Best ice dance team in history

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by usova94gold, Jul 16, 2013.

  1. coraczek

    coraczek Member

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    Yes, it is :D. Actually I think Blumberg & Seibert deserved bronze in Sarajevo, not Klimova and Ponomarenko.
  2. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

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    B&S deserved the silver in Sarajevo! There is no way Bestiamanova & Bukin should have beaten them. 2 judges did have B&S 2nd btw, while not a single one had K&P 2nd. I might have had K&P ahead of B&B too and given B&B no medal there.

    B&S also deserved the silver hands down at the 83 worlds, in fact even more than the 84 Olympics. They easily crushed B&S in all the dances up until the FD, and then were somehow dropped to 3rd by barely losing to B&B in the FD, even after a great free dance skate. It was a travesty.

    What hurt B&S was there was already T&D up there, and that probably annoyed the Soviet heirarchy so B&S were often the sacrificial lambs. That plus their proneness to big falls in major events. At the 81 worlds they were had a chance to win atleast silver at worlds, and maybe even challenge T&D for the gold, and took a huge fall and ended up 4th behind old Moiseeva & Minenkov and B&B. They had other costly slips. So even when at the 83 worlds and 84 Olympics they didnt have them and performed outstandingly the dye had been cast. They lost any chance to ever challenge T&D and fell behind B&B in the world ranks for good with their falls in early year events, and with the Soviets always wanting multiple medalists and atleast the silver medal, they were often then shafted downwards further for politics.
  3. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

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    B&S definitely deserved silver at the 83 Worlds and 84 Olympics. I had K&P for the bronze in Sarajeva though ahead of B&B. For me, B&B were just kind of cheekily dancing on top of the ice rather than using the ice to demonstrate any real edge work like T&D and B&S did.
  4. coraczek

    coraczek Member

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    Are you really serious with this team event?
  5. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I think the team achievement has some merits. Especialy when you turned in dominant skating to help your team win the gold or their given medal in a big way like Lipnitskaya or V&T. When you get crushed and beaten by more points than you were in the individual, and are closer to the 3rd placed Russian dancers of the gold medal team than to the individual winners as V&M were in the team event, your team silver vs the team bronze is not really an edge however.
  6. Xela M

    Xela M New Member

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    Exactly. The fact that D&W so clearly beat V&M in the team event kind of makes the whole argument laughable.
  7. parapluies

    parapluies Well-Known Member

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    But D&W still got bronze overall though. Does that not matter?. If you focus only (emphasis on only) on the overall standings in the team event and not the individual standing in the TE, that technically makes D/W's dominance over V/M shorter as V/M (team Canada) have silver and D/W (team USA) have bronze. But at the same time the team event is different. However, To say that V&M team silver is not an accomplishment to D&W's team broze because because D/W scored higher and V&M were closer to I/K is like saying C&L's world gold is not an accomplishment because I/K scored higher than them in the FD by over 3 points and because their FD score was closer to W/P who were third in the FD and that is not fair to say. There obviously are some differences with the team event but still to say that those aren't an accomplishment or don't count is erroneous.
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2014
  8. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    No it is not the same thing as C&L still clearly outperformed I&K overall at worlds. They skated 2 very strong programs, while I&K skated one excellent one and one very poor one, and even with visibly inflated PCS and "hold up" attempt by the judges still finished 4th to C&L's 1st overall.

    V&M in no way outperformed D&W in the team event at the Olympics or were even close to doing so.
  9. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I think you're trying too hard. The team medals just aren't persuasive in an argument where you're trying to compare individual achievements of two skaters/teams. The C/L v. I/K comparison doesn't fit because those are still all about the individual achievement of C/L and I/K.
  10. parapluies

    parapluies Well-Known Member

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    But you still get an Olympic medal in the team event and that is worth more than a World medal right?.... That's not important?
    So the medals in the team event does not count ?at all? Does that mean World Team Throphy does not count as well? If that is so, D/W's win(individually and overall) over V&M in WTT 2012 does not count either, which also shortens their dominance over V/M as well. Obviously there are other factors that determine an overall winner for a world medal (in this case the SD). Likewise, there are also other factors that determine an overall winner in a team event, like other team members performace. The point is that sometimes skaters can score higher than other skaters and beat other skaters but overall can still be below them in the standings because the skater either performed poorly in other segments (in the case of I/K SD at 2014 Worlds) or the skaters team members performed poorly in their respective segments (in the case of Team USA at the Team event) but that does not take away the accomplishment of the skater's they beat and the skater that placed above them. To clarify, just because Skater A outscored Skater B yet still placed below them because of certain circumstances (such as poor performances in a certain segment, team or individual) does not invalidate skater B's placement above skater A. It is ahrd to compare the team event to an individual event that is true but that does not mean there aren't similarities.
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2014
  11. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    If you want to say V&M's team Olympic silver is an achievement above D&W's Olympic bronze that is fine, but it doesnt do anything to undercut D&W's total dominance in competition over V&M the tail part of their careers when individually they still didnt outscore D&W even once or beat them once in an individual competition their last 2 years. I didnt even say I would rate D&W as a better team than V&M either. As my earlier comments I dont believe this, but there is no denying V&M were dominant by another team the final 2 seasons of their career when still in their primes, and this doesnt help their "best ever" case IMHO.
  12. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Whatever makes you feel better.

    Sometimes, it's just better to not try to dwell too much on medal count or placements. They don't tell the whole story and you're not obligated to be holden to using that as your basis for determining which skater/team is the best ever. It's a stupid question anyway.
  13. parapluies

    parapluies Well-Known Member

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    IMO there are sometimes where D/W's total dominence over V/M is questionable, as with other Ice dancers listed in this poll. GPF automatically comes to mind. People can complain all they want that V/M's win in 2012 was questionable because of Moir's mistake but the difference between Worlds 2012 and GPF 2013 is that Moir's mistake wasn't on a element whereas D/W made mistakes on elements (i.e. they had issues with synchronicity) yet still won. It's true that D/W dominated V/M for a while (2 years) but calling it "total" dominance is an exaggeration because total dominance for me would mean beating a skater in ALL segments (short and long) and in everything (such as TES, PCS etc.) and there were times in the past two years where V/M beat D/W in the SD, in TES, etc. This means there were times where it was possible where D/W's could've been defeated. In the past two years, V&m were always constantly pushing and challenging D/W.
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2014
  14. parapluies

    parapluies Well-Known Member

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    Well you are right about medal count... :shuffle:
  15. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand what you're trying to say here. If you think I was making a statement about V/M or D/W, then you're wrong.
  16. neptune

    neptune New Member

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    Yes, that's understandable. Since your experience mirrors that of many fans, it seems that the title of this thread should be changed to "Best Ice Dance Team of the Past 35-40 Years." ;) Even though I don't know anything about them, I suspect some of the early British dancers might be good candidates for best ever.

    That's one reason these polls, which can be a lot of fun, don't really count for much. :) If you really want to know who the greatest teams were, the best way is probably to consult a skating historian, a veteran ice-dance coach, or someone like Dick Button, who is up in years and has been following skating for at least 5 decades.
  17. neptune

    neptune New Member

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    Exactly. It's much easier to count medals and titles, but a lot harder to evaluate a team based on the quality of their performances over many years. That's why teams like Blumberg & Seibert, while they never won any Olympic medals, probably deserve to be higher up on a "greatest ever" list than many teams who did.
  18. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

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    I think this poll is more about ice dance team qualities and what they bring to this sport, then about medals.
    If only medals will count it will be clear GP will win this nomination.
    For example, in my opinion Moiseeva-Minenkov (if you know who they are) were better team, then Linitchuck-Karponosov, who are OGM.
    Or from this season. IMHO, PB are better team, then CL, who are World champions.
    As for Blumberg & Seibert. I think they could consider like best USA team. I think in 1984 Wilson-McCall had better FD (IMHO). And of couse KP in such a young age were simply amazing.
  19. newyearsmovie

    newyearsmovie Member

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    I voted for Davis & White. A shame to see them so far behind Virtue & Moir in this poll despite convincingly proving their superiority. Torvill & Dean would be 2nd choice, Klimova & Ponomarenko 3rd, Anissina & Peizerat 4th, and Virtue & Moir way down in 5th place. Gritschuk & Platov I would have 8th behind Bestiamanova & Bukin and Pakhomova & Gorshkov for those wondering. Usova & Zhulin and Krylova & Ovsiannikov would complete my top 10.
  20. lauravvv

    lauravvv Well-Known Member

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    Davis/White no way, although I like them. But neither are Virtue/Moir in my opinion, although they are my current favorite ice dance team. Torvill/Dean all the way - also for their work as professionals.
  21. newyearsmovie

    newyearsmovie Member

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    T&D are great but the speed and power of D&W push them ahead. T&D even at their peak could not match that level of speed and power and the incredible lifts, twizzles, and spins of D&W.
  22. girlscouse62

    girlscouse62 Active Member

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    IMHO power and speed do not surpass technique, innovation, and the ability to express music the way T/D did. Also pointless to say T/D couldn't match D/W lifts etc. because in the rules then they were not required in the same way they are now. I would like to say that T/D pushed the boundaries with their lifts at that time which,again IMHO, has lead to the way that lifts are done now.
  23. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    It is kind of odd to see G&P with so few votes as the best team ever despite all they achieved. It just goes to show Olympic golds don't determine the best ever despite some who like to trumpet it as the be all and end all of the sport. Pretty much nobody thinks of Witt or G&P as the best ever even though they have more Olympics golds than everyone else, and there are some who think of skaters like Kwan, Janet Lynn, Midori Ito, Browning, or Cranston as the best skater ever of their gender, and none of those has an Olympic gold.

    It also goes to show those who think whether Yu Na Kim would be considered the best ever hinging on winning the 2nd Olympic gold are mistaken. I think there are only 1% of people who follow skating who would be swayed by it either way. Those who belive she would the best ever with a 2nd gold, are all the same ones who think she already was; and those who didn't she was would before would not be swayed by a 2nd Olympic gold either. If anything I wouldn't be surprised if she is elevated or rated even higher in peoples minds since that type of controversy seems to oddly build skaters up. The same way it happened to Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze who seem more highly revered, loved, and rated by what happened in SLC than had they had a more dominant and less strangely processed win (which as a B&S fanatic I am thrilled by). Kim will probably end up the same way.
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2014
  24. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    T&D being considered the best dance team ever is another good example of that too, as of the 5 or 6 best dance teams ever their Olympic record while outstanding, is the poorest.

    G&P-2 golds, a 4th in 3 Olympics
    B&B- 1 gold, 1 silver, in 2 Olympics
    K&P- 1 gold, 1 silver, 1 bronze, in 3 Olympics
    D&W- 1 gold, 1 silver, 1 team bronze in 2 Olympics
    V&M- 1 gold, 1 silver, 1 team silver in 2 Olympics
    T&D- 1 gold, 1 bronze, a 5th in 3 Olympics

    They too show the Olympics are not the be all and end all in skating. Many of the same people who probably stated at one point they feel it is, also probably still voted for them in this poll.
  25. jackcrougar

    jackcrougar New Member

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    Virtue & Moir must be a huge fan base on this forum. Only 1 vote behind T&D? I hope they don't pass T&D as that would be crazy.

    V&M are a great team but should be below T&D, K&P, D&W, and even Gritschuk & Platov.
  26. parapluies

    parapluies Well-Known Member

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    :rofl:
  27. newyearsmovie

    newyearsmovie Member

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    Virtue & Moir winning this poll over the godly Torvill & Dean. What a joke. V&M fans are the craziest bunch in the sport, even worse than Michelle Kwan fans. I wonder if V&M ever did a skate which would get almost all 6.0s like T&D in their primes.
  28. newyearsmovie

    newyearsmovie Member

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    I would like to hear one V&M explain how on earth they can be better than the godly Torvill & Dean.
  29. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    I agree about three of those, but I'd put D/W on the same level as V/M, pretty much.
  30. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I think Klimova & Ponomarenko and Gritschuk & Platov are easily on the same level as V&M too. Even if they were behind, there is no way they are at a lower level altogether. I think some younger fans forget how great some of the teams past are.

    V&M and D&W are great, but they also benefit from a dire European and Russian field of teams. Some younger fans probably look at the Russian teams now and assume that is the level the great Russian teams past like K&P, G&P, K&O, U&Z, B&B, and all others were at, when nothing could be further from the truth. In the glory days of Russian or Soviet dance a team like Bobrova & Soloviev would retire after never getting higher than 7th at Nationals.
  31. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I just noticed "other" has only 1 vote. That is pretty unusual. I guess OP did a great job selecting which teams belonged on a poll like this (minus the bizarre Bourne & Kraatz selection, but they were maybe included since they the OP knew they have an annoying uber base, and alas they have 2 votes).
  32. sylvestercat

    sylvestercat Member

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    This poll just makes it all the more evident the extreme bias to recent or current skaters on this forum, and maybe to skating fans outside this forum. V&M and D&W 1st and 3rd, please. More like 5th and 6th if one is generous. No wonder Kwan and Kim who might actually be the 2 best skaters ever (although I don't think they are, but atleast it isn't crazy like D&W and V&M) collect 99% of votes between them on every poll, no matter what the poll is. People forget anyone that was more than 20 years ago, sometimes more than 5 years ago, existed in the first place.
  33. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Active Member

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    I have a hard time seeing V/M and D/W (lucky to be) as the 5th and 6th best ice dancers ever.... I know one might be bitter about their recency and collecting poll votes, but they are up there among the best and there's no need to diminish them...
  34. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Active Member

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    ...I also see that you voted for D/W on this poll
  35. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if I would put V&M and D&W 5th and 6th but that also is not an unreasonable rank for them at all. Torvill & Dean and Klimova & Ponomarenko are both clearly better IMO. Gritschuk & Platov and Pahkomova & Gorshkov could both be arguably put ahead of both too. The rank of both I would estimate as no higher than 3rd for sure and possibly as low as 6th. Had Krylova not had her back injury, Krylova & Ovsiannikov would probably have a good case too. Anissina & Peizerat you could possibly even argue for, although I would probably put them behind.
  36. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Active Member

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    One thing is that I just find it exceedingly difficult to compare pre-IJS and post-IJS ice dancing. It's like apples and oranges to me, I don't know if anyone shares that sentiment. I just can't wrap my head around ranking the dancers here.
  37. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    When it comes to ice dancing I think you mostly rank things like impact, creativity, and basic skating quality (edges, flow, close positions). The technical and even presentation requirements change over time, but you can look beyond that. Along with record of course.
  38. Shyjosie

    Shyjosie Member

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    ITA.

    Maybe a poll should be made of two components: best skater/couple under 6.0 and best under IJS.
  39. itoaxel

    itoaxel Member

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    I voted for Klimova & Ponomarenko but the only reasonable alternatives are Torvill & Dean, Davis & White Gritschuk & Platov, or Anissina & Peizerat. The best team ever cant be a team who was owned by their biggest competition, and beat them only 2 out of 10 times in a 4 year period like Virtue & Moir were by Davis & White. It is basically like "hey this team is my owner, and I am their slave, but I am still the best ever." How can you be the best ever when you aren't even the best of your own era. It is almost like Federer and Nadal in tennis but atleast for now Federer has better stats and did better vs the field.

    While I rate Virtue & Moir way higher than Linichuk & karpanasov or Navka & Kostomarov for instance, even though would have a better claim to best ever than Virtue & Moir. Atleast they were clearly the best of their era and you cant prove they were weaker than anyone else of any other era they didn't compete against (although it is obvious to most people) but V&M you can prove were inferior to a team of their own era.
  40. tortellini

    tortellini Member

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    are you seriously comparing that to slavery? i'd be careful with that kind of analogy because you seem to be forgetting that slaves basically carried the whole fabric of society on their backs without receiving the credit. you might as well be implying that dw piggybacked to success on v/m's backs and piggybacked off of v/m's successes while v/m did all the hard work to push the sport further without receiving the credit.
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2014