Best skater of each quad from 95-98

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by fracturedleg, Mar 25, 2014.

  1. moviechicko_o

    moviechicko_o New Member

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    His hand definitely touched the ice on that quad. That is enough of an error when your competitor was spotless. And back in those super final days, it was just 2 skaters so the marks themselves were even more meaningless. And honestly, if Yagudin had been as flawless technically as Plushenko, his program would've deserved 6.0's on the second mark.
  2. apatinar

    apatinar New Member

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    how could Slutskaya make any list? Her truck driver style skating with knocked knees that had to constantly be covered up by long rags on just about every competitive dress she had hardly makes her the best of her quad..
  3. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    99-00: Plushenko won the GPF too
    01-02: Yagudin won Worlds too
  4. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Yagudin missed the 2000 GPF and Plushenko missed 2002 worlds so those don't count, weren't direct match-ups.
  5. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Oh, really i didn't read the whole text! THX!
  6. crisp

    crisp New Member

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    Agree.
    The post-Vancouver was the Chan age.

    The first half of the last quad : 1.Chan 2.Dai
    The second half of the last quad : 1.Chan 2.Hanyu

    Chan's historical 13TEB performances top all Hanyu's this season winning performances(13GPF,14Oly,14WC). And IMO, I feel that Chan was a little robbed of the titles at 13GPF & Sochi. So even for this 1314 season, I would say Chan ≥ Hanyu.
  7. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    Delusional. For 2013-2014, Olympic Gold + World gold + grand prix final gold >>>>>>> Olympic silver + bogus World gold (2013).

    Chan was also never robbed of anything in his life. How can the most held up skater in history be robbed of winning even more titles. His 2013 and 2012 world titles are among the most controversial in history, along with a few of his other dubious grand prix wins. I guess Chan fans get so used to the the cushy 5 fall margins he was given which ruined the fading credability sport they convince themselves he was somehow robbed even when he bombs the short program (GPF) or makes 5 jump errors over 2 programs (Olympics).
  8. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    Since ultimately it is about titles before opinions of skating to most. In terms of achievements Slutskaya probably did the most in 1999-2002, and since Shizuka is a 2 event wonder many are probably iffy on giving her the title for 2003-2006 so go with Slutskaya by default. Slutskaya was also the best of her era in every technical aspect of skating- jumps, spins (well Sasha had better spins at one point), footwork, speed, even if not the best in any artistic aspect.
  9. Xela M

    Xela M New Member

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    :lol: I agree with all of this. The 5 fall margins made me laugh out loud!

    The mens' Olympic event in Sochi was hilarious. Some never got off the ice.
  10. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

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    Results wise Irina was the best skater of both the 99-2002 and 2003-2006 quads. 99-2002 is between her and Kwan. Kwan has 1 more world title, but Irina has the higher Olympic medal so it is pretty much a tie there. Irina wish her 3 grand prix final wins to 0 for Kwan and general greater dominance of the overall grand prix and general circuit, and winning most head to head meetings with Kwan, is the tiebreaker. 2003-2006 only Shizuka could be put above her, but with so many terrible results outside her 2 big wins Shizuka is a poor choice for best of the quad, so it is Irina by default. Sasha cant be picked when she couldnt even win a single worlds, had she won the weak 2006 worlds it could have gone to her easily.
  11. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I don't really get how anybody would really win the 2003-2006 quad for ladies when nobody really dominated. Slutskaya only dominated one season and a half really until the Grand Prix Final 2005/2006 where she was declining a bit.

    Sasha dominated the GP series in the 2002-2003 season including the GPF but wound up losing to Kwan at Nationals, and then not medaling at all at Worlds. She even performed a clean performance in the QR at 2003 Worlds but placed third in her QR round to both Kwan and Sokolova. You can say Cohen dominated the GP series again in 2003-2004 except she ended up losing the GPF to Fumie Suguri and then the World title to Shizuka Arakawa.

    Shizuka is a one-hit wonder with only one winning long program to Turandot. Although, the 2006 version was more of a remix. She did end up winning Worlds and the Olympics, but her record otherwise is unremarkable (I think even Suguri has a better overall record that quad).

    Kwan won 2003 Worlds and Skate America that season after being called in at the last minute after Hughes dropped out, but she skipped the GP series in both 2003/2004 and 2004/2005. Her Worlds results were respectable in 2004 and 2005, but not close to being the dominate skater she was in prior to 2004. She ends up not even competing in the 2005/2006 season at all.

    Overall, even if we had to pick a "winner" I wouldn't say the person who one chooses is far-and-away the dominate skater and instead became the dominate skater by someone's idea of a tie breaker that's supported by some arbitrary reasoning.
  12. beyoncerocks

    beyoncerocks Member

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    Best skater of the 2003-2006 quad has to be Slutskaya or Cohen. Most accomplished of the quad has to be Slutskaya or Shizuka. Since Slutksaya is the only one who can possibly qualify for both she is probably the choice, although a shaky one at best.

    Cohen should have so easily been the best skater of that quad. Should have won the 2004 worlds, 2006 Olympics, and 2006 worlds, and more than 1 Nationals. Even winning 1 of those titles would have given it to her given her consistently strong results all quad which no other women had. The 2006 worlds was worst of all her failures, how on earth she blew that.
  13. beyoncerocks

    beyoncerocks Member

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    Ladies- 91-94 Yamaguchi, 95-98 Lipinski, 99-2002 Slutskaya (barely over Kwan), 2003-2006 Slutskaya, 2007-2010 Kim, 2011-2014 Kim or Asada
    Men- 91-94 Petrenko, 95-98 Stojko, 99-2002 Yagudin, 2003-2006 Plushenko, 2007-2010 nobody, 2011-2014 Hanyu
    Pairs- dont care
    Dance- 91-94 Klimova & Ponomarenko, 95-98 Gritschuk, 99-2002 Anissina, 2003-2006 Navka, 2007-2010 Virtue & Moir, 2011-2014 Davis & White

    It feels funny to give Slutskaya two skaters of quads and Kwan 0 when considering their whole careers Kwan is much greater.
  14. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I think it's like Kwan's skating itself. It looks way better when you take everything as a whole.
  15. beyoncerocks

    beyoncerocks Member

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    Wow that is a great summary. That is the problem with IJS, it doesnt even take that into account. It is nothing but the sum of the parts, even if the whole doesnt add up to something that good looking at times (eg- Chan on a bad day).
  16. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    I would pick Butyrskaya as best of 99-2002 quad, not Slutskaya (or Kwan). She was robbed of winning the 2000 worlds as she deserved 2nd place in the long which would have given her the title. Some would say it is unfair Michelle Kwan would lose skating cleanly in each program, while Maria only did good in the short, but that doesnt matter to the factored point. The factored points say Maria with 2nd in the long wins the gold, and that is what she deserved since her performance even with the mistakes should not be below Irina's juvenile Carmen which also had mistakes. That would make her the only one with 2 big titles that quad. We can also safely assume had she not been robbed there and at 2000 NHK where she again should have beaten Irina, and even Pater Carruthers was irrate at the result, she would have atleast medalled at both the 2001 worlds and 2002 Olympics with her confidence with the judges took away from her still intact.
  17. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    Are we really asking best skaters her or Most hardware?

    I am going to go with skating style and that iconic quality, not palmares.

    My votes would be

    95-98
    pairs- Nobody - they were all middling until Ber/Sik arrived at the tag end of that quad
    men- Kulik
    dance- Gritschuk & Platov
    ladies- Kwan

    99-2002
    pairs- Ber/Sikh
    men- Yagudin
    dance- Anissina & Peizerat
    ladies- Kwan

    2003-2006
    pairs- Totmianina & Marinin
    men- Plushenko
    dance- Denkova-Staviski
    ladies- Cohen by the end

    2007-2010
    pairs- Shen & Zhao
    men- Lysacek or Takahashi
    dance- Virtue-Moir
    ladies- Kim or Asada

    2011-2014
    pairs- Nobody - they are all middling
    men- nobody - they were all inconsistent
    dance- Davis & White
    ladies- Asada or Kostner

    I also could not quite bring myself to name Slutskaya (who I originally listed for 2002-2006) because, as already mentioned, her basic stroking really was pretty ungainly.
  18. amaro

    amaro New Member

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    95-98
    pairs- Woetzel & Steuer
    men- Stojko or Kulik
    dance- Gritschuk & Platov
    ladies- Lipinski or Kwan

    99-2002
    pairs- Sale & Pelletier
    men- Yagudin
    dance- Anissina & Peizerat
    ladies- Slutskaya or Kwan

    2003-2006
    pairs- Totmianina & Marinin
    men- Plushenko
    dance- Navka & Kostomarov
    ladies- Slutskaya

    2007-2010
    pairs- Shen & Zhao
    men- Lysacek
    dance- Virtue & Moir
    ladies- Kim

    2011-2014
    pairs- Volosozhar & Trankov
    men- Chan or Hanyu
    dance- Davis & White
    ladies- Kim

    Bold-faced: dominant in their fields
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2014
  19. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    Kwan was the best from 95-98. 2 World Championships, 1 World silver, 2 National titles, Olympic silver for a two clean skates. Many thought she should have been on the podium at 1995 Worlds. In the 1995-96 season, she won every major competition. Her Lyra Angelica at Nationals is considered by many to be the best ladies LP ever. Likewise, for her Rachmaninoff short program. Tara won Nationals and Worlds only because Michelle made mistakes. Michelle won the long program at '97 Worlds. Tara's record is not as strong, despite her Olympic gold, and her skates are not as memorable.
  20. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I agree with your characterization of Yagudin as dominant between Nagano & SLC and I don't the argument for Plushenko if only those years are considered. I agree Plushenko of 2002-2006 was about as dominant as any skater since Hamilton 81-84, but before Yagudin retired, Plushenko was still mostly a jumper. When I think back, the programs and skating I remember are Yagudin's.

    I don't agree with calling Kim dominant in the most recent quad, though, partly because she competed so little. She won only one word title after Vancouver, which does not seem very dominating to me.
  21. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    My take on "best skater" is that she doesn't have to win the big prize but should have the best qualities that the judging system rewards, plus some general good performances within that quad.

    1995-1998 Kwan (4, 1, 2, 1, 2 at Worlds and Olympics)

    I understand those who value OGM more, but Lipinski only started to co-dominate in 1997 and 1998. She was pretty much MIA in the senior international elite scene in 1995 and 1996. Kwan came a close 4th at 1995 Worlds and a close 2nd at 1997 Worlds, or else the record would look even more convincing even without the OGM.

    1999-2002 Kwan (2, 1, 1, 2, 3 at Worlds and Olympics)

    I think this is pretty clear. Kwan was able to hold off Slute up to 2001.

    2003-2006 ?

    4 different World Champions. Kwan and Slute both fully dominated a season and missed a season, and both missed 2 out of 5 major events of the quad. Arakawa won the OGM on top of the world title but was otherwise quite inconsistent at Worlds (7, 1, 9, -, 1). Meissner is out of the question. Perhaps Cohen, who competed at all 5 major events of the quad and went 4, 2, 2, 3, 2, is a legit choice.

    2007-2010 Kim (3, 3, 1, 2, 1)

    Asada went (2, 1, 4, 1, 2) so it's close, but Kim's victory over Asada were with bigger margins.

    2011-2014 Kostner (3, 1, 2, 3, 3)

    Again, 4 different World Champions. Ando is out of the question. Kostner medalled at all 5 big events. Kim skipped 2 Worlds and never did the GPs again, but otherwise went (2, -, 1, - 2) at the big 5 events. Like in the last quad, Asada was up and down and went (6, 6, 3, 1, 6). I think I will go with Kostner.
  22. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I think I'd have to agree with this.
  23. amaro

    amaro New Member

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    I agree mostly except for the ladies 2011-2014. To me Kim displayed her continuing dominance for the quad by just showing up at 2013 Worlds out of nowhere after skipping all the major events of the previous two seasons and still managing to emulate her score and the leading margin (20+ points over Kostner in the 2nd place) that she pulled in 2010, all the while both Kostner and Asada competing in it. The way she rose above other skaters really showed who was the true top skater in the women's field, regardless of how many times she competed over the previous years. 2013 Worlds was the first time after Vancouver she was really motivated for a win because she was expected to obtain two more Olympic slots for Korean juniors. The results showed what happens when she is motivated.
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2014
  24. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Men:

    1995 - 1998

    I know Stojko is the logical choice but to me he really is the best competitor or the best athlete rather than the best skater. Looking at the Worlds and Olympics which he competed in within that quad, he never won a short program. That means, there is always someone else the judges prefer when they and Stojko went clean at the same time, whether it be Eldredge, Urmanov or Kulik. And that would suggest the only reason that Stojko won was because these 3 made mistakes in the free. Conversely, when these skaters are remotely clean, they beat Stojko.

    1999 - 2002 Yagudin who won 4 of the 5 big prizes within the quad

    2003 - 2006 Plushenko

    Plushenko and Lambiel both won 2 World titles and went 1-2 in Turin, but Lambiel actually never beat Plushenko. So as much as I don't like Plushenko's skating and believe COP is designed to precisely reward skaters like Lambiel, Plushenko deserves the honour more.

    2007 - 2010

    4 different World Champions. Lysacek won the Olympics whilst Joubert had the most impressive Worlds results (but bombed Olympics). Joubert went (1, 2, 3, 3, 16), Lysacek went (5, -, 1, -, 1) and Takahashi went (2, 4, -, 1, 3). There is probably no clearly dominant skater within the quad, but I would say Lysacek took advantage of the system the best whereas Joubert was admittedly more of a 6.0 skater and Takahashi got digned by <s once in a while and may have lost the 2007 World title because of it.

    2011 - 2014 Chan, without a doubt
  25. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Upon further reflection I would change a few of mine.


    1995-1998:

    Pairs: Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze- I usually would hold back on giving it to a team based on only 1 strong year of skating, especialy when they failed at the Olympics that year. However what they displayed at the grand prix final, Europeans, and even worlds and the Goodwill Games was so far above everyone else all quad I have to go with them. Had Kazahkova & Dmitriev won the 97 worlds, which they would have without his two goofball double toes I would have gone with them due to their OGM. Had Shishkova & Naumov placed better or won the 95 and 96 worlds I would have gone with them, especialy if they competed at Nagano and placed top 3 or 4.

    Men: Kulik- the title of the thread was best skater, not most achievements which is where I initially picked Elvis. Kulik was also stronger than Elvis overall in both the 95-96 and 97-98 seasons, so it is not like Elvis was always dominant above Kulik even in competition. Was just a shame he didnt do his 95 Europeans or Junior world performances at worlds, his 95 Centennial on Ice performances at the 96 worlds, never skated his packed LP to his potential in 96-97. I thought of picking Urmanov along the same lines.

    Dance: Gritschuk & Platov

    Ladies: Tara Lipinski. I thought of changing my vote to Michelle Kwan, but ultimately Tara winning almost every somewhat significant event for 2 seasons, and beating Kwan almost everytime to do it was just too much to overlook. How can you be better than someone who keeps kicking your ass for the most part, and I am a Michelle fanatic who doesnt even like Tara. As for Tara winning often just because Michelle made mistakes, well that already says alot. Tara was a tougher competitor than the skater whose biggest advantage whenever Tara wasnt around was being a tougher competitor, especialy in the big moment than everyone else. Yet Tara at 14-15 was tougher than that, my hats off to her.



    1999-2002:

    Pairs: Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze. I would put Sale & Puketier as the 4th best pair of the quad overall.
    Men: Yagudin
    Dance: Anissina & Peizerat
    Ladies: Slutskaya

    wow that quad was so much easier and the only choice I had to think even a split moment about was the ladies. 1995-1998 was so much harder to decide in all but the dance.


    2003-2006:

    Pairs: Totmianina & Marinin- I know Shen & Zhao fans like to say they got lucky but even in 2003-2004 when both teams were healthy T&M won 4 of 6 meetings. They were simply more consistent and unlike 2009-2010 where S&Z went undefeated despite not doing a single clean long program since all the other top teams of that era never skated cleanly either, if S&Z made even one mistake against super consistent T&M it was defeat. Also IMO their unision, lines, and basic skating are also superior to S&Z even if they dont have the humungous tricks, excitement or emotion on ice of S&Z.

    Men: Plushenko

    Dance: Denova & Stayviski with Delobel & Schoenfelder as runner up. Navka & Kostomarov were the best competitors and deserved most of their titles but not the best actual ice dance team in terms of overall ability and programs.

    Ladies: Slutskaya. What she did from July 2004-December 2005 when the grand prix final loss to Mao pointed the start of her decline, was just so far above what anyone else did this quad.
    There is really no other good choice either with Cohen failing to win a single world level event, and Shizuka's spotty (at best) overall record.


    2007-2010:

    Pairs: Savchenko & Szolkowy. I prefer a team who skated and won medals all quad, rather than one who didnt skate a single competition during the heart (the middle 2 seasons of the quad). S&S by this point also brought more to the table than Shen & Zhao as far as technical and program innovation, but Shen & Zhao were the better competitors, with by then a much stronger federation (how much it is funny if you were told in the late 80s that twenty years later China would have a stronger skating federation with more political pull than the soon to be Unified Germany), and more popularity with judges and fans than S&S had built up.

    Men: Takahashi. His 2008 Four Continent and 2010 world title performances blow away anything anyone else produced. Lysacek or Joubert was probably most successful of the quad, but best skater was Takahashi, followed by Lambiel (based on his 2007 worlds LP, 2007 grand prix final performances, etc...)

    Dance: Delobel & Schoenfelder. I am sure they would have defended their world title in 2009 but for her fluke injury in the grand prix final exhibition, and without her accidental pregnancy medalled at the 2010 Olympics (probably as 2 time world champions won the gold in Vancouver at full fitness, even if they didnt deserve to).

    Ladies: Yu Na Kim.


    2011-2014:

    Pairs: Volosozhar & Trankov. I thought of picking S&S considering V&T didnt win anything significant that S&S was in until 2013 Europeans, and even up to this season S&S were still beating them sometimes. However not just 1, but 2 Olympic golds, and that V&T began to turn out many clean performances which S&S never did, and it had to be them. It is not like S&S turn out the original masterpieces that make the artistic impact they used to either, and even if V&T still havent come up with a captivating program the power and quality of their elements, speed, lines, and overall skating is amazing.

    Men: Hanyu. Hanyu's skating the last 2 seasons, maybe even last 3 seasons (although he wasnt a good or mature enough skater yet in 2011-2012) was overall more consistent than Chan ever managed for a long period, it was just a shame he got sick/injured for the 2013 worlds. Ignoring consistency for a moment I would say Chan is the better artistic skater with stronger basic skating, but Hanyu is still the better technical skater with better jumps, jump combinations, and spins.

    Dance: Davis & White. I think V&M's Carmen is a more iconic program than any D&W came up with but hard to deny 3 seasons of total dominance, and 1 season the two teams were very close.

    Ladies: Yu Na Kim. Skated barely a third of the quad, even less in a way, and still probably achieved more than anyone else. Also there are many who would say she deserved to win all of the 2011 worlds, 2013 worlds, and 2014 Olympics.
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2014
  26. OliviaPug

    OliviaPug Well-Known Member

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    Tara wasn't even competing in Seniors in 1995. She placed 4th at Junior Worlds that year and 5th at Junior Worlds in 1996 and 15th at Senior Worlds in 1996. So, obviously Tara is not even in the running in those years and certainly wasn't kicking anyone's ass in Seniors -- even though she was clearly a force to be reckoned with. Tara didn't kick Kwan's ass consistently for 2 seasons either. Kwan won the free skate at 1997 Worlds. That was Tara's only World win and she didn't even win the LP. Kwan beat Tara at Skate America in the 1997-98 season. And Tara lost to Laetitia Hubert at her other GP event in the 1997-98 season. Although Tara won the Champion Series (later known as GP) that season, she didn't compete against Kwan in the final because Kwan was injured and didn't compete. Kwan beat Lipiniski at 1998 Nationals and was an extremely close 2nd to Tara at the 1998 Olympics, winning the SP over Lipiniski. How many other times did Kwan and Tara compete head-to head? I don't see much ass-kicking there. And Kwan won Worlds in 1996 (and everything else she competed in that season) and Worlds in 1998 (where, of course, Lipinski did not compete).

    Tara was mighty impressive, but I can't give her the best skater of the quad. Her record doesn't earn her that distinction, in my opinion.

    O-
  27. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    I just don't get how anyone can think Tara was the dominant skater in 95-98. She was dominant in only one season: 96-97. Kwan was equally dominant in 95-96. Tara wasn't even a senior in 94-95 and doesn't hold a clear edge in 97-98, when Michelle was injured and when Tara didn't compete at Worlds. Michelle beat her every time they met that season except at the Olympics. In my opinion, from 1995-2001, Michelle was the dominant skater. I think it is a stretch to argue otherwise.
  28. rickmercer

    rickmercer Member

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    Pairs- dont care. Pairs sucks last 20 years

    Ladies- Lipinski for 95-98 since she won both worlds and olympics, and her results in other events didnt all suck like Shizuka and Lysacek which is the only thing that could override being the only one to win the 2 biggest events. Slutskaya for 99-2002 since lets face it from 2000 to 2002 Irina was always the one to beat by far and Kwan would only pull off an occasional upset win like 2000 and 2001 worlds if she skated lights out and Irina made mistakes. Slutskaya from 2003 to 2006 for lack of a better option, but Sasha is also a possible choice. Nobody should pick Shizuka. Kim the last 2 quads easily.

    Dance- Gritschuk, Anissina, Virtue & Moir, and Davis & White are the only ones worth noting. I mention only Gritschuk and Anissina since Platov and Gwendal were their doormates they dragged the ice and not worth mentioning.

    Men- Stojko for 95-98, Yagudin for both 99-2002, Plushenko for 2003-2006, Takahashi for 2007-2010, Chan for 2011-2014. Yagudin can thank Plushenko's groin injury in 2002 or else that would be Plushenko too.
  29. rickmercer

    rickmercer Member

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    Well many also picked Berezhnaya & Sikhardlidze for 95-98 and Hanyu for 2011-2014 and they shone even less of the quad than Tara. Before this year what had Hanyu achieved. Before 1998 season B&S had a 9th place at worlds and bronze from Europeans as their career highlight. What is the difference.
  30. rickmercer

    rickmercer Member

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    Comparing Tara to Michelle your way to, Tara was by far the best in 96-97, Kwan in 95-96, and they split being the best in 97-98, so even in that sense they are tied. Both were the best 1.5 seasons, if we give them both credit for 97-98 which is generous to Michelle when Tara won the only event both badly wanted. Yeah of course Michelle was better than 12 year old junior skater Tara in 94-95, but she herself wasnt even one of the 3 best skaters in the world that season so does it really matter. That Tara managed to equal the amount of time that quad having the best results as Michelle despite being 2.5 years younger and stating the quad as an 11 year old is even more impressive if anything. Her youngest ever records will probably last forever, and are nothing short of remarkable.
  31. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Other than the Championship Series Final in 1996/1997, has there been an international competition where Tara Lipinksi beat Michelle Kwan in every phase of the competition? Even accounting for only Tara's final two seasons, Kwan had beaten Tara outright at the 1996/1997 Trophee Lalique and 1997/1998 Skate America. The only other international head-to-heads they both had in those two seasons were the aforementioned Championship Series Final, 1997 Worlds, and the 1998 Olympics, the latter two had Tara losing the LP and Tara losing the SP. Only accounting for those two seasons, it looks Tara wins if you compare number of wins, but then one should also account for the fact that prior to beating Kwan at Nationals and the CSF in 1997, Tara had lost all of her international competitions (something Kwan didn't do save for Centennial on Ice in the 1995/1996 season). Even the following season, she lost both of her Grand Prix assignments until the GPF.

    I know she won where it counted (like Kwan would do the following quad against Slutskaya), but I think the battle between Lipinski and Kwan in that period is really close and could be argued either way.
  32. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I think it's very clear both in terms of big international results and actual skating that Kwan was the best skater in the 1995-8 quad and the 1999-2002 quad.
  33. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I agree, but I was talking in the perspective of someone who would only take the final results and nothing else into consideration.
  34. rickmercer

    rickmercer Member

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    By that logic you could say the same to an even greater degree for Kwan vs Slutskaya in the 99-2002 quad. Did Kwan ever beat Slutskaya in all programs even once in a real competition that quad (I am excluding USFSA cheesefests like Hershey Kisses, Keri Lotion, Diet Sprite, which I dont even remember any of, only talking about official ISU events). I cant recall it ever happening. In fact Slutskaya leads Kwan in head to head that quad by an overwhelming 8-2, and the only two times Kwan won she did not beat Slutskaya in both programs. She was behind Slutskaya in the short of both the 2000 and 2001 worlds, and one of those times Irina wasnt even 1st either. By contrast Slutskaya not only beat Kwan 8 of 10 times they met that quadrennial, but beat her in each program 5 of those 10 occasions. So if that is the argument to make a stronger case for Michelle against Tara in 95-98, it only makes Kwan's case vs Irina for 99-2002 almost non existent.

    As for Tara only beating Michelle since Michelle had mistakes as one earlier poster said, and that somehow implying Kwan was better, well Michelle could only ever beat Irina from 99-2002 if she skates lights out and Irina made mistakes and was subpar. That is why she has only 2 wins over Irina that whole quadrennial and both times that is what happened, Kwan had to skate a lights out LP with a triple-triple and Irina (and even Maria also) still had to make mistakes for Kwan to win. So any logic that helps the case for Kwan vs Tara in 95-98, makes her case vs Irina in 99-2002 even weaker.
  35. rickmercer

    rickmercer Member

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    In actual skating Irina was a superior skater to Michelle from 2000 onwards in every technical aspect of skating- jumps, jump combinations, spins, footwork, speed and power. Well all except spirals if you count that as a technical element, one so irrelevant it has been phased out of the short program under IJS. Even Irina on a bad day for her had higher technical marks than Michelle at her absolute best in the LPs of the 2000 and 2001 worlds. Michelle was superior in most presentation aspects most of the time, but still probably not enough in the end.
  36. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Yes, if you read my next paragraph, you would have seen I acknowledged that.
  37. rickmercer

    rickmercer Member

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    I also dont understand the poster who said Stojko won when others made mistakes. I am not a fan of Stojko's skating but I found the reverse true. Whenever Stojko skated perfectly with his quad-triple he was unbeatable, no matter what anyone else did. Lets look at the events he lost:

    1994 Olympics- popped first triple axel to big single and didnt even attempt quad. Still was huge controversy over his loss.
    1996 worlds- fell in short, would have won easily otherwise.
    1998 Olympics- pulled groin, wasnt able to attempt quad.

    He didnt win short programs? He won the short at the 94 worlds, both 97 grand prix finals, so he often won the short in big events. 95 worlds and 98 olympics he was a close 2nd and ahead of many top guys who were clean. The only event that gives some traction to the theory is 97 worlds, but that pissed Elvis off and he blew the other guys away in the long. Dont piss off Elvis.

    Who could beat a clean and perfect Elvis? I dont think Kulik who didnt have much artistry or even much more than Elvis when he was an amateur. He would have probably developed more had he stayed in past 98. Eldredge, Candelero, Weiss, or Zagarodniuk beating a clean Elvis is a joke, Elvis didnt even need his quad to beat those guys skating cleanly. Urmanov is the only one I could possibly see beating a perfect Elvis with a quad-triple, but he would need a clean program with atleast a solo quad, something he has never done.
  38. rickmercer

    rickmercer Member

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    Butyrskaya better than Kwan in 99-2002, by 2 people no less? Are you on crack.

    Shibutanis 3rd best for 2011-2014? At what, the biggest fluke world medal in ice dance history. Their bronze at the 2011 worlds was the biggest farce ever and a return to the dark ages of ice dance judging. Judges from that event should all be hung.
  39. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Very much like Stojko, I wouldn't argue Slutskaya was the better athlete, but definitely not the better skater. OK maybe the better technical skater. Still, while her elements had difficulty, they never really had the finesse and quality. I do really liked her layback.

    In terms of results, Kwan was always a very seasoned skater and worked to peaking at the right time, so it's no surprise that she would lose out to Slutskaya earlier in the season but rise above at Worlds. (if you read my takes, you will see I only really look at the 5 big comps) I don't even want to get into the weird judging that went on that quad, like that infamous 2001-2 GPF. Yeah like Slutskaya really deserved 5.8s in the second mark ever. If Butyrskaya had continued strongly post-1999, I don't think Slutskaya would even be in contention with Kwan. It's just about whose basket RUS Fed wanted to put their eggs in. Kwan vs Bute would make a beautiful rivalry if Bute could land about 1 more triple each free skate.
  40. rickmercer

    rickmercer Member

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    Bute was never going to be a real rival to Kwan. Bute was inferior to Kwan in both technical ability (atleast a bit), artistry (atleast a bit), consistency (a ton), and respect and popularity from the judges (a ton) so how could there be a rivalry. Slutskaya vs Kwan was Slutskaya's superior technical ability vs Kwan's superior artistry, they were skaters of similar consistency once Irina got past her late 90 slump, and both were respected, loved, and perhaps even held up/pampered compared to others by the judges, so that makes an even rivalry. Bute vs Kwan would just make people go Huh? Bute vs Kwan is like Sharapova vs Serena in tennis, someone who does everything better than you, and has the huge pyschological edge. No rivalry comes of that, and the Russian fed. knew it too and were wise which to support.

    Bute had a chance to show she was for real and defend her world title in 2000 and screwed it up like usual. She had a chance also in the 98 olympics where she only had to skate about 65% of her best to medal, and again blew it. She had a huge chance to win the 2000 grand prix final where neither Irina or Michelle skated that well, and avenge the controversial NHK loss and blew it super badly, doing only 1 triple and losing to Hughes. She could never prove she was the real deal. She gave the Russian fed. no reason to even consider to not always go back to Irina, as if the choice wasnt obvious enough already.

    The Russian choosing Bute to try and push as the Kwan rival would be like the Americans choosing Hughes as the one they tried to push as the Slutskaya rival rather than Kwan. Big federations arent that stupid.