Better career- Kwan or Kim

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by VolosozharGOAT, Mar 24, 2014.

?

Better career- Kim or Kwan

  1. Kim

    180 vote(s)
    55.6%
  2. Kwan

    144 vote(s)
    44.4%
  1. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,582
    I will never agree that Kwan choked at the 1998 Olympics. Skating two clean programs is not choking. Earning all 5.9s in the second mark, even though I disagreed with those too-high marks, is not choking. I don't think Lipinski's skate could have been beaten. Kwan's 98 nationals skate was very good but slightly overhyped because of the emotion of her back story, meaning she delivered flawlessly while injured in front of an American crowd. She could not duplicate that back story or have an home country crowd in Nagano so she did the best she could, which was skate two perfect programs in front of a much more subdued crowd in a country that the media kept saying favored Lipinski. It wasn't good enough but it wasn't a choke. 2002? That was an epic choke. She only needed to place second in the long program to win and couldn't do it.
     
  2. hertmirsh

    hertmirsh Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2013
    Messages:
    139
    I agree Kwan didnt choke at the 98 Games at all but some say she did. If there are some who think even Kwan at the 98 Games choked then it is quite realistic to say Irina at the 2001 worlds performing far worse and with significant errors did.
     
  3. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,582
    Very true. I agree with this.
     
  4. hertmirsh

    hertmirsh Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2013
    Messages:
    139
    Regarding Irina clean in big events I wasnt counting the 2002 worlds since she doubled a jump in the qualifying round, but I guess you could count that since the qualifying round really was meaningless and she was clean in the short and long, albeit a bland and unexceptional long that doesnt come close to the 3 times Kim was clean where she was exceptional each time. I had forgotten Kim missed a triple salchow at the 2009 worlds, so you are right, only 3 times.
     
  5. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Messages:
    774
    I'm surprised to learn this about Irina. I love her but I haven't seen all of her competition performances, and i assumed she had more clean competitions because of all her titles. She has 4 gpf wins!! i'll probably go back and watch some of her major wins to check

    Does the current grand prix final feature 2 long programs like it did back when kwan and slutskaya competed? I know qualifying round was eliminated after 2006 for worlds

    You know something unrelated to this thread that i noticed..as much as Michelle played it safe with 3-3 combos in competitions...she did have consistently tech-filled exhibition programs when compared to most ladies skaters :p her exhibition programs always had 3lz, 3s, 3t and 2a...in rare instances she would even add a jump she was having problems with, and in 2006 she added a 3lz-2t-2lo and 3f to her exhibitions. i'm not sure if her willingness to do all those triples in her exhibitions helped her consistency or just worsened her chronic injuries. probably both
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2014
  6. hertmirsh

    hertmirsh Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2013
    Messages:
    139
    Well at the grand prix final Irina has more clean showings than worlds and Olympics which is what I was talking about. She was totally clean in both programs at the 95-96 season grand prix final despite coming 2nd to Kwan. She was clean in each round of the 99-2000 edition, culminating with one of her best long programs ever (and better than anything she ever did at worlds or olympics, including 2005). I think she might have been clean in all rounds of the 2004-2005 too but I could be wrong. She had a clean long in losing to Mao in the 2005-2006 edition, but not a clean short. On average she skated better at the grand prix final, Europeans and Nationals than worlds, and Olympics is another notch down from worlds for her. Her long programs from the 97, 98, 2000, 2001, 2002, and 2005 worlds would still have all been good enough to win the 2002 and 2006 Olympics given the other performances.

    So I guess to give Irina her due if you consider the grand prix final and Europeans major events she has a number of clean or pretty much clean competitions at those, and she has more clean competitions at the grand prix final than either Kim or Kwan. Kim won the grand prix final 3 of the 4 times she was in it, but not sure if she was clean in any of those, if there was anytime it would have been 06-07. Irina just came down a notch from the other still "big" events for the really big event- worlds, and then like another two notches from worlds for the biggest of all- the Olympics. Kwan came up more and more the bigger the event (for her Nationals was probably bigger than the grand prix final) except for the Olympics. Kim came up a notch the bigger the event too, but in her case stretching right up to and including the Olympics, but not having to worry about Nationals as an additional annual big event like Kwan, or Europeans like Slutskaya.

    BTW I think 2 long programs at the final ended in the 2003-2004 season when IJS was first used.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2014
  7. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Messages:
    774
    Thanks for that
    I completely misread your earlier post and didn't know you were referring to Worlds and Oly only

    Those 3 clean competitions from Kim at Oly and Worlds are all her clean competitions, period, however that's amazing in and of itself because she basically delivered when it most counted
     
  8. hertmirsh

    hertmirsh Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2013
    Messages:
    139
    Cup of Russia 2007 I remember her having a clean long, but I dont remember her short. Did she have a clean short at that event?

    It is funny Kim has so few clean competitions if we focus on all competitions as you said, the really big, big, medium, small, relative terms, and yet she is the most consistent skater of the past era by far. I think Julia will probably far trump anyone from the era just finishing, Kim included, in consistency, as long as she doesnt grow. The question for her will be if her actual skating is good enough, even with the best consistency.

    IJS probably means consistency really hard though. The men are even worse than the women if you are talking about totally clean programs. That is one of the bad things about IJS, but maybe it just takes a period to catch up to things for the skaters with all the new demands on them.
     
  9. BmcC102

    BmcC102 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2002
    Messages:
    546
    Kwan!

    Give this thread ten more years, and Kwan will be back on top. I've personally never been able to get over Kim not attempting the 3 loop.
     
    bardtoob and (deleted member) like this.
  10. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2012
    Messages:
    719
    Who knows if Kwan would have under IJS either. First year of IJS, poof the troublesome triple loop for Kwan was gone, replaced by a 2nd 3flip which actually earned her more points (aka being smart in many cases under IJS anyway).

    BTW your comments pertain much more to a better skater type comparision which is a whole different topic to better career. Doing or not doing a triple loop doesnt really factor in ones career, other than the impact it might have had on your results and career.
     
  11. Kwantumleap

    Kwantumleap Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    3,942
    So is the debate over which skater pushed their generation more technically.
     
  12. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2012
    Messages:
    719
    Yeah but I am not the one who started that.
     
  13. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Messages:
    3,599
    Kwan stopped doing the 3Lp when her hip injury stopped her from doing so. In the 1998 Olympic season, she repeated the loop in the LP. Kwan would certainly have done all 5 triples if IJS had been in for her entire senior career.
     
  14. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2012
    Messages:
    719
    I imagine had IJS been around Kwan probably would have stopped doing the 3loop after 2001 since that is when her hip began bothering her. Since she never did the triple toe-triple toe after 2001 either (probably also due to her hip) there wouldnt have even been any benefit to her doing it either as she wouldnt be doing 7 triples, and a 2nd triple flip is worth more points anyway. The only reason Kim doesnt do the 3loop is her chronic bad hip which she dealt with her entire senior career, so both cases centre entirely around the hip for both ladies, just Kim dealt with hers even longer. Kim was warned by her doctor she was risking permanent harm if she continued doing the 3loop jump.
     
  15. beyoncerocks

    beyoncerocks Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    58
    I mentioned this on the mens thread but I give the following points:

    Olympic gold- 4 points
    Olympic silver- 2 or 3 points
    Olympic bronze- 1 point

    World gold- 1 point

    Kim and Kwan would come out of that tied with Kim having 3 more points from the Olympics and Kwan 3 more from worlds. They each have 4 other world medals and Kim has 2 extra grand prix finalt titles and greater overall record both in the grand prix final, regular grand prix, and fewer losses on average overall than Kwan. So based on that I would pick Kim but it is close.
     
  16. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2013
    Messages:
    198
    I wonder what the value of olympic medals should be. The problem with your points method is it would make the careers of Hughes, Urmanov, Kulik, and Sotnikova almost equal to Browning. Then again someone like Browning failing to win not only Olympic gold but even a medal, maybe deserves to have his amateur career devalued that much. That is a collasal failure in the worlds biggest event, atleast Kwan and others won medals.
     
  17. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    11,960
    I don't think a World gold is equivalent to an Olympic bronze.

    To me, the Olympics are a very big deal- but there is so much luck involved in the timing. I just don't see an Olympic Gold as being equivalent to 4 World Golds, as this system would put it. To me, winning Olympics is basically the same as winning Worlds, competition wise, just with more prestige. It doesn't actually mean the skater is any better.
     
    bardtoob and (deleted member) like this.
  18. beyoncerocks

    beyoncerocks Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    58
    Well I based my system partly on reading through the entire mens thread. It seems some think Evan has a comparable or even better career to Chan all due to the OGM (when Chan has an OSM). Even if you devalued the OSM to 2 world titles, putting it even further behind the OGM, and with an arguably inflated olympic medals value (according to you and probably some others) Evan's career would still come behind Chan's overall. So I assume for people to even consider the two of them close at all the Olympic medals must have that much value atleast, otherwise Evan would be light years behind Chan, even with the Olympic gold (say bumping it down to OGM = 2 world titles, OSM =1, OBM = 0.5, and now considering the rest of their careers Evan is way worse than Chan). Or is there just some crazy Evan fans who are delusional thinking his career comes anywhere near Chan's. I derived my formula for the men though, and just happened to carry it over for the women since I noticed this thread, but I mostly made it with the men in mind.
     
  19. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2013
    Messages:
    198
    Evan's career is nowhere near Chan's. There is a reason nobody would dare to make a thread comparing Evan to Chan, unlike a thread like this which atleast makes sense with two close skaters.
     
  20. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2013
    Messages:
    198
    Corrected, I notice two threads on the first page with Lysacek and Chan both in the title. I hope those were made 2 years ago, since if they were recent it is just more disgusting Chan hateorade.
     
  21. MrLucky

    MrLucky New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Messages:
    639
    I agree - Evan rose to the occasion and won the OGM.
    Chan, even when the OGM was practically handed to him managed to bungle it.

    Evan is forever an Olympic champion and Chan in future years will be remembered as the chosen COP wonder boy who choked big time under Olympic pressure (aka bright lights....cheers - everyone have a drink ;))
     
  22. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2013
    Messages:
    198
    Evan's existence in the sport is already forgotten. Chan is a legend forever, and I am not even a fan of his. Dominant skaters who win Olympics (Kim) > dominant skaters who dont (Kwan and Chan) >>> flukes who won the OGM (Hughes, Lysacek)
     
  23. MrLucky

    MrLucky New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Messages:
    639
    Chan is a legend forever for such momumental choking in Sochi. He even lost to Plushy AGAIN :lol:

    How he managed to bungle away the OGM will forever be the stuff of legends.

    That along with his highly disputed "COP poster boy" WC's will forever be disputed.

    I hope he enjoys his retirement as much as most skating fans will.

    A nice skater but obviously did not have the stuff it takes to be an Olympic champion.
     
  24. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2013
    Messages:
    198
    Chan has not confirmed he is retired. Considering there are tons of skaters way weaker than Chan who won the Olympics- Sotnikova, Hughes, pedophile Schwarz, Urmanov, Kulik, Poetzsch, Lysacek, your comment (didnt have the stuff) reeks of stupidity. I guess by your logic the great Kwan also isnt a real champion like those people too, after all she didnt win the Olympics, LOL!
     
  25. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2008
    Messages:
    594
    Evan isn't my favorite skater, but he is hardly a fluke. He is a former World champion and US Champion. He skated two clean programs to win the OGM. Plushenko lost because he didn't pay enough attention to the need to gain points on elements other than the quad and because he underestimated the competition. And since this is a Kim vs. Kwan thread, I choose Kwan, too.
     
    Messalina likes this.
  26. MrLucky

    MrLucky New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Messages:
    639
    I think Chan knows the vast majority prefer Hanyu's skating (fans and judges) so why would he return?
    Hanyu is only gong to get stronger and keep pushing the tech. Chan peaked 3 years ago and never learned a second quad or even mastered the 3A.

    I like parts of Chan's skating but I doubt if he will be a major player again unless he can improve his axel technique.

    As to Adelina - she mastered her nerves and owned the ice in Sochi. Chan did not. What part of that did you miss?
     
  27. rickmercer

    rickmercer Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2013
    Messages:
    104
    It is too early to ask this comparision. Kwan has been retired a long time so the effects (reduced appreciation or increased) of her having been away a long time are more felt. Whether Yu Na is less appreciated or more appreciated further removed from her own career remains to be seen. Right now she is fresh, so it isnt the same. Some skaters are seen more positively when they have been gone awhile- Zayak, Witt, Harding, Anissina & Peizerat, Klimova & Ponomarenko, Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze and many others less- Stojko, Yamaguchi, Sale & Pelletier, Totmianina & Marinin.

    PS- Dont know why Chan and Lysacek even come up but Chan will always be twice the skater Lysacek, the most untalented Olympic winner in skating history, is.
     
  28. staceyliving

    staceyliving New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2012
    Messages:
    22
    Before the Games I would have probably voted Kim but despite Kim adding an Olympic silver which should in theory boost her career I vote for Kwan now. Why. Well Kim suffering the humilitation of skating cleanly and losing to a skater as weak as Adelina Sotnikova proves she isnt that good like I thought. Kwan would never skate cleanly and lose to such a poor skater.
     
  29. The Observer

    The Observer New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2007
    Messages:
    810
    Yuna Kim obviously won the Olympic gold that always just eluded Kwan, but I think in terms of international recognition and sustained impact on figure skating and its t.v. audiences, Kwan comes out on top. U.S. figure skating in particular has never quite been the same since she left. Davis & White have come closest to reviving interest in the sport in America lately, but it may be a long time before a U.S. figure skater has her star power.

    Currently she is playing a very prominent role in trying to get her husband elected Governor of Rhode Island! :)
     
  30. HVS

    HVS Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2011
    Messages:
    185
    Sorry but this is the most stupid reason I've seen so far in this theard :lol:

    And I don't think outside the US Kwan received much recognition neither Yuna outside Korea, skating is not a big sport after all. In the skating world, two of them already at the same level, one of the greatest of all time, no doubt about that.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2014