Best skater of each quad from 95-98

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by fracturedleg, Mar 25, 2014.

  1. moviechicko_o

    moviechicko_o New Member

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    If you just look at their direct match-ups, they seemed rather even (Plushenko: 7, Yagudin: 6) but Yagudin really had a monopoly on the bigger events. If you take away the nationals, then Plushenko only has 4 wins over Yagudin and he never beat Yags in the 97-98 season.

    98-99: Plushenko won Nationals, Yagudin won GPF, Euros and Worlds.
    99-00: Plushenko won Nationals and Euros, Yagudin won Worlds.
    00-01: Plusheno won Nationals, GPF, Euros and Worlds.
    01-02: Yagudin won GPF and Olympics.
     
  2. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Active Member

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    Only the girls:

    95-98: 1. Chen, 2. Lipinski, 3. Kwan, 4. Bonaly, 5. Bobek
    99-2002: 1. Slutskaya, 2. Butyrskaya, 3. Hughes, 4. Kwan, 5. Suguri
    2003-2006: 1. Cohen, 2. Slutskaya, 3. Arakawa, 4. Asada, 5. Kwan
    2007-2010: 1. Yu Na Kim, 2. Asada, 3. Rochette, 4. Ando, 5. Lepisto
    2011-2014: 1. Yu Na Kim, 2. Kostner, 3. Asada, 4. Lipnitskaya, 5. Ando

    2011-2014: 1. Hanyu, 2. Chan, 3. Takahashi, 4. Fernandez, 5. Ten
    2011-2014: 1. Virtue & Moir, 2. Davis & White, 3. Shibutanis
    2011-2014: 1. Volosozhar & Trankov
     
  3. platapus

    platapus New Member

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    95-98 Lipinski, no pairs, no man, Pasha Gritschuk
    99-2002 Slutskaya, Sale and Pelletier, Yagudin, Anissina
    2003-2006 Slutskaya, Totmianina and Marinin, Lambiel, no dance
    2007-2010 Yu Na Kim, Savchenko & Szolkowy, no man, no dance
    2011-2014 Yu Na Kim, Savchenko & Szolkowy, Hanyu, Davis and White
     
  4. poirierpaul

    poirierpaul Member

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    It is funny Michelle Kwan is considered the better skater between her and Irina, when most consider Irina the best skater of 2 quadrennials and Michelle of 0. I guess the gap between Michelle and Irina in the 95-98 one was much more than the gap between Irina and Michelle in 99-2002 and 2003-2006 combined though.

    Yagudin wasnt the best skater of any quad. He won his titles only when Plushenko had injuries. Plushenko was super unlucky, after 99 Yagudin was never really the best again. Plushenko's brain cramp handed him the 2000 World title, and Plushenko's groin handed him the 2002 Olympics and World titles, otherwise Plushenko would have never lost to Yagudin in a major event again after 1999 Worlds. Yagudin was also handed the 1998 World title on a gold platter due to Kulik's withdrawal, he never would have won otherwise.
     
  5. moviechicko_o

    moviechicko_o New Member

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    Injury or no, Plushenko would not have won in 2002 with the way Yagudin skated (low risk but clean) and with weaker artistic programs. He would've needed Yagudin to make a mistake, which is how he won everything in the 00-01 season.
     
  6. poirierpaul

    poirierpaul Member

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    At that years Grand Prix final Yagudin was perfect and only beat Plushenko by .1 with Plushenko turning out of his quad-triple, and not attempting a 2nd triple axel as Yagudin did. At the Olympics he had 2 triple axels, one in a super hard sequence, so skating cleanly he would win. Scott Hamilton even said "Yagudin hopes everyone skates bad". Barb Underhill said Yagudin could win if he were clean and Plushenko and Stojko made mistakes.

    At the 2000-2001 season Grand Prix final Yagudin was perfect and lost to Plushenko. Plushenko was given almost all 5.9s on both sets before Yagudin even skated his final program. Then at the 2001 Worlds Yagudin skated a clean short and again lost to Plushenko.
     
  7. moviechicko_o

    moviechicko_o New Member

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    Yagudin stepped out of his 2nd quad at the 00-01 GPF while Plushenko was flawless and Yagudin still had a few 1st place ordinals. At Euros, Yagudin also had a mistake on the 2nd quad and singled a 3A, and also managed some 1st place ordinals vs. Plushenko who was again flawless. Worlds was a different story since Yagudin was pretty much out of gold contention after QR.

    In 02, neither was perfect at the GPF. Yagudin doubled some jumps while Plushenko had a turnout.

    At the Olympics, Plushenko was out of gold contention after the SP so it really didn't matter who won the LP. It's not like Goebel would've beaten either of them barring a huge meltdown.
     
  8. poirierpaul

    poirierpaul Member

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    Yagudin barely put his foot down on the 2nd quad at the 2000-2001 Grand Prix final. That was not a big enough mistake to lose by, and it is clear by the marks Plushenko got before Yagudin even skated he was never wining anyway. He would have needed 6.0s from atleast 3 judges IIRC.
     
  9. poirierpaul

    poirierpaul Member

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    Hanyu is the best of this quad now. Olympic + World + Grand Prix final gold always wins, as long as there are a few other decent results which for him there is (World bronze 2012, World 4th 2013, Grand prix final silver over Chan in 2012-2013). Chan would trade his achievements for Hanyu's, especialy minus the 2 Worlds silvers and other things he achieved in 2008-2010.
     
  10. poirierpaul

    poirierpaul Member

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    I agree. No way is Shizuka the best skater of the 2003-2006 quad. Maybe the only case in history someone who won Worlds and Olympics wasnt the best skater of the quad, with Petrenko in 1989-1992 vs Browning being the other. Her other results were just too poor to have a real case. I would put her behind Slutskaya for sure. Not sure about Cohen, as Cohen didnt even win a World title, but then again Cohen's body of work that quad is so much more impressive and 95% of the time she was a way better skater getting way better results than Shizuka so probably her too. Kwan I wouldnt put above Shizuka for that quadrennial, but could even see a possible case for her.

    Anyway had Shizuka been marked correctly in the short programs of the 2004 Worlds and 2006 Olympics she probably would have won neither event.
     
  11. moviechicko_o

    moviechicko_o New Member

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    His hand definitely touched the ice on that quad. That is enough of an error when your competitor was spotless. And back in those super final days, it was just 2 skaters so the marks themselves were even more meaningless. And honestly, if Yagudin had been as flawless technically as Plushenko, his program would've deserved 6.0's on the second mark.
     
  12. apatinar

    apatinar Active Member

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    how could Slutskaya make any list? Her truck driver style skating with knocked knees that had to constantly be covered up by long rags on just about every competitive dress she had hardly makes her the best of her quad..
     
  13. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    99-00: Plushenko won the GPF too
    01-02: Yagudin won Worlds too
     
  14. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Yagudin missed the 2000 GPF and Plushenko missed 2002 worlds so those don't count, weren't direct match-ups.
     
  15. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Oh, really i didn't read the whole text! THX!
     
  16. crisp

    crisp New Member

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    Agree.
    The post-Vancouver was the Chan age.

    The first half of the last quad : 1.Chan 2.Dai
    The second half of the last quad : 1.Chan 2.Hanyu

    Chan's historical 13TEB performances top all Hanyu's this season winning performances(13GPF,14Oly,14WC). And IMO, I feel that Chan was a little robbed of the titles at 13GPF & Sochi. So even for this 1314 season, I would say Chan ≥ Hanyu.
     
  17. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Active Member

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    Delusional. For 2013-2014, Olympic Gold + World gold + grand prix final gold >>>>>>> Olympic silver + bogus World gold (2013).

    Chan was also never robbed of anything in his life. How can the most held up skater in history be robbed of winning even more titles. His 2013 and 2012 world titles are among the most controversial in history, along with a few of his other dubious grand prix wins. I guess Chan fans get so used to the the cushy 5 fall margins he was given which ruined the fading credability sport they convince themselves he was somehow robbed even when he bombs the short program (GPF) or makes 5 jump errors over 2 programs (Olympics).
     
  18. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Active Member

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    Since ultimately it is about titles before opinions of skating to most. In terms of achievements Slutskaya probably did the most in 1999-2002, and since Shizuka is a 2 event wonder many are probably iffy on giving her the title for 2003-2006 so go with Slutskaya by default. Slutskaya was also the best of her era in every technical aspect of skating- jumps, spins (well Sasha had better spins at one point), footwork, speed, even if not the best in any artistic aspect.
     
  19. Xela M

    Xela M Active Member

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    :lol: I agree with all of this. The 5 fall margins made me laugh out loud!

    The mens' Olympic event in Sochi was hilarious. Some never got off the ice.
     
  20. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

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    Results wise Irina was the best skater of both the 99-2002 and 2003-2006 quads. 99-2002 is between her and Kwan. Kwan has 1 more world title, but Irina has the higher Olympic medal so it is pretty much a tie there. Irina wish her 3 grand prix final wins to 0 for Kwan and general greater dominance of the overall grand prix and general circuit, and winning most head to head meetings with Kwan, is the tiebreaker. 2003-2006 only Shizuka could be put above her, but with so many terrible results outside her 2 big wins Shizuka is a poor choice for best of the quad, so it is Irina by default. Sasha cant be picked when she couldnt even win a single worlds, had she won the weak 2006 worlds it could have gone to her easily.
     
  21. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I don't really get how anybody would really win the 2003-2006 quad for ladies when nobody really dominated. Slutskaya only dominated one season and a half really until the Grand Prix Final 2005/2006 where she was declining a bit.

    Sasha dominated the GP series in the 2002-2003 season including the GPF but wound up losing to Kwan at Nationals, and then not medaling at all at Worlds. She even performed a clean performance in the QR at 2003 Worlds but placed third in her QR round to both Kwan and Sokolova. You can say Cohen dominated the GP series again in 2003-2004 except she ended up losing the GPF to Fumie Suguri and then the World title to Shizuka Arakawa.

    Shizuka is a one-hit wonder with only one winning long program to Turandot. Although, the 2006 version was more of a remix. She did end up winning Worlds and the Olympics, but her record otherwise is unremarkable (I think even Suguri has a better overall record that quad).

    Kwan won 2003 Worlds and Skate America that season after being called in at the last minute after Hughes dropped out, but she skipped the GP series in both 2003/2004 and 2004/2005. Her Worlds results were respectable in 2004 and 2005, but not close to being the dominate skater she was in prior to 2004. She ends up not even competing in the 2005/2006 season at all.

    Overall, even if we had to pick a "winner" I wouldn't say the person who one chooses is far-and-away the dominate skater and instead became the dominate skater by someone's idea of a tie breaker that's supported by some arbitrary reasoning.
     
  22. beyoncerocks

    beyoncerocks Member

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    Best skater of the 2003-2006 quad has to be Slutskaya or Cohen. Most accomplished of the quad has to be Slutskaya or Shizuka. Since Slutksaya is the only one who can possibly qualify for both she is probably the choice, although a shaky one at best.

    Cohen should have so easily been the best skater of that quad. Should have won the 2004 worlds, 2006 Olympics, and 2006 worlds, and more than 1 Nationals. Even winning 1 of those titles would have given it to her given her consistently strong results all quad which no other women had. The 2006 worlds was worst of all her failures, how on earth she blew that.
     
  23. beyoncerocks

    beyoncerocks Member

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    Ladies- 91-94 Yamaguchi, 95-98 Lipinski, 99-2002 Slutskaya (barely over Kwan), 2003-2006 Slutskaya, 2007-2010 Kim, 2011-2014 Kim or Asada
    Men- 91-94 Petrenko, 95-98 Stojko, 99-2002 Yagudin, 2003-2006 Plushenko, 2007-2010 nobody, 2011-2014 Hanyu
    Pairs- dont care
    Dance- 91-94 Klimova & Ponomarenko, 95-98 Gritschuk, 99-2002 Anissina, 2003-2006 Navka, 2007-2010 Virtue & Moir, 2011-2014 Davis & White

    It feels funny to give Slutskaya two skaters of quads and Kwan 0 when considering their whole careers Kwan is much greater.
     
  24. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I think it's like Kwan's skating itself. It looks way better when you take everything as a whole.
     
  25. beyoncerocks

    beyoncerocks Member

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    Wow that is a great summary. That is the problem with IJS, it doesnt even take that into account. It is nothing but the sum of the parts, even if the whole doesnt add up to something that good looking at times (eg- Chan on a bad day).
     
  26. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    I would pick Butyrskaya as best of 99-2002 quad, not Slutskaya (or Kwan). She was robbed of winning the 2000 worlds as she deserved 2nd place in the long which would have given her the title. Some would say it is unfair Michelle Kwan would lose skating cleanly in each program, while Maria only did good in the short, but that doesnt matter to the factored point. The factored points say Maria with 2nd in the long wins the gold, and that is what she deserved since her performance even with the mistakes should not be below Irina's juvenile Carmen which also had mistakes. That would make her the only one with 2 big titles that quad. We can also safely assume had she not been robbed there and at 2000 NHK where she again should have beaten Irina, and even Pater Carruthers was irrate at the result, she would have atleast medalled at both the 2001 worlds and 2002 Olympics with her confidence with the judges took away from her still intact.
     
  27. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    Are we really asking best skaters her or Most hardware?

    I am going to go with skating style and that iconic quality, not palmares.

    My votes would be

    95-98
    pairs- Nobody - they were all middling until Ber/Sik arrived at the tag end of that quad
    men- Kulik
    dance- Gritschuk & Platov
    ladies- Kwan

    99-2002
    pairs- Ber/Sikh
    men- Yagudin
    dance- Anissina & Peizerat
    ladies- Kwan

    2003-2006
    pairs- Totmianina & Marinin
    men- Plushenko
    dance- Denkova-Staviski
    ladies- Cohen by the end

    2007-2010
    pairs- Shen & Zhao
    men- Lysacek or Takahashi
    dance- Virtue-Moir
    ladies- Kim or Asada

    2011-2014
    pairs- Nobody - they are all middling
    men- nobody - they were all inconsistent
    dance- Davis & White
    ladies- Asada or Kostner

    I also could not quite bring myself to name Slutskaya (who I originally listed for 2002-2006) because, as already mentioned, her basic stroking really was pretty ungainly.
     
  28. amaro

    amaro Active Member

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    95-98
    pairs- Woetzel & Steuer
    men- Stojko or Kulik
    dance- Gritschuk & Platov
    ladies- Lipinski or Kwan

    99-2002
    pairs- Sale & Pelletier
    men- Yagudin
    dance- Anissina & Peizerat
    ladies- Slutskaya or Kwan

    2003-2006
    pairs- Totmianina & Marinin
    men- Plushenko
    dance- Navka & Kostomarov
    ladies- Slutskaya

    2007-2010
    pairs- Shen & Zhao
    men- Lysacek
    dance- Virtue & Moir
    ladies- Kim

    2011-2014
    pairs- Volosozhar & Trankov
    men- Chan or Hanyu
    dance- Davis & White
    ladies- Kim

    Bold-faced: dominant in their fields
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2014
  29. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    Kwan was the best from 95-98. 2 World Championships, 1 World silver, 2 National titles, Olympic silver for a two clean skates. Many thought she should have been on the podium at 1995 Worlds. In the 1995-96 season, she won every major competition. Her Lyra Angelica at Nationals is considered by many to be the best ladies LP ever. Likewise, for her Rachmaninoff short program. Tara won Nationals and Worlds only because Michelle made mistakes. Michelle won the long program at '97 Worlds. Tara's record is not as strong, despite her Olympic gold, and her skates are not as memorable.
     
  30. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I agree with your characterization of Yagudin as dominant between Nagano & SLC and I don't the argument for Plushenko if only those years are considered. I agree Plushenko of 2002-2006 was about as dominant as any skater since Hamilton 81-84, but before Yagudin retired, Plushenko was still mostly a jumper. When I think back, the programs and skating I remember are Yagudin's.

    I don't agree with calling Kim dominant in the most recent quad, though, partly because she competed so little. She won only one word title after Vancouver, which does not seem very dominating to me.