Better skater- Kim or Kwan

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by angelflies, Jul 24, 2013.

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Better skater- Kim or Kwan

  1. Kwan

    105 vote(s)
    43.2%
  2. Kim

    138 vote(s)
    56.8%
  1. Simone411

    Simone411 aka IceSkate98

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    You're right. It doesn't have to do with Yuna. It has to do with the Kween and why I voted for her. :D

    Thank you for observing. I also like Yuna but my vote was for the Kween. :)
  2. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    Good point about 11 worlds and 08 worlds. Kostner was highly overscored there, and Kim shouldve won at least silver. In 2011 I see how Ando won, but loved Kims program actually, and think its one of her most underrated.
  3. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Member

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    I thought Ando should have beaten Kim by atleast 3 points in the short program so if Kim had won the LP by 2-3 points I would be fine with Ando winning, but there is no way Ando should have won the LP over Kim. Just like there is no way Kim with a fall and no 3-3 try should have won the SP over Ando's gorgeous skate. So in that way I just found the judging wierd and inexplicable. Probably some more COP sticklers like backloading, too many combinations, levels, code whoreing done better that casual fans have no patience for, even trying their hardest to understand COP.

    Koster at the 2008 Worlds was one of those awful moments alot of people probably stopped watching skating. Fortunately there hasnt been a judging decision quite that bad since then.



    I dont like when people say outright so and so would have done so and so more if they were from another country either, but it also would be silly to deny skaters coming from bigger and more powerful federations like Russia, Japan, U.S would have a natural advantage over someone like Kim coming from a country with no skating history and no strong federation. It would be silly to think this has no effect. It makes her achievements all the more impressive, and another reason I would pick her over Kwan.

    Lets say Kwan was from Korea, would she have the same career she has now or even close to it? Sorry I cant imagine, although I am sure she would have won atleast 1 World title at one point, but nothing like the success she had. Kim being from a stronger country with a stronger federation probably would have achieved even more, I wont say specific events, but in general this is a boost to any skaters chances. Yet even with this Kim still has managed to have a similar or slightly better career than Michelle, and if she wins next years Olympics distinctly better.
  4. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    It's all conjecture. Nobody knows what Kwan could have done had she been given the same opportunities and push Yu Na Kim had that contributed to her early training and success. Again, I think it makes no since to compare eras since Kim benefitted from the technical and artistic strides the skaters in Kwan's era made just as how Kwan definitely benefitted from the likes of Yamaguchi, Ito, Harding, etc. I think coaches (especially the developmental ones) observe the direction in which the top skaters of that time are taking skating and are finding ways in which their up-and-coming skaters can not only succeed the way the top skaters are succeeding but also stand out and maybe improve on what the dominant skaters are doing. I mean Kwan was undeniably a source of inspiration for Kim.

    This is not meant to take anything away from Kim because she's obviously an extremely rare case in that she really is technically so sound that she's nearly unbeatable with this scoring system if she skates well.

    I do agree with you on one point though. I really did almost quit watching skating due to the ladies results at 2008 Worlds despite being so happy that Buttle and Delobel/Schoenfelder won. After seeing Nakano score and place the way she did, and seeing that mess Kostner put out win a medal...I could not gel with COP (and I still have lingering animosity towards it). Of course, now I love Kostner and actually want her to win gold over Asada and Kim (though I do like Asada even if I don't like her LPs as of late).
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2013
  5. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    I can't believe Kwan is not winning. It's true her jumps are not as good as Kim's but she had qualities of line that Kim does not. People also cried during Kwan's performances. Are folks choosing technical difficulty and speed over elegance and art? I guess it is the age old competition that dates back to the 80s of the artist vs the athlete. Both Kwan and Kim embody aspects of both archetypes, but Kwan arguably achieved more with audience emotion.
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2013
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  6. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I think people are also considering the titles and the domination Kim has. It's hard to deny Kim since she has won the Olympic Gold medal and has won it in a pretty dominant fashion, and recently won 2013 Worlds in a similarly dominant way. People are acting as if Kim already has the second gold medal in the bag, but with the way she's scored and actually rises to the occasion compared to her closest competitors, I'd say it's a pretty educated guess.

    If Kwan had two more judges go her way in Nagano, then I think she could have had a stronger argument in her favor. I still voted for Kwan though for reasons outside titles.
  7. Robeye

    Robeye Curiously curious

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    Believe it or not, people also cry during Yuna's performances. ;)

    I have no intention of knocking Michelle (I am proud of myself for holding out so far and not voting on this perfidious poll :)), but Yuna is just as strong artistically, IMO, as she is is athletically. Even Michelle acknowledges this openly. For sure, Michelle was a formative figure in the young Yuna's life, which Yuna also openly acknowledges. They are not contemporaries, so this is not a zero-sum game; to say Yuna is a complete skater should not be seen as detracting from Michelle, which is, it sometimes seems to me, how some of Michelle's fans choose to take it.

    And how about Jeffrey Buttle, an artistic skater if there ever was one, and one of the up-and-coming choreographers on everyone's radar. Here are some of the things he had to say about Yuna in his recent interview on The Skating Lesson (from about 50:00 to 50:30): http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3Vr6_rb7iRc

    "...when she started working with David, he really brought something out of her, like a passion, really managed to get her heart on her sleeve, her soul became more visible..."

    "...she just moved so naturally..."

    "...her arms are hypnotic...I don't know anyone who can move her arms like she does...I don't know how she does it..."


    Particularly when listened to rather than just read, these are not the words of someone hemming and hawing (curiously, Jeff does his hemming and hawing when describing Mao, with whom he has presumably worked more closely; the best he could come up with was that Mao was really really (really) nice, not a mean bone in her body...). His comments describing Yuna's aesthetic qualities strike one as spontaneous, fluent, enthusiastic, dare I say, even impassioned? Almost like a uber, in short. Welcome to the club, Jeffrey. :p
  8. riveredge

    riveredge Active Member

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    not by her fans.. ;)
  9. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    The way I made the decision was-

    The question is who is the better skater, not who has the OGM. In terms of world titles Kwan is still ahead of Kim (5 vs 2). In terms of Olympic medals Kwan is still at a 2-1 advantage (that will change in 2014). IMO the only things Kim has over Kwan are- 1) An OGM, 2) a 3Lz-3t combination. Kim is an amazing skater and when her career comes to an end (or even before that- say in Sochi with a second OGM), she could surpass kwan. However, right now, in terms of career alone, Kwan has an advantage. She had a much longer career, more championships, and 9 US title in a very competitive field (unlike Kim who has an easy title in her home country).

    On top of that, Kwan had an amazing ability to connect with the music and with the audience. She had many signature moves (e.g. COE spiral, falling leafs). Right now I can't think of one for Kim, although she is a beautiful skater and artist too.

    Barring a skating order in 1998, Kwan would have been the undisputed queen- she did deliver a clean SP & a clean LP- and we wouldn't be seeing a lopsided win for Kim in this poll.
  10. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

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    One could also say the only thing Kwan has over Kim is more appearances at Worlds (and as a result more titles). Kwan has 5 World titles to Kim's 2 but she appeared in 12 or 13 Worlds. Kim in 6 Worlds has 2 titles, 2 silver, 2 bronze, so about same success rate, and is probably the only skater who had a long career to never fail to medal at Worlds. Kim has also won the long program 4 times at Worlds, and the short program 4 times, so is a bit unlucky to only get 2 titles out of htat. So Kwan has more titles and medals but isnt anymore productive. In such a long career Kwan could only defend her World title once. OK Kim never has thus far, but she did win Worlds and Olympics back to back which is more important.

    The biggest event in skating is the Olympics. This is indisputed. Second is Worlds. Third is U.S Nationals for Kwan but Kim couldnt compete in that so we cant count that. Next biggest for both is the Grand Prix final. So Kim is much better than Kwan in both the biggest event of all and the next biggest event both can do after Worlds, with Kwan only better in the second biggest event due to having a longer career. In the general grand prix and smaller scale events, Kim is also more dominant than Kwan, even though both were irregular participients at both points in their career.

    Overall Kim has the better career. She dominated everywhere- Olympics, World, Grand Prix final, regular grand prix. Kwan only dominated one place- Worlds, that and U.S Nationals. I would rather Kim's career than Kwan's.

    As for who is the better skater Kim is a much better technical skater and almost as good an artistic skater so that would be her too. Prime to prime Kim would win most confrontations between them under either scoring system. I dont think Kwan could have ever beaten a clean Kim. She would have had to wait for Kim to make mistakes to hope to beat her, it would be like Butyrskaya or Hughes or Lipinski facing Kwan, except Kwan would be relegated to being Lipinski or Butyrskaya or Hughes.
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2013
  11. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Kwan was just 14 when she first competed at worlds (1995) and narrowly missed a bronze (only because she was a little girl, even though she skated the cleanest program). She never failed to medal at worlds until 2005, when injuries finally caught up with her. So let us see how Yu na does 10 years after her first appearance.

    No, Kwan could not have beaten Kim because they trained under two completely different systems and two very different times in FS history. Had Kim skated when Kwan was at her peak, quite possibly Kwan would have beaten her. She was one of the best competitors in ladies FS history. Also she never took a break from worlds. Kim did, to recuperate.
  12. museksk8r

    museksk8r Well-Known Member

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    :shuffle: Well, to be fair, Jenny specifically asked Jeff to speak about Mao's personality because "little is known about Mao's personality off the ice, so what can you tell us about Mao's personality and your relationship with her?" He stuck to the question asked and gave his impressions. No one ever asked Jeff to talk about Mao's skating abilities or how she compares to Yu-Na.
  13. Robeye

    Robeye Curiously curious

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    That is, formally speaking, a fair point. But as we know, these types of questions almost always serve as jumping-off platforms, in which the commentary quickly evolves and broadens out in a discursive way. It's not an interrogation with the IRS or the police ("stick to the facts, ma'am...").

    The question regarding Yuna was also typically broad (something along the lines of 'how did you get involved and what was it like working with her'), but through the usual chain of free-associative-speaking-out-loud, Jeff started moving away from the original question, barely touching on what it was like working with her, to, instead, talk in detail about the changes he saw after she started working with David Wilson, the particular aesthetic qualities that he quite clearly admires in Yuna, and so on. This pattern is par for the course for interviews as a format, and makes for interesting commentary.

    While acknowledging your point, Jeffrey answered the Mao question in a very narrow way, although it was quite evident from the way Jenny built up the question at the beginning that this was also supposed to be a highlight moment. He kept circling the same point, that she was polite and kind ("everything you'd expect a Japanese woman to be", or something to that effect), really nice, and actually I don't really know her at all, and doesn't have a mean bone in her body, and, hardworking, and sweet, and, oh, did I mention she was nice...? At the end, both Jenny and Dave were looking away somewhat awkwardly.

    I just thought that the almost "no comment" nature of the comment, and the lack of any evolution and development in the response, was somewhat curious.

    What I really got out of that is that Mao, despite a sunny and friendly public persona, is probably just as hard to get to really know as the supposedly (if we are to believe the descriptions of some of her detractors) more imperious Yuna. Which makes sense to me. They are both superstars, and a bland sunniness is just as serviceable (and is sometimes better) as armor against a prying world as a seemingly aloof reserve.

    My main point, though, was that, by comparison, Jeff's recounting of Yuna's aesthetics was full-throated, done with pith and point (by way of contrast with some of the opinions on this thread).
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013
  14. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    Michelle first competed at Worlds in 94 when she was 13. She finished 8th.
  15. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely ! With a fantastic 7 triples LP (6 of them clean). Good start !
  16. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    the thread is fuming :2faced:
  17. Kwantumleap

    Kwantumleap New Member

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    Both are great champions. Kwan's career proves several things, including that the Olympics are overrated. I do not believe that all OGMs are created equal. For example. Oksana Baiul's OGM is not equal in weight to Tara Lipinski's or Sarah Hughes' OGM, because Oksana's competition was not as great as Lipinski's and especially Hughes'. Also, I think Kwan's 98 Olympic performances were better than the ones Oksana or even Shizuka won Olympics with. That said, it takes a whole lot of intangibles for anyone to skate the best in an Olympics. Where am I going with all of this? Yu Na's performances in the 2010 Olympics were amazing, but I wonder if it would have been any different had she faced more pressure from stiffer competition a la Kwan.
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013
  18. Fozzie Bear

    Fozzie Bear New Member

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    One thing that's apparent when watching them skate side by side: Kwan is better at moving fluidly. Her movements emanate from her core. Kim is fluid too, but not to the level that Kwan is. Imho.
  19. HVS

    HVS Member

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    I'm say Mao with 3 triple axel plus great artistry as well is extremely difficult competior to beat, let alone all of the pressure/ expectation from her country, these are more greater than any pressure Kwan has faced
  20. Karina1974

    Karina1974 Well-Known Member

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    This. Quite frankly, I found Kim's programs in Vancouver to be boring.
  21. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Of course, american skaters get no pressure from USFSA :p
    And the problem with Mao is that she has her 3Axel, but a lot of underrotations that leave a lot of points :(
  22. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Member

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    Mao without her 2 mistakes at the 2010 Olympics would have easily beaten either Tara or Michelle at the 98 Olympics. Tara skated her best but Mao is a much better all around skater than Tara. Yet Kim would have still easily beaten Mao even without those 2 mistakes. Kim from Vancouver would have easily won any Olympics, so there is no even indirect way to lowball her Olympic competition in comparision to anyone, but not surprised some would be desperate enough to try.
  23. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    :rofl: I can think of a skater Kim could not have beaten even if Kim had all the triples.
  24. Kwantumleap

    Kwantumleap New Member

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    91 Harding? Ito? Yamaguchi?
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  25. Kwantumleap

    Kwantumleap New Member

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    @kwanoverrated
    Too bad Yuna didn't compete against the Mao you're talking about at the Olympics. Her underrotations are also a major issue under CoP, something that would have not hurt her as much under 6.0.
  26. HVS

    HVS Member

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    I did NOT say Kwan has NO pressure, just NO comparison. USFSA is nothing if we compare them to the whole Korea nation with 50 millions people ;)
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2013
  27. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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  28. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    I think you are perhaps looking too much into it. Jeff comments were in line with the questions asked about each skater. He was asked about Yuna because he worked on the choreography of one of her earlier programs. So it is natural for him to make comments from the point of view of a choreographer. In addition, he obviously admires Wilson's work very much and his success with Yuna is so well-known. The question about Mao from Jenny was specifically in regards to her off-ice personality and Jeff answered the question accordingly. Also, his answers for each skater shows type of collaboration he had with them. His responses about Yuna are in line with what a choreographer would say about a skater with whom he had worked. Although he does choreography for Mao's ice show, they were group numbers and that is quite different from an actual competitive program for one skater. Thus, his responses are more in line with what co-workers would say about each other. You could also see this pattern with other skaters he has worked one on one with choreography (Yuzuru and Liza). His comments are more specific in nature.
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2013
  29. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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  30. Robeye

    Robeye Curiously curious

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    I am a bit perplexed as to who I'm conversing with. Whatever happened to this poster:

    I have always disagreed with the statement above. What surprises me is that, evidently, you now seem to similarly disagree. You will forgive me if I refrain from more substantive reply until I think about what it all means. Or do I look too much into it?
  31. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Yuna is a much better jumper and faster. Basic skating they are about equal. Artistry Michelle is ahead, although Yuna is still strong there as well.
  32. ponta1

    ponta1 New Member

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    Yes
  33. RickInSanJose

    RickInSanJose New Member

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    I think a much more important question is this: What figure skater will make the greatest difference for good in the world over the next fifty years?

    The answer is, Michelle Kwan will. Indeed, that future is unfolding even now.
  34. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I'm a big Kwan fan too, but let's not go overboard. I don't think it's fair to compare post-skating lives of any skaters because people have their own paths. By comparing the post-skating careers of two skaters in a competitive way, we're going into territory where we're judging people's personal life choices and deeming one person a "winner" in life. I just don't think that's right. Plus, Yu Na Kim and Michelle Kwan are in different stages in life, so it would not even be a fair comparison if we were to do that. Additionally, we don't know what's in store for Kwan in fifty years, so it's pretty presumptuous and bold to predict she'll "make the greatest difference for good in the world" even if she's doing good work now.
  35. kathy sullivan

    kathy sullivan Member

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    All I know is that I have watched and continue to watch many of Michelle's classic programs multiple times - and am just as compelled by them each time I see them as I was the first time I saw them. I feel the same chill and enjoyment and inspiration and I never tire of them. I think YuNa is a magnificent skater - but the only program of hers I have ever watched more than once was her olympic LP - and that I watched twice and while it was really good - I have never had the impulse to watch it again. There is something about Michelle's performances - especially her classic clean skates- that I cannot quantify and never tire of. I know it is the feeling they inspire in me, and something about her ability to embody emotion on ice entwined with her amazing skill and consistancy under pressure - that is mesmerizing. For these reasons- until I find another skater that can make me feel that way - she is the greatest skater of any that I have seen.
  36. orientalplane

    orientalplane Mad for mangelwurzels

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    Anything's possible, but Kim has donated over $2m to charity, so I reckon she's winning that argument at the moment.
  37. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Sigh...
  38. falling_dance

    falling_dance Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure this won't come as any surprise, given my sig line, but I think orientalplane has a point. ETA: Given that the post she responded to treated Kwan's future greatness as a dead cert, I think it's fine to point out something big that another skater has done, and, yes, even to follow that up with the assertion that she "reckon[s Kim] is winning the argument at the moment." For one thing, it might well have gone unsaid otherwise, despite the prolificness of many Kim fans here. For another, saying that it's certain that one skater will make more of a positive difference over the next fifty years than any other skater seems as dismissive of everyone in the latter group as it does adulatory of Kwan, so why shouldn't a fan of a different skater "strike back"? RickInSanJose might not have meant for his post to sound that way, but that's probably how it looks to some readers.
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2013
  39. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Well, I just found both comments to be off-putting for reasons I already stated in my response to RickinSanJose. That said, I do think you have a point in that orientalplane may have only responded in that way because the initial post called for it.

    However, the idea that anybody can really win in that sort of sphere is really twisting the idea of public service and charity. Maybe I'm just negative about it because I personally worked with people who did have underlying motivations for personal glory. On another note, I also think fans of figure skaters who choose to compare the post-lives of skaters as a way to continue some sort of weird rivalry is pretty perverse (like when a lot of Kwan fans try to demean any of her former rivals' post-skating lives despite the successes of her former rivals).
  40. orientalplane

    orientalplane Mad for mangelwurzels

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    There's no rivalry, weird or otherwise, as far as I'm concerned. Kwan and Kim are skaters of different eras; when Kwan's career was ending, Kim's was just taking off. In my opinion, Kwan was a great skater, and so is Kim. I thought RickinSanJose's post was quite absurd in its prediction (to state categorically that a certain situation as far ahead as 50 years will occur, when almost ANYTHING could happen) and thought I'd throw in a different opinion based on another facet of making the "greatest difference for good".