sure seem to honor each other with their obvious and profound appreciation of one another.
     
  30. ehdtkqorl123

    ehdtkqorl123 New Member

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    Sigh............