Best skater of each quad from 95-98

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by fracturedleg, Mar 25, 2014.

  1. crisp

    crisp New Member

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    For me, it is clear. Chan.
    Hanyu's big achievements(OG, the first WC win, the first GPF win) have come all since Dec. 2013.
    At the point of Nov. 2013(Both competed in 13TEB), these two were in different classes, career-wise and skating-wise.
    And both OG and 13GPF gold could have been Chan's titles, if 13GPF had not held in Japan. (Hanyu's PCS risen to the Chan level at 13GPF lasted and influenced Sochi results.)
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2014
  2. crisp

    crisp New Member

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    (as for Kwan-Tara-Irina..)
    What is obvious is that best skater of the 95-02 combined quads is Kwan. :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2014
  3. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    Nor does her skating. She was a successful jumper because she was small and shapeless and could rotate quickly in the air. Her jumps were actually pretty tiny, she flutzed badly, the loops on the back of combinations were often nearly 180 degrees pre-rotated, and her 2 axel was whipped and ugly. The rest of her skating was good but not great.
     
  4. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Well she was the most dominant skater in those quads because no one else was more dominant in those quads. She didn't dominate every season but did overall dominate the quad. She won more world titles in those quads than anyone else. Two each to be exact. And in the years she lost, she lost to a different skater and still came 2nd (or 4th in 1995). So how could anyone have been more dominant?

    Kwan had it all over Lipinski in 95 and 96 and was a close second in 1997 and 1998 (if that - I would say they were equally dominant since they exchanged wins). In fact, Kwan beat Lipinski more than the other way round in 1998 season and both times with bigger margins (both 9-0 splits I believe, whereas she lost on a 3-6 split).

    Kwan didn't compete against Slutskaya in 1999 (unless you count the Goodwill Games) but did win silver at Worlds. Kwan and Slutskaya went 1-1 and 1-1 (not counting Skate Canada) in 2000 and 2001 seasons with Kwan winning the bigger prize, both times. Again, co-dominant but with Kwan slightly ahead. I would say Kwan was more dominant in those 3 seasons over Slutskaya. 2002 goes to Slutskaya despite that bogus GPF win and Kwan actually winning the Olympic short.

    argh - giselle beat me to it, but I typed a long post so I am going to keep it anyways. :D
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2014
  5. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    If just the 1995-96 and 1997-98 periods are considered (because no one was dominant in 1994-95), Michelle in major competitions won gold 13 times and silver 4 times. She never finished lower than second. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Kwan

    I would say that's pretty dominant.
     
  6. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    Irina didn't fail to beat Michelle at 1999 Worlds; she wasn't a member of the Russian team at the European or World championships that season. In the 1999 season, Slutskaya was out of shape and out of motivation and considered quitting skating. It took an all time career low of losing every event she entered in the 1999 season to inspire her to regroup and become an even better skater and launch a comeback where she would dominate every event up to the World Championships and the Olympics in the next many seasons.
     
  7. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    Slutskaya would probably have won the 99 world silver behind Butyrskaya had she been sent. The Russian federation were stupid to send a perennial loser like Voltchkova over a real champion like Slutskaya. Since the judges love sweeps they might have given Soldatova the bronze over Kwan and made a Russian sweep if slutskaya was there.

    Anyway I agree with giving the edge to Slutskaya over kwan in 99-2002 for sure. To make all the seasons out as equal first of all is a huge error since everyone knows the 2001-2002 season is by FAR the most important one. You have the Olympics, the biggest even by far of every quadrennial, plus a worlds just like every other year, and in this case you had a Goodwill Games too. So Slutskaya pawning Michelle to death this year (5-0 record, winning or placing above her on all the big podiums), along with dominating the 2000 and 2001 seasons except for her worlds free skate defeat to Michelle's, is more than enough to give her skate of the decade. In Olympic and worlds it is pretty much even between the two with Kwan with 2 worlds, 2 silver, and olympic bronze, vs Irina 1 worlds, 2 silvers, and olympic silver, and since Irina trumps Kwan easily everywhere else- grand prix wins, grand prix medals, Goodwill Games title, grand prix final titles 3 to 0, head to head, Irina is the easy winner.


    Tara vs Michelle is a harder one, but at the height of their rivalry Tara won almost all her important meetings with Michelle in the 96-97 and 97-98 meetings. Out of the 5 biggest events held- 2 grand prix finals, 2 worlds, 1 olympics, Tara won 4 of 5, and the only one Michelle won Tara wasnt in. In their 5 biggest meetings- 2 U.S Nationals, 1 grand prix final, 1 worlds, 1 olympics, Tara again won 4 of 5. Even looking at the whole quad I would take Tara's Olympic gold, 1 world title, 2 grand prix final titles over Kwan's Olympic silver, 2 world titles, 1 grand prix final title. Bashing Tara for not beating Michelle Kwan as a 12 year old is stupid. Who was Michelle Kwan beating at that age, she couldnt even beat Nicole Bobek in big events at nearly 15. So while less obvious than Irina vs Michelle the proceding quad which is clearly Irina, I would probably pick Tara for this one.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2014
  8. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    As for who was best the 97-98 season I would say Tara since she won the years biggest and 3rd biggest events- Olympics and grand prix final, vs Kwan who only won the years 2nd, 4th, and 5th- Worlds, Nationals, goodwill games. Tara was also more likely to beat Kwan's subpar winning performance at worlds than Michelle was to beat Tara's Nagano like outstanding winning performance at the grand prix final, but alas we will never know. Anyway that would make Tara the best 2 seasons and Kwan only 1 (95-96).
     
  9. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

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    91-94- Petrenko, Miskutienok & Dmitriev, Usova & Zhulin (since they are the real champions of 91 worlds, 93 worlds, 94 olympics, and 94 worlds), Yamaguchi
    95-98- Kovarikova & Novotny (world title and 2 world pros, I think beating G&G to win 1 of the 2), Kyrlova & Ovsiannikov (I never forgive G&P for stealing U&Z's 94 gold, hate them forever), Kwan (sorry Tara is a shitty worthless skater no matter how many titles she won, she is garbage and an ugly gap toothed troll and loser skater like giselle23 and others have said), Stojko

    99-2002- Slutskaya, Yagudin, Anissina & Peizerat, Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze
    2003-2006- boring quad, no picks, well Slutskaya for women, the rest dont care
    2007-2010- another boring quad, no picks
    2011-2014- Hanyu, Volosozhar & Trankov, Kim, Davis & White
     
  10. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

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    To conclude Cohen as best for 2003-2006 when she didnt win a single world or olympic event, and had no chance to ever beat a clean Slutskaya, clean Arakawa, or maybe even a clean Kwan is stupid.
     
  11. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    But the numbers over the quad don't lie. Michelle won 13 gold medals from 1995-96-1997-98 and 4 silver medals. She never finished lower than second. So even if Tara could be said to dominate the 97-98 season, Michelle was dominant over the quad. And if Tara was likely to have beaten Michelle at 98 Worlds (a purely speculative assumption, of course), an uninjured Michelle was just as likely to have beaten her at the Grand Prix final, at which she didn't compete.
     
  12. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    All golds are not equal though, so the 13 golds thing in itself doesnt mean much. Are you saying a gold at say Trophee de France is the same as the Olympic gold. All I know is I had to choose between Olympic gold, 1 world title, 2 grand prix final titles vs Olympic silver, 2 world titles, 1 grand prix final title I would probably pick the former. If I knew I would achieve the former while setting all kinds of youngest ever records which will probably last 100 years or more, and by winning almost every important meeting with my biggest rival at the height of our rivalry in doing so, I would take it in a heartbeat. Forgive me if I dont put the same stock in Kwan winning worlds with a barely 13 year old Tara coming 13th, as Tara winning all these events relegating the previous dominant Michelle to a silver medal time and time again. If you disagree fine, that is cool, but I can see why many pick Tara as tops of that quad. I do also, despite that I couldnt even stand Tara's skating, and her rise to the top annoyed me as a Maria fan as it was hard to see little Tara being pushed above more mature women like Michelle, Lu, Maria, but that is reality.

    Tara skated better in winning the grand prix final than Kwan did at worlds btw.
     
  13. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    And?
     
  14. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    The 13 gold medals include 2 world championships, 2 National Championships and 1 Grand Prix final/Championship series. Michelle also beat Tara twice in the GP series that year so she would have been the favorite to win the final. In any event, it does not follow that the way Tara skated at the GPF was the way she would have skated at Worlds. But even if Tara wins the 97-98 year the quad win should go to Michelle.


     
  15. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I didn't conclude. What's more stupid is failing to read people's posts properly before making a point.
     
  16. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I dont know why anyone would pick Navka & Kostomarov as best of any quad. Most accomplished maybe, but never the best dance team.
     
  17. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Who would have you put instead though? I greatly preferred Denkova/Stavisky and Delobel/Schoenfelder that quad and thought they were shafted all sorts of times that quad. However, Navka/Kostmorov were pretty undeniable at the 2006 Olympics, and did win both 2004 and 2005 Worlds handily (even if I would have given the 2004 World title to Denkova/Stavisky and placed them second in the FD to Delobel/Schoenfelder at 2005 Worlds…COP be damned).

    ETA:

    I have a question now that we're talking about skaters who dominated their quad. There's no question to me that Totimianina/Marinin win 2003-2006 thanks to Hongbo Zhao's injury putting them out of contention for the top spot from 2005 Worlds-on. However, I was rewatching their 2004 Worlds LP, and I forgot that they got all first place ordinals in the LP. Is 2004 Worlds the only time the eventual World champion would lose the LP by consensus post-figures? I know 2004 Worlds is an odd duck since the judges were giving out 6.0s like candy, but T/M didn't win one judge for their LP (they might have won a judge that ended up not being counted due to the weird post-2002 6.0 and pre-COP rules).
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2014
  18. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I actually dont dispute they probably deserve to be the most accomplished of the quad. The only title they won I probably wouldnt have given them is the 2004 worlds. However I still dont think they are the best. Their skating left no long standing impact, and Delobel & Schoenfelder and Denkova & Stayviski left far more memorable programs to the sport. He was also such a weak technical skater for an Olympic and World Champion, he was only a notch above Maurizio Margalio (in technical ability, Maurizio could never come anywhere near Roman in performing skill and beautiful lines though). She carried him to all those titles on her back basically.

    It is like I dont think Lysacek's titles were wrong. He deserved his 2009 world title and 2010 Olympic title. That would make him rightfully the most accomplished of the very uneven quad since Joubert who is the only other one who might have a case, didnt even get an Olympic medal. However I would still never say he was the best, so I dont see how N&K are any different other than their achievements are even more dominating and clear cut than his.
     
  19. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    :)
    1, Plushenko's brain did not cramp during his SP at 2000 worlds, he skated super clean, but lost to Yagudin by 1:8 judge's split. Yagudin made some mistakes during the LP, many people thought Plushenko would definitely have won had he skated clean. Well I sort of doubt it, judging by the fact that Yagudin still landed two quads, Plushenko never tried two quads in a program before that, and Yagudin got a bunch of 5.9s for presentation from the judges (7 IIRC),
    2, It's not because of unlucky that Plushenko got groin injury in 2002, it's because he's not as talented a jumper as Yagudin, as simple as that. He trained extremely hard on jumps, had Alexei Mishin focused on him for four years, and had the advantage of starting the quad training at a younger age. (When Stojko started to land quad constantly in competitions and got reward from the judges, lots of young skaters such as Kulik, Yagudin and Plushenko, all started quad training around the same time. Plushenko hence started at a younger age, that's an advantage. However Yagudin was the one who mastered the quad the quickest. He had the highest quad successful rate during 97-98 season and quickly stood out, all others could only hit one if they had a good day.) Plushenko's lucky that Yagudin left Mishin after 98 worlds and trained under Tarasova who's never a technical coach and did not focus on jumps. When Yagudin increased his jump content during 01-02 season, Plushenko just lost the advantage and had to go for a 4lutz in a hope to out jump Yagudin and hence the groin injury. And obviously Alexei Mishin wasn't so confident on Plushenko's talent either, if Plushenko could out jump Yagudin easily, simply there's no need for him to play the bad guy to attack Yagudin. Speaking of unlucky, I consider that someone with a born joint defect unlucky.
    3,if Kulik could win the title so handily, it's strange for him to withdraw, it's not like he had lots of world titles already.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2014
  20. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    At that GPF Yagudin was far from perfect while Plushenko only had a small extra turn on the 4-3-2.
    Again 2000-2001 GPF Yagudin wasn't perfect either while Plushenko did more difficult jump content, two quads, both in combinations, while Yagudin only landed one clean quad. It's meaningless to simply state who skated clean without analyzing the jump content. Like someone said already, Yagudin could still manage to win couple of first ordinals even with mistakes while Plushenko were flawless and with more difficult jump content.
     
  21. angelflies

    angelflies Active Member

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    If you are talking best skater rather than best results Bobek was best skater of 95-98, Kwan or Butyrskaya of 99-2002, Cohen of 2003-2006, Asada from 2007 until now. People like Kim and Slutskaya arent great skaters, just great competitors who take advantage of others failures to win medals. Same goes for people like Stojko, Plushenko, Volosozhar & Trankov, Totmianina & marinin, Witt, so on. There are ones like Kwan and Yagudin who are that rare combination of both a great skater and great competitor.
     
  22. annabrown

    annabrown Member

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    Pairs: 91-94 is Miskutienok & Dmitriev, 95-98 is Shishkova & Naumov, 99-2002 is Shen & Zhao, 2003-2006 is Shen & Zhao, 2007-2010 is Shen & Zhao, 2011-2014 is Volosozhar & Trankov only since Shen & Zhao didnt skate.

    Men: 91-94 is Petrenko, 95-98 is Eldredge, 99-2002 is Eldredge, 2003-2006 is Lambiel, 2007-2010 is Lysacek, 2011-2014 is Hanyu only since Lysacek's comeback didnt happen.

    Ladies: 91-94 is Yamaguchi, 95-98 is Lipinski, 99-2002 is Slutskaya, 2003-2006 is Slutskaya, 2007-2010 is Kim, 2011-2014 is Kim

    Dance: dont really care, boring event
     
  23. moviechicko_o

    moviechicko_o New Member

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    LOL, Lysacek for 2010-2014 is hilarious. Like really, his failed comeback is the only reason Hanyu is top.. and not the fact that he's the definition of mediocrity.
     
  24. fracturedleg

    fracturedleg Member

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    Yeah beating a totally clean Plushenko to win the Olympics without a quad, something skaters like Lambiel, Buttle, or Takahashi couldnt have come even close to doing in 2006 even going clean with quads, is the definition of mediocrity. Beating a clean Chan in the short program with the same jumps at the 2009 worlds, something probably no other skater can do, is the definition of mediocrity. Winning worlds, grand prix final, and Olympics all in a year of each other is mediocrity.

    You may not like Evan but dont be an idiot.
     
  25. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    The difference between Yagudin and Michelle Kwan is that Yagudin is also an extremely talented jumper, and has basically no weakness as a men's figure skater. Hence he's an Olympic champion and Kwan's not. I am not a Kwan fan, but judging by the fact that she was way out-jumped by Tara Lipinski in Nagano, but still won 3 judge's vote, obviously the judges think that she has something more. Had she done a little bit more difficult jump-combo, she would have won.
     
  26. fracturedleg

    fracturedleg Member

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    Or if she just skated like Nationals with more speed, style, and quality. She didnt even need a triple-triple but she needed to skate her best. She didnt.
     
  27. unicorn

    unicorn Member

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    or maybe she knew that she had no advantage on jumps, so she had to skate her best of the best to win, hence got lots of pressure that she simply couldn't skate her best. :lol:
     
  28. OliviaPug

    OliviaPug Well-Known Member

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    And she was coming off an injury and changed her jump layouts after coming back and couldn't do the one reliable 3/3 she had for the same reason. I think that would create more pressure for sure, but she still skated amazingly well. Seven triples is nothing to sneeze at. And she won the short.

    O-
     
    kwanette and (deleted member) like this.
  29. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Also, unlike Yagudin, Kwan didn't have her closest competitor fall in the SP and place 4th and then skate less than her best in the LP at the Olympics. A lot of the time, the difference between being an OGM and not is circumstances. Especially for someone like Kwan who obviously was very capable of winning the Olympics considering how many titles she won in her career over the same skaters (multiple times) who would later on be OGMs.
     
  30. fracturedleg

    fracturedleg Member

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    Fans of skaters who dont win the OGM often try to downplay it, but it can only be downplayed so much. It is still by far the biggest event in the sport. That includes worlds. One OGM and nothing to back it up does not make a legendary career, but an OGM with an otherwise great career elevates him it to another level. I can relate to that as I am a huge Savchenko & Szolkowy fan and their not winning the OGM kills me as much as it probably does a Kwan fan for them. However I also know the lack of the OGM will likely keep them behind even teams like Shen & Zhao and Volosozhar & Trankov in most fans minds, let alone the teams considered the very greatest ever in pairs. Had they just won one of those two OGMs they missed (2010 and 2014) it could be so different.

    I am also a huge fan of Kurt Browning, and his case is even worse, not even winning an Olympic medal. Atleast S&S and Kwan won 2, which is still a terrific fail. Browning's huge failures at the Olympics significantly takes away from his greatness. He is still a great, but not as great as he would otherwise have been.

    You just have to look at the threads with Lysacek involved and how many rate his career over people like Lambiel, Takahashi, Chan, yet without his OGM, even with just an Olympic silver, he would be a joke compared to those. Reality though is he has the OGM and that elevates his career greatly, even though he in no way has an impeccible record in other areas like say Yu Na Kim or Yagudin has.