Better career- Zhangs or Voloszhar & Trankov

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by ohashibiles, Apr 2, 2013.

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Zhangs or Volosozhar & Trankov, better career so far

  1. Voloszhar & Trankov

    78.3%
  2. Zhangs

    21.7%
  1. ohashibiles

    ohashibiles Member

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    Now that Voloszhar & Trankov have the World title that the Zhangs never won who has had the better career. I would still say the Zhangs since they have Olympic Gold and 1 more World medal and 6 more grand prix golds.
     
  2. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

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    The Zhangs never won the Olympic gold or even a world title.

    Is this another April Fool thread?
     
  3. ohashibiles

    ohashibiles Member

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    Well Tatiana & Max have only 1 World title, so not like they have alot. The Zhangs were robbed of the 2008 and maybe 2006 World titles so they should have atleast as many anyway. Tatiana & Max dont have an Olympic medal and the Zhangs have a high one- the silver. Add that to Zhangs having 6 more grand prix wins, and it becomes very close.
     
  4. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    Surely, an April's Fool thread.
     
  5. Kasey

    Kasey Loving on babies!

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    Wow, the Zhangs have 6 more GP wins in the 80 years they had been together....as opposed to V/T's 2 seasons on the GP. Yep, that seems to be a clincher.
     
  6. ohashibiles

    ohashibiles Member

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    Well do you take away from Kwans achievements compared to Lipinski since she competed 8 times as long. By that logic Tara is the better of the two since if she competed as long she would have done more. I am going by actual results and achievements, not what ifs if so and so had competed longer, been younger, been older, paired sooner, so on. Going just by achievements the two pairs are close, as each have edges on the other. Well Max and Tatiana have only one edge, the World title.
     
  7. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I don't like the Zhangs, but I've always maintained that an Olympic medal trumps a World title. This thread is premature, though, because V&T are almost certain to get a medal in Sochi... but on the off chance that something crazy happens and they don't.... it'll be the Zhangs.
     
  8. ohashibiles

    ohashibiles Member

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    In terms of ability too I go with the Zhangs since they were technically stronger and artistically both are so so, so it comes down to the more technical team and that is the Zhangs. Comparing their technical elements:

    Jumps- Zhangs more consistent and better unision.
    Throws- Zhangs bigger and more consistent.
    Twist- Zhangs bigger and better catch.
    Lifts- Not sure, maybe Russians by a bit.
    Spins- Zhangs, especialy the side by side spins.
    Footwork- similar.
    Death spirals- similar.

    So the Zhangs take the edge on technical which is the strength of both teams, the Russians best moves are beaten by the Chinese, and artistic wise they are similar so no difference there.
     
  9. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Wouldn't it be fairer to compare them after V/T have finished their eligible careers? The nature of your question is in the past tense, "who has had" and you can't answer it until V/T are done.
     
  10. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    V&T easily. Not only do they have a World title which beats anything the Zhangs achieved (including the Olympic silver) but they have a Grand Prix final title which is also a bigger title than any the Zhangs ever managed, and their winning Europeans twice is far more impressive than the Zhangs winning Four Continents against generally much poorer competition only twice.
     
  11. Kasey

    Kasey Loving on babies!

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    OK, so just going by achievements, let's see, how many world medals, GP medals, Olympic medals did the Zhangs have after competing together for only three seasons, and one of those seasons not being eligible for the GP at all? You don't want to make comparisons based on longevity, then make it on the same playing field.

    And all of this is simply in your opinion. Try showing comparisons of competition protocols to back you up on all of this. I'm pretty sure that some of your assertions as to who is better might change when actually looking at points and GOE awarded by the judges.
     
  12. taf2002

    taf2002 Texas slumlord

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    O M G. I don't know if I've ever seen the words "robbed" & the "Zhangs" in the same sentence unless the people being robbed where those behind the Zhangs. I've always thought that they were horrible skaters with a couple of big tricks. He would throw her like he was heaving a shot putt with no finesse whatsoever. And giving the edge on spins to them over V/T is insane. Spins were their worst element. I thought she Zhang improved a lot over the years but I'm not sure he Zhang ever did. No brain bleach on earth will ever erase the sight of them in their jungle costumes. :scream:
     
  13. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    Zhangs.
     
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  14. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Contradiction :p
     
  15. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    Thank God April 1st is over!!!!!

    What a ridiculous thread.

    One team (not even together anymore) skated since they were teens and had a career most skaters could only dream about. They never won World or Olympic gold, but most pairs teams haven't and they also have several silvers at the Olympics and Worlds combined.

    V/T had wonderful careers before they teamed up and continue to do so. They could win 2 Olympic medals (something the Zhangs and even S/Z couldn't do because the team gold wasn't around) but they aren't really done. I doubt they will retire in 2014 with no intention of coming back and as far as technique is concerned V/T are better on every level although I think the Zhangs did do the 2A+3T.
     
  16. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

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    How were they robbed of a world title in 2006? They skated horribly in the LP and were lucky to get the silver, which was mainly due to their very high SP score. The Zhangs were poor artistically and technically all they had were a couple of big tricks. They are not even in the same class as V&T. Their Olympic silver was a gift from the judges, and V&T have not even competed at the Olympics yet. It's a silly poll.
     
  17. mustafinabars

    mustafinabars Member

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    The Zhangs are one of the most overrated teams ever. They did not deserve any of their medals except maybe the 2009 World silver. Even taking their medals at face value for what they are though V&T are the better career. World Champions, 2 time European Champions, Grand Prix final Champions, silver or higher in all Worlds they participated in, winners of every grand prix event they have been in. The Zhangs, no World titles, only won Four Continents 2 times vs say the 5 Pang & Tong won in generally easy and weak fields, no Grand Prix final title, missing podium at Worlds over half the years they were in it.

    As for the Olympic Gold, V&T have a gold medal from the Sochi Olympics so they win even there.
     
  18. mustafinabars

    mustafinabars Member

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    Their Olympic Silver in Turino was one of the worst decisions I have ever seen in the sport. First off they should have been disqualified for the long delay. Secondly looking at the performance yes they had a great triple twist and great jumps, which the other two Chinese pairs both messed up (the jumps). However they botched both throws, their totally bombed quad throw try probably netted about 1 point, then with all the points it should have lost in PCS it would probably be a negative to 0 overall impact, and they stepped out of their 2nd throw and the judges correctly gave it -2 across the board. Their overhead lifts were shaky and weak, likely as a result of the accident, and yet were oddly scored high by the judges. Their other elements were never anything to write home about. Then on PCS, well they are rather weak at the best of times, but that enormous interuption of the program, and the very disruptive fall as it was, and they were even slower than usual and visibly tenative coming back (understandable) and their PCS were only 3 points behind Shen & Zhou and only 1 point behind Pang & Tong. Quite the crock. Even lowering their PCS by 3 or 4 points would put them out of the medals, and it is quite obviously they should have been atleast that much lower.
     
  19. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

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    I voted for V&T. I agree that the Zhangs have more titles, but they were never realistically considered the best Pair of any time period. They were always second/third/fourth fiddle to at least Shen/Zhao and also S/P, B/S, P/T at different points of their career. You can argue V&T are the very best pair currently (even if you think S/S are better, still you can recognize that V/T are worthy of consideration). I don't think there was any period you can make that argument for the Zhangs, which is why they have neither WGM or OGM.

    I also agree that their Oly Silver Medal, by far their most prestigious achievement, should have gone to someone else.
     
  20. mustafinabars

    mustafinabars Member

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    S/S are not even arguably better than V/T right now. Only an idiot would attempt to make that argument. Last year they were super close, with S/S edging ahead on the judges cards atleast (I thought that was wrong both times but very close), but V/T have dominated this year, deservedly beating S/S at Europeans, and then being on another planet from them at Worlds, and S/S also did very poorly in losing one of the other events they werent facing V/T too. Only a German would try and argue S/S are best currently.

    As for Z/Z yes they were never the best. They were favored to win the 2006 Worlds and were considered the best Chinese team over S/Z and P/T that year despite P/T winning Worlds and S/Z's career legacy, but Totmianina & Marinin were clearly the best team that year and easily beat the Zhangs at all events, so even winning Worlds with T/M no there wouldnt have really made them the best.
     
  21. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    I don't think I can answer this yet because the career of V&T is not yet over.
     
  22. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    The Zhangs have a better career so far due to the Olympic Silver which is worth about equal to a World gold. An Olympic Gold is worth 1.5 World golds, unless you win a 2nd one straight and then it is worth 3.5 (which means 5 World titles for the 2 Golds combined) since that is so hard to do. Anyway that has nothing to do with either of them. However with Zhangs Olympic silver negating out Volsozhars World gold the Zhangs would come out ahead. Volosozhar has a Grand Prix title gold but that is only equal to a World silver roughly. So lets say Voloszhar has 1 World gold or Olympic silver, and 3 World silver with Grand Prix final title one of those three. Zhangs have 1 Olympic silver or World gold, along with 3 World silver and 1 World bronze. Zhangs slightly ahead. Zhangs more longevity and more grand prix and small events wins so a bit ahead now. Voloszhar win atleast silver at the Olympics which they should, and they really should win if they skate anywhere near normal, they will be ahead though.

    In technical ability they are close. Volosozhar have even better twist, and better lifts. Poor Zhangs had most amazing twist ever but have been overtaken now by Voloszhar. Zhangs though had better side by side jumps and better throws since Volosozhar has often shaky landings even on clean throws which sometimes mean low GOE and even negative. It is what cost them 2012 Grand Prix final to Germans even though the Germans had mistakes, had weaker twist by far, and the two teams had same PCS. Zhangs have better side by side spins, Volsozhar better pair spins. Voloszhar better death spirals, footwork the same, and spirals better by Zhangs. So technical equal. Artisticness goes to not sure. Both teams have alot of weakness in artistic. Zhangs improved as their careers went, while Voloszhar have stronger basics, speed, lines, than Zhangs, but boring programs and no choreography.
     
  23. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    I've heard people arguing the Zhangs deserved the 2008 Worlds. I wouldn't, but it was one of those events where no one really deserved to win.

    I think if V/T win the Olympics like everyone knows they will (biggest lock of the five events, imo), their one world title and one Olympic title will easily triumph over the multi-silvered Zhangs.
     
  24. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Not a fan of the Zhangs in the least but I do sort of feel they were robbed of the 2008 World title. It would suck to see them have won with that boring free skate performance, which had mistakes too, but given the competition that is probably the fair result. Savchenko & Szolkowy made so many mistakes that competition, 1 in the short, and 3 huge glaring misses in the free skate including a double fall on one side by side jump they took a long time to recover from. They received a flurry of grossly inflated GOE and PCS for that performance. The Zhangs had 2 smaller mistakes in the free program as their only problems. I do think S&S were seen as judges pet quite often from 2008-2009, generally the best pair, but often held up when they had major problems; which is why it was probably a shock to their systems and egos when Shen & Zhao came back and were the ones who got all the inflated scores and judges pampering that had been theirs the 2 years prior (while S&Z made it easier by never having some of the meltdowns S&S had). Dube & Davison had the free program of the night and should have won that phase hands down, but while their short program was also very good, the 4th place standing and gap of 6 points to the leading Zhangs was correct. So really the Zhangs probably should have won the 2008 Worlds, and for as many times as they were gifted in their careers, that title probably would elevate their careers to a new level and possibly above where V&T currently are.

    As it is V&T with a World title, Grand Prix final victory, and two European titles are clearly above the Zhangs though. All 4 of those achievements are arguably bigger than the Zhangs biggest achievement, well except the Olympic silver definitely is above the Grand Prix final title, and the European title V&T didnt have to face S&S is probably worse less than a random World medal too.
     
  25. orientalplane

    orientalplane Mad for mangelwurzels

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    :lol: Got something against Germans, have we? Ukrainians? Tanzanians? Or are you just being generally unpleasant?
     
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  26. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    I think Dube and Davison would have been worthier champions than the Zhangs that year, though you are right that it wasn't a year in which there was a clear-cut winner.

    I agree about V/T, which is depressing because their programs are just awful and their marks, considering said programs, are obscene. What a waste of talent, imagine what they could do with halfway decent choreography.
     
  27. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    WTF? I've never heard this.

    The Olympics is just one competition of many that the skaters have. If a skater won gold at every competition for 4 years but at the Olympics they mess up and get 9th, they are not as good an OM who got lucky once and mediocre the rest of the time?

    This thread was silly months ago....
     
  28. Andofanatic

    Andofanatic Member

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    The real question at hand is how does a World title compare to an Olympic silver. Whichever is worth more is probably the winner of this thread so far. Might as well discuss it now as come February the debate will be closed with Maxim and blondies gold medal (or worst silver if they have disaester).
     
  29. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I think a World title usually trumps an Olympic silver, but even though World titles are treated equally on their faces, fans always argue how some World competitions were tougher than others.
     
  30. shady82

    shady82 New Member

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    I don't think World, Olympic, and other titles should even be converted in equivalents or quantified with these kinds of questions. I can't think of anything that the Zhangs do that is better than V/T. V/T even have Chinese-sized throws and twists, and the rest of their elements are of high quality as well. I don't get how Z/Z and V/T are considered similar for being strong technicians and relatively weak artists. V/T may not have the subtlety or sophistication of S/S, but they have strong basics, ice presence, and well-constructed programs (though not particularly imaginative).
     
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