Better career- Kwan or Kim

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by VolosozharGOAT, Mar 24, 2014.

Better career- Kim or Kwan

  1. Kim

    180 vote(s)
    55.6%
  2. Kwan

    144 vote(s)
    44.4%
  1. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Kwan's SP in 98 was such a masterpiece that I don't think anyone could beat her if she skated it cleanly on the strength of the second mark. On the other hand, though, I agree with you that Bobek was better at most of the required elements. My scores for the top 3 American women if they were all clean in the short program would be something like this Kwan - 5.7, 6.0 Bobek 5.8, 5.8 Lipinski 5.8, 5.6 That Anastasia program really sucked :lol: It's funny because Stephen Flaherty is my favorite Broadway composer of the modern era, but the musical selections for that short were a misfire. A piece set only to Once Upon a December could have been stunning.
     
  2. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Sadly, we'll never know how the judges would have judged a clean Bobek in Nagano.

    Although, the overall quality of Kwan's skating I believe at that point was just better than Bobek's and her program construction was more difficult. Regarding spins, Bobek seemed to be in more control of her spins than at Nationals, but Kwan spun better in Nagano as well. Flying spins are pretty equal. Layback goes to Bobek for the back bend though she didn't do the arm movements to the music like she did at Nationals, and the combo spin is pretty neutral as well though I still think Kwan had a better back catch-foot position. Also, jump quality issues that I stated above still apply with or without Kwan doing the Flip. I remember Kwan's footwork preceding the triple toe to be more difficult than Bobek's and her run-out on that toe was as good as a jump run-out gets.

    Regarding the overall level of ladies, Sochi was amazing. The Russian powerhouses are amazing with their abilities to do 3/3s, and the fact that Gracie Gold with her 3/3 still ranks 4-5 shows how strong the field has gotten. However, going into Sochi, people were complaining about "1980s" level of jumps that were winning World titles and medals. So I think like most other eras, there's always the Kims and Asadas that set the standard and the rest of the ladies are trying to play catch-up. This is the first time I feel like we can have a top 5 where all the ladies are capable of doing 3/3s, but consistency has suffered a bit when skaters age overall (not for Kim because she's just that good). Keep in mind, though, that the current Olympic bronze medalist didn't do a 3/3 in the LP (she beat other skaters who did) and repeated the Salchow and Toe Loop. Yet, people are still arguing she should have won gold on this forum. Not to mention Kostner, without a 3/3, had a bigger base value in jumps than Kim did who had a 3 Lutz/ 3 Toe (if I remember correctly).
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
  3. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

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    Yes those would have been the fair marks and what I would have given too. I am pretty sure Bobek would have received middling technical marks in the range of Butyrskaya even had she gone clean (5.4s and 5.5s) and either been placed 3rd or 4th depending on the presentation mark. That she would have been about .3 behind Kwan in required elements scores when Kwan wasnt as strong as Nationals and generally doesnt do most of the elements better makes no sense, and shows the point about judges not assessing all the elements properly in 6.0s days.

    A couple judges also gave Lu Chen who had almost all horrible elements 5.6s for required elements in the short at Nagano too which show again the judges were clueless how to score most elements those days.
     
  4. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with all that.
     
  5. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

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    Well Kristi had a pretty consistent triple lutz-triple toe which was harder than Kwan or almost any of her competitors were even trying. Irina did a couple harder combinations than that, but there was none she was attempting as regularly or landing as often. Ito and Harding and their triple axels, and I can understand why they didnt think they even thought to bother with hard 3-3s when you are a women already doing a triple axel and all other triples only a few years after the triple loop was the big jump. I am sure Ito and Harding were capable of much more than a 3 toe-3 toe if they thought it was important. Bonaly landing about 3 quad toes that should have been ratified and already doing the 7 triple/2 lutz programs you speak of, but doing lots of difficult 3-3s as well. As for rotation compared to Hughes, Suguri, or even at times Lipinski, Bonaly suddenly doesnt look so bad in that area either.

    Yes it was a small pool of skaters but I think that was the point being made. The Baiul/Kwan/Slutskaya era skaters did not have technical leaders that really continued the technical progression that had been happening, and it took until Asada, Kim, Ando, and somewhat Arakawa to get it back on track again. Atleast they never revereted back to the 80s though, which is what the Lysacek era did.
     
  6. OwenEvans

    OwenEvans Member

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    I always think of Kween as a 6.0 skater and Queen as a an IJS skater, so it's apples and oranges IMO. Both had brilliant careers. However, if Michelle had an OGM in her resume, I think her competitive record would take precedence over everyone.

    I'm really intrigued with statement in bold above. (Please don't think I am being negative or dismissive of your thoughts, TIL!) I can't see much of a Kwan influence in current skaters at all. There were moments in Asada's Sochi FS when she displayed Kwan-like fluidity, but IJS doesn't really require the "beauty" of Kwan's style. I think Sasha (who is an IJS skater through and through and could you imagine her now, having grown up under IJS with coaching skewed to the system like the Russian babies!) has had much more of an influence. Nagasu is Cohen II, IMO, and the young Russians, all of them, remind me of Sasha much more than Michelle.
     
  7. hertmirsh

    hertmirsh Member

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    What if Kim had a 2nd OGM though. In that case I would still pick Kim's career over Kwan's even with an OGM. I find it easier to imagine Kim with 2 than Kwan with 1 considering Kim was blindly robbed of winning a 2nd like probably no skater was ever robbed of winning an OGM before, and considering Kim skated well enough to win 2 while Kwan only arguably skated well enough to win 1.

    I agree more people follow Sasha than any other skater though which I find odd. Why would so many follow a second tier skater who couldnt win any major titles like Sasha rather than follow the style of one of the many greats to choose from. If it has to be an IJS type skater why not Irina and Shizuka who actually dominated and won major titles with IJS suited skating rather than Sasha who couldnt. It is Sasha who seems the most followed by todays skaters though, you are right, but I have no idea why.
     
  8. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    This.This.This. I will always be grateful to Mao and Yuna for getting the jump difficulty back on track and for not decreasing the difficulty in their programs after they became world champions. That gets so much respect from me, and because they continued to set a high bar, others eventually followed.
     
  9. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    I think talking about artistic influence is a bit problematic because it's such a subjective topic to begin with and it often involves intangible factors.

    With that said, I have to repeat that I find talk of Cohen's "influence" to be exaggerated. Her similarity with the skaters mentioned basically begins and ends with the fact that they're all as flexible as gumby. But is flexibility (and by extension, bendy spins) a Sasha innovation and all those skaters were simply following her lead? Or was it just coincidental that COP emphasized maximizing spin levels (a Sasha specialty) and a new generation of skaters suddenly all did Biellmans and I-spins, not necessarily trying to emulate Sasha specifically. Throughout her career Sasha was often given credit for apparently innovating or re-popularizing certain moves (like the Charlotte), but a lot of those claims were exaggerated imo.

    Nagasu lists Kwan as an idol, not Cohen. In fact, the list of current skaters who mention Kwan as an idol is much lengthier than those who list Cohen. But Kwan's trademarks weren't something easily quantifiable, they were consistency and expressiveness. These are a lot harder to imitate because they involve intangible factors, as opposed to something more straightforward like improving your flexibility.
    I think of the current skaters, Akiko Suzuki is probably the most similar to Kwan in terms of the emotionality of her skating. And although Yuna Kim is a much more explosive and powerful skater than Kwan, you can definitely see choreographic and stylistic nods to Kwan in some of Yuna's programs (Scheherazade, The Lark Ascending). Actually, during Yuna's early years, especially when she was competing as a junior under 6.0, she directly lifted some of Kwan's distinctive trademark moves like the hands running down the back during the layback. You could also see Kwan influence in Joannie Rochette, who also idolized her.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
  10. danibellerika

    danibellerika New Member

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    I voted Kim due to the massive celebrity she's created for herself in her country. My friend who moved there a few years back said they were playing Kim's programs back to back for the Olympics. She is a true symbol of national pride and while Kwan was a household name in the US I don't think she was ever at that level. That said, I'd rather watch Kwan skate.

    Probably because she wasn't second tier and created a beautiful vision on the ice. You don't win world and olympic short programs if the judges don't want to give you the goods. If Sasha stayed on her feet she would have won a lot more. That she was still able to place on the podium with her mistakes says quite a bit about what judges thought about the rest of her skating. What moves would skaters want to emulate from Irina and Shiz aside from jumps?
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
  11. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Not so. I just Googled Mirai Nagasu's idol and the first result was this:

    Michele Kwan and Sasha Cohen were my idols. I tried to copy Sasha's spirals and Michele's spiral and their flexibility, their jumps and the way they carried their presence on the ice
    http://i.nbcolympics.com/athletes/athlete=2275/qa/index.html

    I have spent way too much time in ice rinks than I'd have cared to. I have never, ever seen a skater explode onto the scene like Cohen did at 2000 US Nationals. She was all the young skaters and their mothers could talk about the following Monday after the ladies free skate. Her influence was felt very quickly at the club level after that big exposure. She was viewed as striking, unique, beautiful and exciting by the young skaters. They viewed her in awe like she was a real life Disney princess. I never cared for Sasha as a person or a skater, but her influence on young American female skaters was quite profound at the time.
     
  12. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    I stand corrected about Nagasu. But if we were to compile a list of current skaters' idols I assure you Kwan would come out on top by far compared to Cohen.
    And regarding the personal anecdote about young skaters being in awe of her, who is to say Kwan didn't inspire the same reaction? The crowd reaction at Nationals Kwan always got even before skating speaks for itself. As does the Michelle Kwan trophy which Sasha was never able to win until Kwan was named ineligible.

    It is hard to measure Kwan's influence vs Cohen's simply because her Kwan's trademarks were intangible factors that were harder to imitate.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
  13. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

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    Well one would want to emulate Shizuka's basic skating. Her edge quality, her flow, glide, run of blade. Certainly not something you would say about Sasha. Also while Sasha overall had the better spirals, Shizuka's Y spiral was very unique and moreso than any of Sasha's which was just a carry on of the traditional "kick your free leg as high in the air as possible and hold it there" which Kerrigan, Bobek, and Kwan had already started, but without something truly unique like Kwan's change of edge spiral.

    Why did Sasha win those short programs. Well:

    2004 worlds- Kwan's time deduction
    2006 Olympic- skated dead last, given that she won the short by only 0.03 over Irina and less than a point over Shizuka, would have probably been 2nd or maybe even 3rd otherwise.
    2006 worlds- did you see the field
     
  14. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Why is everything a contest with some Kwan fans? Why are they so threatened when other people feel someone else was beloved and admired? I repeat, Why is everything a contest?
     
  15. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    Wow, I was completely respectful in my responses. My initial post (that you replied to) was specifically replying to another poster who was pitting Cohen's influence against Kwan's. So I responded politely in kind. But if you're looking for Kwan fans to spite, then you'll see what you want to see. You're the same user who accused Bardtoob of being hateful while making a personal attack against them at the same time so...
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
  16. danibellerika

    danibellerika New Member

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    She won it because she got the highest score. You can make 50,000 excuses for why someone won something. This is figure skating after all :rolleyes:. My point is that she was often in the hunt to win it and it's not like she never beat Shizuka or Irina or Kwan before. Shizuka and Irina weren't the only ones with good basics. You develop those based on your own body and style. I don't really look at someone and go "oh, they skate like Arakawa" just because they have good basics.
     
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  17. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    This is a poll, which is essentially a contest, and you must be threatened because you personally attacked me for engaging your conclusions about why skating is the way it is.

    You have gone off the narcissistic deep end ... to the ignore list with you.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
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  18. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    I didn't use the word hateful. :rolleyes: Much of your response had little to do with the poll question at hand. What does the Michelle Kwan trophy have to do with Sasha Cohen's influence over club skaters? Nothing. It seemed like a typical response some Kwan fans do when they're losing an argument i.e. they change the subject or start reciting lists.
     
  19. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand what the second part of that sentence is supposed to say. :eek:
     
  20. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    :lol: You really don't want anybody to play with you ;)
     
  21. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    You're really picking at individual words? The gist was the same. You called them angry, unhappy in life and insecure at the same time that you were condemning their aggressive posting style.

    You didn't seem to have a problem with the person who I was responding to, who actually brought up that topic to begin with. Oh no, a poll/topic that has been repeated to death in the Trash Can actually DARED to go off on a tangent, someone grab my smelling salts before I faint!
    You need to learn about a certain thing called "context". That other poster claimed Kwan's influence was minimal compared to Cohen's. I claimed otherwise. Then you came in with "proof" from your personal anecdotes of hanging around ice rinks. That you stepped into that discussion with proof for Cohen's case implies that you were asserting the same theory: that Cohen's influence outweighs Kwan's. All I did was reply respectfully and you got butthurt and once again made it personal.

    Even if I did deviate from the original topic, at least I'm replying to points made in specific posts. You're the one bringing up unrelated personal beef involving your observations of Kwanbot behavior.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
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  22. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    I never said my anecdotes about Cohen were proof. You're the one implying I said that. I never did. What I did was offer a personal observation and that's all. Where I did offer proof was that Mirai looks up to Cohen too, a link which found me about 20 seconds to find through a basic search on Google. Once your bold declaration was shot down, you reverted to listing stuff that had nothing to do with the conversation at hand, and I called you on it.
     
  23. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    Are you kidding me right now? So you just threw those personal observations out there for no reason other than to take up space? We're on a forum, god forbid I actually take your posts to have some meaning and intent.

    Actually, once my "bold declaration was shot down", I immediately admitted to being wrong without getting butthurt, unlike your prickly self. How in the world are my observations about Kwan's reception at Nationals or her winning the USFSA yearly popularity award any less valid than your personal observations at ice rinks? At least my observations are based on real awards, polls and tangible proof that we can see from videos of the crowds - whereas your observations belong to you and you alone. My mentions of the MK trophy and audience reception are an appeal to popularity, which is in fact not much different from your mention of all the young female skaters who were apparently so in "awe" at Sasha Cohen following 2000 nationals.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
  24. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Good God, woman. You're insistent on remaining angry no matter how I speak to you.

    Your second and third sentences are simply ridiculous. So whenever anyone shares something they experienced, you always insist that that person was presenting undeniable proof? You know the intent behind everyone's words now? No one can share any personal experiences anymore without being labeled as someone presenting proof? Is that what you're saying? Do you realize how ridiculous you sound?

    I'm not addressing the Kwan Trophy anymore because you don't get it. It still has nothing to do with the topic at the time but whatever keep insisting.
     
  25. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    If you are sharing an experience in order to support a point during a discussion, you can't backtrack and claim that you didn't intend it as "proof" but "only an observation". Please. You are probably now just arguing semantics about my use of the word "proof"

    Half of the debates we have on here about skaters are based on personal observations anyway (if they're not based on stats).
     
  26. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    No, I'm not. I'm in disbelief that you can be so two dimensional regarding elements of conversations. I did see a huge influence by Cohen at the club level but I'm not presenting that as proof, nor would I accept a personal observation as proof by anyone else. I have no idea how you can't grasp that not everyone sees conversations in black and white like you do. :confused:
     
  27. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    If you were just offering an innocent observation that wasn't meant as proof, then why did you jump all over my rebuttal that Kwan could have inspired the same reaction from young skaters, as based on her obvious popularity (cue my namedropping her MK trophy wins and nationals reception)? Observations of her popularity are no less valid than observations of young skaters at rinks..
     
  28. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Because we were talking about influence and not popularity. It was out of place and seemed like an attempt to change the conversation into a contest, which is something the more "interesting" Kwan fans have a knack for doing when they've run out of ideas.
     
  29. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    But Sasha's influence wouldn't have been measured by buzz immediately following her 2000 nationals performance which is what you're describing. That buzz would have been along the same lines as popularity and hype. Influence would be measured much later
     
  30. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough. I should have added that I saw girls emulating Sasha and her flashy moves at the local clubs in my area quite quickly after nationals. And don't get me started on the crowded dance rooms as so many girls worked overtime on their flexibility. It's what I was thinking of when I wrote that post but I see I didn't express that part. The last time I saw so many young skaters trying to emulate a skater was around 93/94 when Oksana was at the height of her popularity and so many girls were trying to learn the doughnut spin in practice sessions or dancing on their toe picks. :lol: