Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by frillit, Jul 14, 2013.
I thought you liked Slutskaya, Your Honor.
I'm more curious about those who chose the "other" option. Which skaters would you/those assert as the best of this era?
Well considering there are a small number of fans who consider Cohen a better skater than Slutskaya, and a small number who consider her a better skater than Kwan, there are probably an even smaller number who consider her better than both. I am pretty sure the few other votes are for Cohen, even if most probably consider Lipinski and Arakawa and even Chen greater (and better overall) skaters than Cohen. Cohen tends to have the widest range of opinions amongst fans since she is very special, very flawed, and never became a real champion in the sport all at once.
She could have been a real USA champion if Kwan hadn't played it that she was actually in it for the '06 season. It diminished Sasha's only victory because Kwan's PR team projected that Kwan could have beaten Sasha if only she had a few more weeks, which we eventually learned was not true. I think Sasha-- like the rest of us-- would have preferred Michele was healthy enough to skate in '06. It would have made Sasha's likely victory look more legitimate. I do think that if Kwan had been healthy, she might have won, but I would still bet on Sasha.
This isn't about what people want to see or personal preference. What I said are displays of skating skills and quality eecution which are relevant since we are discussing who is the better skater, not who people want to see.
Was it that girl that was Jill Trenary minus the Aquanet and triple jumps? Dorothy Hamill - crying + squealing.
i don't remember things being so dire. I actually predicted that what happened at 06 worlds would happen at 06 nats. Imagine my surprise to find my spidery sense off by two comps.
Anyone who would put down Dorothy Hamill - especially because she didn't have triple jumps during an era when NO ONE had triple jumps - just shows if nothing worse, that the person knows very little skating history. And besides, Dorothy doesn't deserve anyone's scorn. She is an Olympic champion who has always been a great representative for skating & she had always handled herself with poise & grace.
Yeah, Michelle put herself through all that hell just so she could rain on Sasha's parade. Oh yes, and also so she could keep Emily from her rightful place at the opening ceremony.
Dorothy is one of my favorite skaters ever but she did receive some criticsm even at the time she was dominating since she wasnt attempting triples at a time many of the other top skaters already were. Christine Errath and Diane DeLeeuw her two biggest rivals both were doing triples, as were young Anett Poetzsch and Linda Fratianne. The criticsm reached its height at U.S Nationals when she turned in for her standards a very blah performance and people saw young firecracker Linda skated amazingly with 2 huge triples to open her program and still handily lose to Dorothy. Come Olympics though when Dorothy was at her very best the quality of everything- jumps, spins, spirals, stroking, were so superior to all the other leading skaters that nobody cared about the lack of a triple many of the others were already doing anymore.
It wasnt like triples were foreign at that point though. It wasnt the Peggy Fleming era. Triples were already somewhat prominent by then. Dorothy probably could have easily done them but knew she didnt need them to win if she skated well.
Or you totally missed the references ...
Yes, you're right. However, I was simply responding to a post above my own. I can understand why that's frustrating for you when you've asked something different, but thread drift happens all the time. Virtually every time a new thread is started, it has changed subject matter by the end.
sure keep irina,
michelle had more pressure.
irina wasn't pleasing for me . she was jerky. didnt finish her jumps by that i mean no flow. always stop.
didn't center her spins .
I voted for Kwan by a slight margin. This poll shows why I voted for Slutskaya or Kwan in the weakest competition poll. Any other the 15 or so era of ladies skating in history it would be a debate between 4, 5, or 6 skaters as the best of that era. Even if there was a consensus choice there would be more than 2 people being considered. Yet here with 200 or more people voting only 5 think someone other than those 2 was the best of that era. The Slutskaya and Kwan era was probably the longest ever too, it was like 10 years long if we consider 96-06 and still there is no other worthy people that come near the caliber of skater of either in such a long time frame.
It seems that those 2 are considered above 5 levels better a skater than anyone else in their era, and it is like there was only 2 skaters who existed in that era. Shows lack of depth and that is was an era lacking in many good skaters.
I am surprised that they're so evenly voted, though I presume there are people who are sick of Kwan this and Kwan that so they're voting for her opponent haha.
Seriously though, Kwan is the definition of a complete ladies skater and she was on top of her game for a very long time. She is well loved, and for good reason. Slutskaya, on the other hand, had more natural jumps but left a sloppy impression in my eyes. She had some amazing performances (2005 worlds) but as a whole isn't quite the same level as Kwan to me. Jumps aside, Slutskaya loses in my eyes due to her poorer posture and lines, and sometimes very questionable musical interpretation abilities (though programs like her 2002 SP come to mind where she really had a whole package). We unfortunately didn't see that enough from her.
Or maybe some people think Kwan and Slutskaya were just that good. I'd argue that many of the skaters under them could have been competitive in prior eras. If we don't consider compulsories I mean.
I voted for Kwan because she was one of the prettiest skaters of any era.
Slutskaya had better jump combinations, jumps, spins, footwork, speed, and stroking power. So I voted for her as the best skater of that era with Kwan a close second. Irina also had a slightly greater career overall.
I can understand why many will want to vote for Irina simply so that Michelle won't win or run away with another poll, but this one is a no-brainer. Michelle is the best skater of the two, and has the best results of the two.
I'd say that things like "outspinning" and "outjumping" are more important in figure skating than who has the more beautiful ina bauer or split jump, though.
The closest example I can think of are their respective free programs from Worlds in 2001.
With Irina, all I saw were the jumps. With Michelle, I was caught up in the story she was presenting and didn't realise until the last triple lutz just how much content she'd packed into the performance.
If artistry, entertainment value, or the quality of the elements are not important, then Slutskaya was perhaps the very best of the era with Yoshie Onda a close second.
It's not even about who has the more beautiful of those field moves. It's the fact that she never showcased those elements that suggested a lack of total control and coordination between body and blade.
I didn't know that crossovers and easy steps sequences now count as technical content
Which elements did she never showcase? Ina bauers, spread eagles, split jumps? She did all of those in various programs, although hers were not admittedly as pretty as Kwan which had also do with Irina's different body type and more athletic style.
With the same argumentation, I could also ask why Kwan never did a tano double axel or other tano jumps? Oh wait, that's because she did not have the same jumping ability, which singles figure skating is an important part of, and since Irina was clearly better here, it means that Irina must be the better skater between these two
If you thought Kwan's routines were empty during this era, then what was Irina's routines? Negative balance? Anyway, Irina didn't really start to have content in-between her routines until COP but then her routines became devoid of any real musical interpretation or coherent choreography. Besides, having "prettier" skating elements doesn't mean it's only prettier but that a skater took time and energy to execute them properly, which is more difficult than doing it as a throw-away move.
Anyway, Irina had bigger jumps but she didn't always execute them the best way. Kwan's jumps weren't the biggest, but at Worlds, she was able to execute them with excellent flow and position out of the jumps. As for the spinning. Irina was a faster spinner and her layback had a better position. However, other than the Biellman, I found Kwan's to be better centered with more variety of position. People knocked Kwan for not being able to do a Double Biellman the way Irina could, but then nobody asked if Irina could do a double Y-spin the way Kwan did. Could Irina really do a proper arabesque position with a high leg position without the Biellman?
I'm not even sure that Irina Slutskaya had better jumps than Michelle Kwan ! Irina jumps higher than Michelle, but in term of jumping technique, Michelle's Flip, Salchow and Toe are, IMO, better than Irina's.
The Lutz is equal, both were on flat and Irina had a long, long, long entrance.
Axel and Loop are clearly better by Irina.
If Michelle had better technique on the flip, then I wonder why Slutskaya had so much more spring and height on this jump. Irina also had a slightly truer take-off edge than Kwan on the lutz and more difficult footwork into the flip. Kwan's entrance into the lutz was also not really shorter than Irina's, she just disguised it better.
^Agreed. I don't know why some would even attempt to dispute the fact that Slutskaya was the better jumper. Kwan did many things better. Is it that hard to recognize that others did SOME things better than her? I also noticed that past 2000, Kwan's jumps really got worse in height and spring.
I think Kwans jumps started to suffer after the 03 season, but she was able to hold on due to her technique. Slutskaya did have more spring and power on her flip, Kwan had nicer positions, as well as sometimes better flow out of her jumps especially from 97-01.
I agree. However, Kwan's jumps got bigger than ever during her Arutunian days even if her 3/3 capabilities seemed gone by then.
Yeah, she really made an effort to make her jumps bigger in 2003 which was nice to see. Unfortunately, it didn't last very long.
Of the two, definitely Michelle. Although there were so many other skaters of the era I loved as well - Laetitia Hubert, Tanja Szewczenko, Annie Bellemare, Nicole Bobek, Vanessa Gusmeroli, Maria Butyrskaya, Olga Markova..
I like Michelle but many of her fans are a little crazy. I am sure she has some good fans too, but I havent encountered many of them yet. I am not here long enough to be familiar with FSU polls but I get the impression from reading comments in this thread Kwan fans would die if she ever lost a poll. Can someone more experienced tell me does Kwan typically win all FSU polls.
I remember joining the Michelle Kwan fan forum page once just to check it out and after an hour I never went back there. One of the nuttiest and most agressive fan bases in any sport probably.
Michelle has a HUGE fan base among the members of this site.
Yeah, Michelle Kwan wins MOST polls.
Michelle Kwan - for sure.
Personally I enjoyed Slutskaya more because I got to see her grow from season to season, but overall Kwan was for most of her career a complete skater.
Better jumps = Irina
Better spins = Irina
More difficult footwork = Irina
Better carriage = Michelle (Slutskaya was known for pumping her back, which made her skating look more labored than Kwan's)
Better choreography = Michelle
Better spirals = Michelle
Better musical interpretation = Michelle
Better competitive mindset = Michelle (she won the most head-to-heads at the biggest events)
Better speed = Irina
Skating skills = tie
Better transitions = Michelle (Slutskaya often telegraphed her jumps while Kwan disguised them a little better)
Michelle was not bad at jumping, spinning, or footwork, but Irina often did attempt more difficulty in these areas (the Biellmann on both feet; the footwork sequence all on one foot) and Slutskaya had better amplitude on her jumps and attempted more difficult triple+triples (3Lutz+3loop, 3Salchow+3loop) and did the 'tano 2Axel. Michelle had much more memorable programs though, IMO, and I think she was a more complete skater.
Overall, I preferred Michelle, but I liked Irina too. I actually liked their fellow countrywomen better though if I am being totally honest. If only Nicole Bobek and Maria Butyrskaya could have remained healthy, been mentally stronger, and delivered their full potential every time on the ice, we wouldn't even be having this Michelle/Irina debate.
You are right on Nicole. Sadly the judges saw Maria even in her prime as a third tier skater who could only win a bronze medal if she skated lights out and everyone else had a disaester (and even then sometimes not).
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