Best ice dance team in history

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by usova94gold, Jul 16, 2013.

  1. coraczek

    coraczek Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2013
    Messages:
    266
    Chris Dean's choregraphy for D/D was wonderful and they should be forever grateful for it. But after 1992, they did some exhibition pieces, not choreographed by Chris (which didn't surprise as Chris and Isabelle's marriage ended). I like this routine very much
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8qXFGWIc_Q
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2014
  2. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    792
    That makes me laugh. They must've convinced by all the atrociously biased commentary on them by the CBC commentators.
     
  3. coraczek

    coraczek Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2013
    Messages:
    266
    I think for some people "best" is synonymous to "favourite". :p
     
  4. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,354
    One of the posters might be Shae Lynn. I always got the impression she sure as heck thought she was the best dancer ever. At times she made Pasha Grischuk seem humble (and sane as far as her self perception goes).
     
  5. Johnny_Fever

    Johnny_Fever New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2010
    Messages:
    1,101
    I met Bourne & Kraatz when they were the reigning World bronze medalists. Victor was a delight. Shae Lynn was as you describe her.
     
  6. coraczek

    coraczek Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2013
    Messages:
    266
    Both V/M and D/W are great teams. But I think some of their fans, especially younger ones, don't remember older teams. So their choice can also bring some doubts. But it is usually so, that we are not excited with the events, that happened before we could see them. Of course we should be grateful for sites like YT, but watching sth live is not the same as watching from the retrospective.
     
  7. Johnny_Fever

    Johnny_Fever New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2010
    Messages:
    1,101
    Nice. I tried to find the freedance that made an impression on me in 87, but I don't think its out there. I'm pretty sure they skated to MalagueƱa, and the outfits were awesome. Paul looked like a matador, and Isabelle looked like a flamenco dancer.
     
  8. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2012
    Messages:
    703
    Well neither is winning this poll and D&W are only 4th, so I dont think they are being overrated. The poll results dont indicate they are head and shoulders the 2 best teams ever, just that they are in the same league as teams like Torvill & Dean, Klimova & Ponomarenko, and Grischuk & Platov, and I think that is correct.

    Grischuk & Platov might be underrated in this poll, but their style of dancing is not most peoples cup of tea, so I am not surprised at their low vote count. Given a multitude of reasonable options, most wont pick someone that doesnt excite them on a personal level as best ever. Plus many just dont like Pasha on a personal level so wouldnt pick them as best in any positive based poll unless they were a huge level above the rest in their view, which they probably are not.

    Pakhomova & Gorshkov are probably the most underrated but considering most of the posters here (myself included) werent even born when they were dominating, how can one really judge or accurately assess if they have much claim as best ever or not.
     
  9. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2012
    Messages:
    703
    Why are Bourne & Kraatz even on the poll. Putting them on the poll implies they are a top 12 dance team of all time and they certainly are not. I would have put a team like Moiseeva & Minenkov on the poll before them. Even Torvill & Dean spoke very highly of M&M and their impact on dancing, and once predicted them to be unbeatable forever and ever when at their peak, even if an increasing overemphasis on non technical dancing and politics soon after those statements brought them down. Even teams like Linichuk & Karpanasov, Recogzy & Sallay, Duchensays, Navka & Kostomarov, Denkova & Stayviski, Delobel & Schoenfelder, despite all being very poor choices as the best ever I would have on a poll before Bourne & Kraatz. I would even put Drobiazko & Vanagas and Rahkammo & Kokko before Bourne & Kraatz as doing what they did and winning the medals they did from a small country with no federation power at all is much harder than what Bourne & Kraatz achieved skating for one of the most powerful, influential, largest, and corrupt federations there is (despite that Canadians potray themselves as little innocent lambs and victims in the skating world, what a joke).

    I also consider Belbin & Agosto a better dance team than Bourne & Kraatz.
     
  10. coraczek

    coraczek Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2013
    Messages:
    266
    You see, that's what I meant. I also couldn't see P/G live and I can't properly assess their abilities. And of course I didn't vote for them. And I think this applies to some young fans of current teams. They don't remember teams from the 80s or 90s. Having said this I just want to point out that I don't want to take anything from greatness of V/M or D/W.
     
  11. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2012
    Messages:
    703
    Well like I said neither one is winning the poll and D&W are only 4th. So I dont think they are overrated, even if some of the older teams might be underrated.

    Still probably no team in history has had to face a rival that tough. Torvill & Dean faced a nowhere near prime Bestiamanova & Bukin, a baby Klimova & Ponomarenko, and Blumberg & Seibert at a time politics was heavily pro Euro and anti NA in both pairs and dance. Klimova & Ponomarenko faced the much hyped but technically deficient Duchensays, and the Russian understudies and also technically less advanced Usova & Zhulin. Grischuk & Platov faced up and coming Krylova & Ovsiannikov, baby Anissina & Peizerat, and Bourne & Kraatz. Pahkomova & Gorshov faced Moiseeva & Minenkov for only a year or two. Bestiamanova & Bukin faced Klimova & Ponomarenko, but the judges chose to make it no rivalry. K&P were nowhere near their 89-92 level of artistry and innovation anyway though (yet many felt they should have been consistently beating B&B even in 85-88 on their technical superiority alone). No team in history has had to meet the insane technical demands of V&M and D&W they have and delivered with such consistency and perfection time and time again.
     
  12. AlisonS

    AlisonS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2005
    Messages:
    99
    People look for different things - I would imagine that some like passion, some like innovation - I personally love perfect unison. Can you guess who I voted for? Also as an aside, while Grischuk was the better skater, I was always mesmerized by Platov because of his freakishly long legs.
     
  13. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2012
    Messages:
    703
    If you vote was on perfect unision I would guess it was one of Torvill & Dean, Klimova & Ponomarenko, or Davis & White. Those are probably the three winners of the teams on the poll on that. Maybe Krylova & Ovsiannikov as a possability too.
     
    AlisonS and (deleted member) like this.
  14. coraczek

    coraczek Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2013
    Messages:
    266
    It is a bit strange logic. If some of the past teams are underrated, it means that if they weren't, some other teams would receive less votes, maybe these would be current teams.

    Anyway I don't want to argue. Such polls are created just for fun.
     
  15. Shyjosie

    Shyjosie Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2009
    Messages:
    217
    Do you mean this one:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEJ7pecrAss
    ?

    Well this is the Malaguena one, but it's from Skate America 1986. There are vids on YT from exhibitions in Canada in '87 and from the WC exhibition in Paris in '89 where they skated it, too, but the quality is better with this one IMO.
    The theme and music fitted them perfectly.
     
  16. Johnny_Fever

    Johnny_Fever New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2010
    Messages:
    1,101
    Thanks. You found it! That's the freedance I meant. You can see the charisma already, and that was before Christopher Dean got a hold of them. When I walked out of the Freedance event at the '87 World's they were the only team that stuck in my mind. The Duchesnays have always been uniquely suited to any Latin type of number, because they've got just the right look. They took advantage of that many times over the years. The Duchesnays reused at least one freedance that T&D had choreographed for themselves. The Duchesnays did the same number better.
     
  17. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    792
    She seemed deluded. I vaguely recall comments from her after the 97 worlds about how all the top 3 teams were technically all very well matched. Only in her dreams. :lol:
     
  18. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,354
    She even said in an interview after they finished dead last at the 99-2000 grand prix final she didnt see anything wrong at all with their performances or programs there.
     
  19. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    792
    Wow, she's as deluded as her fans.
     
  20. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,354
    Well I guess even she clued into reality at some point after the interview as she wisely skipped worlds (maybe they were injured but I imagine they could have skated, but probably would have finished about 7th) and begged Tarasova to take them on as their new coach, and did actually work their asses off and greatly improve their skating after. While being coached by her they seemed to wise up and be more in touch with reality in their interviews. They also seemed to finally understand you do yourself no favors bad mouthing the judges, the people who are going to score you in future competitions, in an interview. Dubova and Bourne especialy seemed to enjoy creating an increasingly insular fantasy world for themselves, which idiot Canadian reporters unfortunatly fed into further. Eventually you have to come out of your daydream and face reality though.

    When I first saw their free dance in fall 99 I thought to myself "wow their whole team really has reached trainwreck mode now, this is not going to be pretty."
     
  21. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    792
    Funny thing was that Dubova and Bourne were almost 'competing' against one another by 2002 as Dubova seemed to be a consultant of some sort for Anissina & Peizerat. Still, I wonder what Dubova must think looking back at her career.
     
  22. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,354
    She probably realizes the best thing she could have done for her and herself once Zhulin started sleeping around was get rid of him and pair her with someone else. She also would realize she has to be less emotional and more practical in assessing her own teams and what they needed to do.

    I dont know if her relationship with K&P could have been saved and I am not sure if the problem was even really U&Z. I think it stemmed from some creative differences between them at that point. Dubova didnt seem willing to let them truly explore themselves as artists, which was crazy as their losing the FD to the Duchensays at the Halifax worlds indicated from the judges that is clearly what they not only wanted to do, but had to do at that point. That Dubova didnt see the danger of the Duchensays emerging after Halifax worlds, and why K&P badly wanted to expand their style and take greater risks, indicates she was already entering her delusional to reality phase.
     
  23. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    792
    What was so weird about Dubova was that she gave very traditional ballroom type dances to Klimova & Ponomarenko and Grishuk & Platov but much more passionate, fiery, and theatrical type programs to Usova & Zhulin but with a lot less content. The way I always looked at it was that U&Z were a team who needed to be 'dressed' up to distract away from their lack of content.
     
  24. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,354
    Yeah I think she did recognize that well. However that doesnt mean it wasnt time for K&P to expand artistically and do something different. Good grief, if she had let them do that many years earlier (like I imagine they wanted to and in fact they said in the aftermath of the fallout they had wanted to), they probably would have beaten B&B for their 86 world title they were so very close to getting anyway, and never looked back after that. Had they stayed with her they would have almost certainly lost the Olympic gold to the Duchensays or/and Usova & Zhulin which would have been a travesty, and it would have been all her fault for restricting them as skaters and the programs they could skate, even as the judges gave them the red signal they wanted more.
     
  25. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    792
    It was definitely a good thing that K&P took the initiative to expand artistically and move away from someone as stifling as Dubova. Interesting though how as soon as they left her, she let Grishuk & Platov modernize their style. After Zorba the Greek and an Italian folk dance medley, they did a very voidy (and IMO brilliant) FD to a modernized version of Prelude and Allegro by Fritz Kreisler where they represented 2 robots who came to life. I loved that FD as well as their OD that year. I also thought their compulsories were much better than either U&Z or D&D. I honestly would've had them 2nd at those Olympics behind K&P.
     
  26. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    10,032
    Me too. I'm not as enamored by U/Z's Four Seasons. I thought they did that sort of dance way better in 1991 with the Theme of Paganini Andrew Lloyd Webber version. In fact, G/P's 1992 programs are actually my personal faves from them, even though I think Libertango is brilliant.

    I also think what hurts Pahkomova & Gorshkov is that there aren't that many videos of them available on Youtube, unlike the other teams. That said, you can watch their Olympics exhibition tango, and it shows what a brilliant dancer she was.

    Interesting to see that just a few days ago, K/P and V/M were pretty much tied (and had been for a long time since this thread is pretty old). Now, V/M's numbers skyrocketed.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2014
  27. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    10,032
    Double post.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2014
  28. neptune

    neptune New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,952
    To really know who was the best dance team in history, you'd want to talk to someone like Dick Button, who's pretty much seen them all. ;) Most fans who read this board are probably too young to have a balanced opinion. Whenever you have polls like this, recent skaters tend to overperform. In 30 years, will V&M and D&W be ranked as high in this kind of poll, I wonder?

    Also, no doubt there were artistically great dance teams who didn't develop enough technical proficiency to win medals at Worlds. So, it might be nice to have a separate category for those teams as well. :)
     
  29. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,354
    I think V&M will stand the test of time well. D&W less so.
     
  30. neptune

    neptune New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,952
    Possibly. It's hard to say, though. Besides, what about the 5 different British dance teams who won world championships in the 1950s and '60s? Why is nobody mentioning them? Surely one of those teams should be getting votes here as well. The thing is, who among us really knows a thing about them? :) There was a prominent Czech team back then too.