Better skater- Kim or Kwan

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by angelflies, Jul 24, 2013.

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Better skater- Kim or Kwan

  1. Kwan

    105 vote(s)
    43.2%
  2. Kim

    138 vote(s)
    56.8%
  1. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Of course, american skaters get no pressure from USFSA :p
    And the problem with Mao is that she has her 3Axel, but a lot of underrotations that leave a lot of points :(
     
  2. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Member

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    Mao without her 2 mistakes at the 2010 Olympics would have easily beaten either Tara or Michelle at the 98 Olympics. Tara skated her best but Mao is a much better all around skater than Tara. Yet Kim would have still easily beaten Mao even without those 2 mistakes. Kim from Vancouver would have easily won any Olympics, so there is no even indirect way to lowball her Olympic competition in comparision to anyone, but not surprised some would be desperate enough to try.
     
  3. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    :rofl: I can think of a skater Kim could not have beaten even if Kim had all the triples.
     
  4. Kwantumleap

    Kwantumleap New Member

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    91 Harding? Ito? Yamaguchi?
     
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  5. Kwantumleap

    Kwantumleap New Member

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    @kwanoverrated
    Too bad Yuna didn't compete against the Mao you're talking about at the Olympics. Her underrotations are also a major issue under CoP, something that would have not hurt her as much under 6.0.
     
  6. HVS

    HVS Member

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    I did NOT say Kwan has NO pressure, just NO comparison. USFSA is nothing if we compare them to the whole Korea nation with 50 millions people ;)
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2013
  7. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    bardtoob and (deleted member) like this.
  8. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    I think you are perhaps looking too much into it. Jeff comments were in line with the questions asked about each skater. He was asked about Yuna because he worked on the choreography of one of her earlier programs. So it is natural for him to make comments from the point of view of a choreographer. In addition, he obviously admires Wilson's work very much and his success with Yuna is so well-known. The question about Mao from Jenny was specifically in regards to her off-ice personality and Jeff answered the question accordingly. Also, his answers for each skater shows type of collaboration he had with them. His responses about Yuna are in line with what a choreographer would say about a skater with whom he had worked. Although he does choreography for Mao's ice show, they were group numbers and that is quite different from an actual competitive program for one skater. Thus, his responses are more in line with what co-workers would say about each other. You could also see this pattern with other skaters he has worked one on one with choreography (Yuzuru and Liza). His comments are more specific in nature.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2013
  9. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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  10. Robeye

    Robeye Curiously curious

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    I am a bit perplexed as to who I'm conversing with. Whatever happened to this poster:

    I have always disagreed with the statement above. What surprises me is that, evidently, you now seem to similarly disagree. You will forgive me if I refrain from more substantive reply until I think about what it all means. Or do I look too much into it?
     
  11. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Yuna is a much better jumper and faster. Basic skating they are about equal. Artistry Michelle is ahead, although Yuna is still strong there as well.
     
  12. ponta1

    ponta1 Active Member

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    Yes
     
  13. RickInSanJose

    RickInSanJose New Member

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    I think a much more important question is this: What figure skater will make the greatest difference for good in the world over the next fifty years?

    The answer is, Michelle Kwan will. Indeed, that future is unfolding even now.
     
  14. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I'm a big Kwan fan too, but let's not go overboard. I don't think it's fair to compare post-skating lives of any skaters because people have their own paths. By comparing the post-skating careers of two skaters in a competitive way, we're going into territory where we're judging people's personal life choices and deeming one person a "winner" in life. I just don't think that's right. Plus, Yu Na Kim and Michelle Kwan are in different stages in life, so it would not even be a fair comparison if we were to do that. Additionally, we don't know what's in store for Kwan in fifty years, so it's pretty presumptuous and bold to predict she'll "make the greatest difference for good in the world" even if she's doing good work now.
     
  15. kathy sullivan

    kathy sullivan Well-Known Member

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    All I know is that I have watched and continue to watch many of Michelle's classic programs multiple times - and am just as compelled by them each time I see them as I was the first time I saw them. I feel the same chill and enjoyment and inspiration and I never tire of them. I think YuNa is a magnificent skater - but the only program of hers I have ever watched more than once was her olympic LP - and that I watched twice and while it was really good - I have never had the impulse to watch it again. There is something about Michelle's performances - especially her classic clean skates- that I cannot quantify and never tire of. I know it is the feeling they inspire in me, and something about her ability to embody emotion on ice entwined with her amazing skill and consistancy under pressure - that is mesmerizing. For these reasons- until I find another skater that can make me feel that way - she is the greatest skater of any that I have seen.
     
  16. orientalplane

    orientalplane Mad for mangelwurzels

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    Anything's possible, but Kim has donated over $2m to charity, so I reckon she's winning that argument at the moment.
     
  17. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Sigh...
     
  18. falling_dance

    falling_dance Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure this won't come as any surprise, given my sig line, but I think orientalplane has a point. ETA: Given that the post she responded to treated Kwan's future greatness as a dead cert, I think it's fine to point out something big that another skater has done, and, yes, even to follow that up with the assertion that she "reckon[s Kim] is winning the argument at the moment." For one thing, it might well have gone unsaid otherwise, despite the prolificness of many Kim fans here. For another, saying that it's certain that one skater will make more of a positive difference over the next fifty years than any other skater seems as dismissive of everyone in the latter group as it does adulatory of Kwan, so why shouldn't a fan of a different skater "strike back"? RickInSanJose might not have meant for his post to sound that way, but that's probably how it looks to some readers.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2013
  19. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Well, I just found both comments to be off-putting for reasons I already stated in my response to RickinSanJose. That said, I do think you have a point in that orientalplane may have only responded in that way because the initial post called for it.

    However, the idea that anybody can really win in that sort of sphere is really twisting the idea of public service and charity. Maybe I'm just negative about it because I personally worked with people who did have underlying motivations for personal glory. On another note, I also think fans of figure skaters who choose to compare the post-lives of skaters as a way to continue some sort of weird rivalry is pretty perverse (like when a lot of Kwan fans try to demean any of her former rivals' post-skating lives despite the successes of her former rivals).
     
  20. orientalplane

    orientalplane Mad for mangelwurzels

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    There's no rivalry, weird or otherwise, as far as I'm concerned. Kwan and Kim are skaters of different eras; when Kwan's career was ending, Kim's was just taking off. In my opinion, Kwan was a great skater, and so is Kim. I thought RickinSanJose's post was quite absurd in its prediction (to state categorically that a certain situation as far ahead as 50 years will occur, when almost ANYTHING could happen) and thought I'd throw in a different opinion based on another facet of making the "greatest difference for good".
     
  21. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Member

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    and who would that be? It wouldnt be based on anything whomever it is ever did in an Olympics. Kim's Vancouver performance would have easily won any Olympics in history. There might be other events you could argue her losing with that (although even that is difficult) but not an Olympics that has ever occured.
     
  22. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Member

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    Lets put it in simple forms for you. Kim skated right away Mao's outstanding short program, which was far superior to Lipinski's or even Kwan's short programs from Nagano. She beat it handily. Kim skated before Mao in the LP and still did what she did. Mao's LP from Vancouver might not have been better than Lipinski's in Nagano due to the 2 mistakes, but Kim did not know that she would have 2 mistakes, and without those 2 mistakes her performance would have easily trumped Lipinski form Nagano, yet still easily lost to Kim. Kim had already faced the pressure of skating after a great Mao in the short, and already ensured herself the gold medal before Mao even skated in the LP even had Mao delivered her potential best (which is much better than Tara's actual best which only won in Nagano since Kwan failed to produce hers). So really your point about tougher competition as an excuse for why Kwan doesnt have an Olympic Gold and Kim does is bollocks.

    Anyway the Vancouver field was about 10 times deeper than the Nagano field which had 2 great skaters and a bunch of nothing after that. Kwan and Lipinski could have fallen 4 times and still won gold and silve.r People today call Vancouver the best ladies Olympic event, maybe the best Olympic ladies skating event in history, and Kim won it by a whopping margin. There is no way to even attempt to belittle that.
     
  23. orientalplane

    orientalplane Mad for mangelwurzels

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    Don't be too hard on her; she tries her best.....:sheep: :gallopin1
     
  24. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    Could she have beaten Trixi Schuba at figures? :)
     
  25. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Member

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    Well Seyfert didnt at the 68, 69, or 70 Worlds and still beat Schuba easily so who says she would have to. She just would have to not be really bad at them like Janet Lynn was.
     
  26. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    :rofl: And you do not think these results had anything to do with Jutta Mueller being Gabby's mother and coach.
     
  27. briantoronto

    briantoronto New Member

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    and a great triple flip-triple toe combination, the ability to do a whole variety of jump combinations with ease while Kwan cant do any difficult combinations besides a triple toe-triple toe, bigger and much higher quality jumps than Kwan, better and more complex spins, much more speed and power and ice coverge, and arguably more flow and fluidity.

    Skating wise I find all Kwan has over Kim is more perfect positions, better feet and turnout, and slightly better spirals. Anything else Kim can match or best her in. She is every bit as musical, she skates with as much soul and passion, she is as elegant and graceful in the way she moves around while arguably being more fluid, her choreography is just as strong as younger Kwan and much stronger than older Kwan, her footwork is just as strong, her field moves too, and her basics and edge quality or as strong or stronger (probably stronger seeing how much more easily she can build up huge speed and change directions doing complex choreography while not even pushing for it).

    As for nothing other than the OGM is 3 Grand Prix final titles vs only 1 nothing? Kim's greater dominance of the general seasons over the years is nothing. Kim skating in and winning Four Continents once while Kwan never bothered to compete in or win it is nothing. If so then you obviously believe nothing at all matters besides Olympics and Worlds which would negate any value of Kwan's U.S titles or anything else too, and in which case Kwan has nothing over Kim besides more World titles, just as Kim has nothing besides the OGM.


    Kim's triple lutz-triple toe and triple flip-triple toe combinations, which she doesnt include both at once only since the many ways stupid rules dont reward, are both signature moves for her. She didnt invent those, just like Kwan did not invent either of the moves you pointed out, but nobody in skating history ever did those incredibly difficult combinations as often or as easily or as well as her, not even Ito or Harding. For years she did those with huge speed, huge flow out, ease, and practically never missing one, and included one in every program.

    If inventing moves or having signature moves makes you better skater or legend than Karen Magnussen must be the best skater ever. She has 5 or 6 original moves she invented, yet she is overshadowed in her own era by Lynn and Seyfert as a freeskater. Sasha Cohen and Shizuka probably has created more original moves than either Kwan or Kim too.


    The poll isnt lopsided. Kwan has over 40% of votes. People see them as very close. What is the problem.
     
  28. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    And Trixi wasn't at her peak in those years--not to mention the old practice of holding skaters back. Could Yu Na have beaten Peggy Fleming at figures in '68? Would she have bothered learning the 3-3 when figures were 60% of the score? You just can't compare one era to another.
     
  29. briantoronto

    briantoronto New Member

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    Well Kim probably would have won the 2006 Worlds over Meissner who she never came close to losing to as a junior or senior skater had she been allowed to skate. Or been 2nd posisbly to Mao had she also been. Either way Kim in 2006 was atleast as strong a skater and medal caliber threat as Kwan in 1995 who skated her best at Worlds and still didnt medal. So if we use Kwan 95 as her starting point and 2006 for Kim, and Kwan' finish point as 2005. Well seeing as that would only mean 2016 for Kim, Kim at that point would probably be still winning gold or silver at Worlds if she chooses to compete. Seeing how dominant she still is, does anyone really think she wouldnt still be on top and fighting for gold in just 2 or 3 years if she even wanted to compete. Not likely. By 2004 and 2005 Kwan was only a contender for bronze.

    Kim after next year will probably have 2 Olympic Golds so no motivation to skate 10 or 12 years after her first medals, but if she did she would do just fine.
     
  30. briantoronto

    briantoronto New Member

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    Fleming would have easily beaten Schuba had she stayed around. She was just as strong or stronger in figures and blew away Schuba in free skating. Schuba was lucky Fleming and Seyfert both retired early and her main rivals were all so weak in figures.