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Better career- Kwan or Kim

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by VolosozharGOAT, Mar 24, 2014.

Better career- Kim or Kwan

  1. Kim

    181 vote(s)
    55.7%
  2. Kwan

    144 vote(s)
    44.3%
  1. HVS

    HVS Active Member

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    Oh well, Yuna is pretty much win this poll, who else can win over the kween these days? ;)
     
  2. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Active Member

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    Well what is so unique about being hyper flexible. Kreig, Ruh, Biellmann, Bobek, had all displayed that long before Sasha. The only difference is she won a few medals (well so did Denise but not many as an amateur due to figures and she isnt American). What are her signature moves that people are discussing. I dont recall hardly any. There was one spiral she did I recall which was very unique where she pulled her leg back around, and that is all. Did she invent any spins or any field moves or dance steps? Not any that I recall. Michelle Kwan has many more signature moves, the Charlotte spiral, the change of edge spiral, the falling leaf, the ina bauer she does where she changes directions. Irina was the first women to ever do the Biellmann on both legs, did the first ever triple lutz-triple loop.
     
  3. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    I know this wasn't addressed directly at me. I think it's great that everyone gets to express their opinions, and that's fine if you were bored by an entire 14 years of skating, but you IMO erroneously stated that it was a regression in term of the jumps attempted and landed as a justification for your underwhelming feelings. It's simply factually not true. Again, if you think an entire era is one big fridge break, more power to you, that's your right. But please don't make things up and not expect people to challenge you.
     
  4. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    I would definitely attribute all the bendy-ness out there today to Sasha.

    IMO her influence cannot be denied in many of today's skaters. She thrived under COP at that time due to her flexibility. I feel like a lot of the American girls that "were up and comers" during Sasha's era spent more time perfecting flexibility and less on actual skating skills. in the end we just had 75 lb rubber bands who couldn't amount to much after puberty due to the fact that they lacked basic skating skills, could no longer rotate jumps, etc... But boy they could hold their foot to their ear when they did a spin. Wahoo!
     
  5. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    That's not what I said at all. Talk about making things up. Here's the original quote of mine. For fans who like seeing high risk jump elements in the sport, 93-2006 was very underwhelming except for a few exceptions.

    I was extremely careful to word that carefully so someone wouldn't get their panties in a bunch. But then one uber fan did exactly that and kept insinuating that everyone loved that era which is completely untrue.That's what I objected to, not that I was being challenged about high risk elements, which by the way wasn't made up, erroneous or factually untrue. :rolleyes: You came back with exceptions, not standards, which didn't exactly support your defense, something others agreed with me about so let's not go down that road again unless you have some proof this time about the standards of the sport.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
  6. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    In fact, what you said was
    which is all completely untrue.

    Jumping difficulty didn't shot up. Midori and Kristi could now medal for doing the same programs they were attempting before.

    There was no slump, no matter how many times you try say it, you can't wish it into fact. Numerous 3/3 combinations and record breaking firsts happened during this period including the only quad ever ratified by a lady.

    Yuna didn't resurect jack. She's never landed a single jump or combo that wasn't done by others previously. And that leaves just Mao, who other than being almost as good as midori with the 3x, she didn't offer much jump advancement or innovation. In fact, spent most of her time relearning her triples from scratch because they were all wrong.

    This slump exists only inside your head, just own it.
     
  7. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Duh. Read carefully. Because Yuna and Mao got it back.on.track. From the time they retired to circa 2006, a healthy Ito, etc could have ruled the sport with the content they were doing during their prime. Yuna and Mao got the jump difficulty back on track to what Ito and Co. were doing circa 92 and thank God for that because for the few exceptions you keep listing, it had dipped substantially during 1993-2006. Exceptions are exceptions. They are not standards.

    Don't be so sensitive because you idolize Kwan so much. Just because you stomp your feet and repeat over and over again that there was no slump, it's not true. The standard for jump difficulty dipped substantially from 1993-2006 and just because you keep repeating one or two-time exceptions, which another poster broke down those examples as being just that, exceptions, doesn't mean it's true. You want to keep rehashing the same argument over again because it seems so important to you that everyone agrees with you. I'm okay with knowing I'm right and you're wrong. No skin off my back if you want to live in denial. Methinks the lady doth protest too much. :p
     
  8. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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  9. kwanlysacek

    kwanlysacek Member

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    The real first quad was done by Surya Bonaly. It is a joke Miki Ando is credited with it, and just another instance of the ISU insane bias towards Bonaly. Anyway though Ando is a Kim era skater not a Kwan era skater.
     
  10. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Well-Known Member

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    Oh you mean 4S<< and 4T<<

    It ain't a first if it ain't clean.
     
  11. kwanlysacek

    kwanlysacek Member

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    Please, Bonaly's quad toes she landed wouldnt even get a downgrade todays. They were a quarter turn or less underrotated (the couple better attempts that is, I know she had some worse ones). You really think if Ito or Harding had landed those same quads they wouldnt have been ratified, keep dreaming. Look at Browning's quad toe which was ratified, which was in no way better. Or Vern Taylor's triple axel which was far worse. Sabovcik did a better quad than Browning years earlier but it wasnt counted. There are certain skaters they dont want to be the first to do something and wont give them any benefit unless it is literally perfect.
     
  12. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Ando landed her quad in 2003, you know, that dreaded era where no lady landed anything harder than a double loop, before Caro with her no harder jump than a 3flip world win, and Mao with her UR issues. Luckily, Laura Lepisto rode in with her advances in jump history to save us all :lol:
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
    bardtoob and (deleted member) like this.
  13. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Ah, yes, Miki Ando's ever present quad that was her standard and a money jump for her. You either delight in hyperbole or enjoy flaunting to the world that you have reading comprehension issues.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
  14. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

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    I will take 100+ clean and beautiful triple lutz-triple toes and triple flip-triple toes, even if the jumps had been landed a couple times before, rather than one quad salchow landed as a 14 year old and never again. Ando would too, after all just compare the careers and achievements that came from the former vs the latter. It is hilarious anyone would think landing one quad salchow as an underaged junior, or landing 2 career triple lutz-triple loop combos high on the toe picks and barely held onto (Slutskaya), is a better technical progression than being the first women to regularly do the harder 3-3s easily and beautifully, in practically every program, and every competition (only Lipinski in her blip of a career comes close). Or being the first women since Ito to push the triple axel in a major way, in fact doing way more triple axels per competition at times than Ito did, and doing this despite not having the best quality or most consistent triple axel makes it even more impressive. How anyone could deny that is trying to push the envelope technically in a huge way and is less than someone who did one quad salchow is a big WTF.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
  15. shady82

    shady82 Active Member

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    I'm baffled people still think the 94-06 era is that weak. Consider the facts:

    - Ito was an outstanding jumper, but usually made critical mistakes during her most important competitions.
    - Yamaguchi did a 3lutz-3toe or 3flip-3toe sequence in most competitions until Albertville. Even then, she hardly ever skates a clean long because of the salchow.
    - Harding could do the 3axel and other big jumps, but almost never delivers.
    - From 2007-14, Asada and Kim usually gave the titles away to each other (or to Ando) by making critical mistakes in the short or long, or both. The only competitions where there was actually some kind of a head-to-head competition between top skaters because multiple competitors rose to the occasion were Sochi and Vancouver.

    I agree the Kwan-Slutskaya era was characterized by relatively easy jumping, but Michelle or Irina both skated very well at a major championship on multiple occasions. This is highly unlike the recent two quads when critical mistakes by multiple top contenders usually make a clear road for the eventual winner. The era was also important in pushing non-jump areas of skating. While Yamaguchi was considered to produce difficult choreography and artistic programs at her time, she would be average compared to top contenders during the quads after her.

    It's also close-minded to belittle the lack of men's jumping content 2005-2010. For the record, skating is not just about jumps. Spins, footwork, and choreography can be equally demanding physically, and we saw huge pushes in this area for the men during this time (Buttle, Lambiel, Takahashi, Abbott, etc.) even after the added complexity from CoP is taken into account. Today's top skaters (e.g. Chan) now have the technical goods of Yagudin and Plushenko, while also producing much more challenging work outside jumps.
     
  16. danibellerika

    danibellerika Active Member

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    I don't understand why it's difficult to believe that a prominent skater who was scoring well when this system was first implemented could be influential to the skaters now who were probably watching her on the world stage as they were growing up. But sure, Cohen is completely forgettable. That's of course why we're discussing her now :rolleyes: Her line, her carriage, her spins, and her positions as a whole thanks to her flexibility were great to see and she was rewarded for it with the points. The other skaters were nice as well but Sasha had her own style and they had their own and she is the more current than they are.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
  17. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Count yourself fortunate that was not addressed to you because the wording is creepy.
     
  18. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Good God. Two days later and you're still coming back to stir shit after the pot has already settled and the topic has gotten back on the real subject. All this after declaring that you were putting me on ignore. :rolleyes:

    I'll try to get this back on topic, at least until someone tries to make it about themselves again. Shady82, I can't remember anyone saying that the 93-2006 era was generally weak but that it was weak in the standard of jump difficulty. You even say the same thing in the first sentence of your third paragraph. Furthermore, Asada or Kim may have made more critical errors than Kwan or Slutskaya but isn't that more likely to happen when you're trying to set a higher jump standard? Some people would rather see safe, more conservative, clean skates; others prefer the higher risk elements that push the sport athletically, even if it presents less-consistent skates. There's room for both preferences. :)
     
  19. hertmirsh

    hertmirsh Member

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    This is only true of Kwan. Irina NEVER skated her best in world and Olympic competition. If by your logic Kim and Asada made it easy for each other all of the time, then along the same lines Irina (Michelle's only real competition 95% of her career) made it easy for her to win major championships all the time since Michelle never beat a particularly strong Irina to win any of her major titles. Even Irina's supposed great 2005 worlds she botched 2 elements in the short program, which she hadnt done all season until then, did 3 triple loops in the long and admits she forgot some of her spins and footwork at the end and had to make them up and take lower levels.

    Anyway here are Michelle's world titles:

    96 worlds- most impressive one. Beat a very good Chen although the other main contenders- Ito, Slutskaya, Bonaly, all skated poorly.
    98 worlds- splatfest, Michelle made mistakes and won with a lackluster performance in a watered down field since Slutskaya and Butyrskaya skated even worse, and both took themselves out of it after the short anyway.
    2000 worlds- skated great but was gifted the title on a gold platter by Irina and Maria both choking in their long programs.
    2001 worlds- Irina blew it in her long program again, and Maria was out of it after the qualifying.
    2003 worlds- Cohen, her only competition in this field, splatted her way through the whole week.

    Mocking that era for Ando winning a couple of world titles is also crazy when Ando is a top 5 jumper of all time, and is a far better skater than Sarah freaking Hughes who won an Olympic title in the Irina (and Michelle) era, and Butyrskaya who won a world title and a bunch of world medals and could have easily won 2 or 3 worlds and 2 Olympic medals in that era had she held it together at the 2000 worlds, 98 Olympics, and 2002 Olympcis and skated even decently in the long programs of those events (I wont bother with clean as like most top skaters of that era clean was a fantasy competition term for her). When Tara Lipinski was at her best she dominated Irina and Michelle, winning almost every major title for awhile, despite being a skater whose artistry was deemed as not very good and having teeny jumps with some technical issues (flutzing UR), and non remarkable non jump elements. Michelle was probably even then a better skater but was outcompeted regularly by Tara, the only truly formidable competitor she ever faced, since Irina was only adequate at best in that department.

    Atleast the Kim era had Kim who is a great competitor, Asada who is a very good one, Kostner who learnt to be a very good one the 2nd half of her career, Ando who is a very good competitor. The Kwan era had Kwan who was a great competitor, Irina who at best was a decent one, and that is it. Butyrskaya, Suguri, Chen (during rivaly with Kwan), Bobek, Gusermoli, Cohen, Arakawa, were all very weak competitors who were always known for expected headcasing and bombing. Also totally clean programs are way harder under IJS than under 6.0 so if you are finding the numbers done even comparable, well put today of the same group they would only go way down further.

    Kim and Asada are both better overall skaters than Michelle Kwan and have only the same number of world titles combined as her, so either Michelle is a way stronger competitor (unlikely, I dont think she is that much stronger, especialy than Kim who came up big at the Olympics where it mattered most which Kwan never could) or the field was alot weaker then (more likely).
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
  20. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I'd say Kwan was a stronger competitor than Asada. In 1998, it was down to a judges split decision (6-3). Kwan's performance was everything she was capable of given her toe injury in the two months preceding the Olympics and one of the strongest Olympic skates by any ladies skater (stronger than some Olympic gold medal winning performances).

    Miki Ando is a top five jumper? Maybe back in 2004Â…but I don't remember her jumps being that impressive (at least compared to say someone like Kim) from 2007-on.
     
  21. hertmirsh

    hertmirsh Member

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    Not really. Kim has had 4 major competitions she skated perfectly. Slutskaya has had 0. I already pointed out her 2005 worlds was not in anyway perfect, it was just the best she ever did in a world or olympic event but still with numerous errors as always.
     
  22. hertmirsh

    hertmirsh Member

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    Asada was broken down emotionally by the judges over the top lovefest for Kim (I am not saying Kim didnt deserve all her major titles, and was probably robbed of a few others, but her scores in 2009 and 2010 compared to Mao were exagerrated and dispiriting to poor Mao), and their overscrutiny of the things that she was doing- triple axels, triple combinations ending with a triple loop. I cant think of any women stronger than Mao in many ways. Even the very strong Kim or Kwan would have given up had they gone through what Mao did from 2009-2012 but not Mao.

    Even today they continue to demean her in everyway. Placing her 4th for what was clearly the best Olympic LP. Putting her 7 points below Sotnikova who was atleast a good 7 points worse (and the real 4th place long program but placed 1st to Mao's 4th). Thrashing her wonderful Worlds LP with a rash of < calls, most of them borderline at best, and probably would have gifted Julia L. the title over her in a huge farce had she gone clean.
     
  23. hertmirsh

    hertmirsh Member

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    My top 5 jumpers of all time (in no particular order) would be Ito, Harding, Kim, Asada, and Ando. If you disagree who would you call instead. The only other one I could even see possibly argued is Slutskaya, or maybe Zayak given how far ahead of her time in some ways she was.

    2007 was Ando's all time jumping peak in fact. She was pulling off 7 triple LPs and triple lutz-triple loop combos in short and long programs like they were nothing that year. It was impressive at worlds she was able to win with Asada setting a WR LP and Kim a WR SP which would both last for almost 3 years, even if she benefited from errors by each in the other program. She still had to do a perfect 10 triple competition with triple lutz-triple loop in both programs, and vastly improved artistry from her previous years, to pull it off. She still had a very strong triple lutz-triple loop although less consistent from 2008-2010, but some of the biggest jumps ever in womens skating. I say that as someone who hates Ando's skating, although grudingly acknowledge she vastly improved her spins, presentation, and overall skating after 2006 as well.
     
  24. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    It's 3 for Kim. 2010 Olympics, 2014 Olympics and 2013 Worlds.

    Are you sure Irina has never skated a clean competition? that's really disappointing if it's true, but I'm not so sure about that...I have to go to class so I'll get back to you
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
  25. MrLucky

    MrLucky Active Member

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    I think it is obvious the one who uses name calling and personal insults as a way to make a point is the insecure one.
    That is obvious to everyone.

    I don't agree with you at all as Kristi's 3S was neither here nor there. It was always up to Midori to skate her best on Olympic ice. If she did she would have been like Adelina - an Olympic champion.

    Not much to debate here if we know how it went down.
     
  26. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    I think Slutskaya went clean in her second victory at Russian nationals. I'm not sure she ever skated back to back clean programs in an international competition. I think her second long program was clean at the 99/2000 GPF and thought her short program was clean too, but when you add the first long program, it makes it unlikely that she had an entirely clean competition. But those 3 program GPF were incredibly cruel on the athletes anyway.
     
  27. giselle23

    giselle23 Well-Known Member

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    I'm pretty sure she skated a clean long and short at 2002 Worlds. She doubled a jump in the QR.
     
  28. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Interestingly enough, when Irina showed up for 2002 worlds, she admitted from the get go that she was underprepared and not nearly in the shape she should have been due to numerous post-Olympic appearances and would rely on past training and muscle memory to get through the competition. She wasn't even sure she could medal. Makes you wonder if such a relaxed frame of mind would have helped her win worlds a lot sooner.
     
  29. shady82

    shady82 Active Member

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    I completely agree that Kwan's era was characterized by less risky jumping. I was just pointing out that there are many people who use this justify a claim that Kwan and Slutskaya had weak competition - every time a poll pops up about 'who had the strongest competition', Kwan always comes out near the bottom :lol:. And people continue with claims such as 'Kwan's era had Malinina almost medaling, and Sokolova and Soldatova with medals' when the Asada-Kim era had Lepisto and Leonova with medals, and Kostner winning a title with 80s-level jump content.

    While pushing the technical envelope does lead to risk, I don't think the early-90s were necessarily characterized by more disastrous mistakes among top contenders than the 80s even with the huge push up in jumps.

    On the topic of Slutskaya's consistency, she didn't choke in 2000 and 2001. She performed strong longs in both competitions with 6 triples (and a 3-3 in 2001 IIRC), which was very good, just not as good as Kwan.
     
  30. hertmirsh

    hertmirsh Member

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    Her 2000 worlds long was her worst since Trophee Bompard early in the season. That is choking. Her 2001 worlds was a sloppy skate, and she would have won easily with her Russian Nationals performance. Performing much worse at worlds than your own Nationals is choking, which is why some say Kwan choked at the 98 Games even though she skated clean, unlike Irina at the 2001 worlds.

    Yu Na certainly wouldnt be worried about facing the Irina of the 2000 or 2001 worlds. None of her major titles would have been threatened in the least by those skates, and she would have won the 2014 Olympic gold had Sotnikova done Irina's performances from those worlds rather than her own.