Best ice dance team in history

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by usova94gold, Jul 16, 2013.

  1. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2012
    Messages:
    694
    Well like I said neither one is winning the poll and D&W are only 4th. So I dont think they are overrated, even if some of the older teams might be underrated.

    Still probably no team in history has had to face a rival that tough. Torvill & Dean faced a nowhere near prime Bestiamanova & Bukin, a baby Klimova & Ponomarenko, and Blumberg & Seibert at a time politics was heavily pro Euro and anti NA in both pairs and dance. Klimova & Ponomarenko faced the much hyped but technically deficient Duchensays, and the Russian understudies and also technically less advanced Usova & Zhulin. Grischuk & Platov faced up and coming Krylova & Ovsiannikov, baby Anissina & Peizerat, and Bourne & Kraatz. Pahkomova & Gorshov faced Moiseeva & Minenkov for only a year or two. Bestiamanova & Bukin faced Klimova & Ponomarenko, but the judges chose to make it no rivalry. K&P were nowhere near their 89-92 level of artistry and innovation anyway though (yet many felt they should have been consistently beating B&B even in 85-88 on their technical superiority alone). No team in history has had to meet the insane technical demands of V&M and D&W they have and delivered with such consistency and perfection time and time again.
  2. AlisonS

    AlisonS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2005
    Messages:
    98
    People look for different things - I would imagine that some like passion, some like innovation - I personally love perfect unison. Can you guess who I voted for? Also as an aside, while Grischuk was the better skater, I was always mesmerized by Platov because of his freakishly long legs.
  3. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2012
    Messages:
    694
    If you vote was on perfect unision I would guess it was one of Torvill & Dean, Klimova & Ponomarenko, or Davis & White. Those are probably the three winners of the teams on the poll on that. Maybe Krylova & Ovsiannikov as a possability too.
    AlisonS and (deleted member) like this.
  4. coraczek

    coraczek Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2013
    Messages:
    264
    It is a bit strange logic. If some of the past teams are underrated, it means that if they weren't, some other teams would receive less votes, maybe these would be current teams.

    Anyway I don't want to argue. Such polls are created just for fun.
  5. Shyjosie

    Shyjosie New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2009
    Messages:
    212
    Do you mean this one:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEJ7pecrAss
    ?

    Well this is the Malaguena one, but it's from Skate America 1986. There are vids on YT from exhibitions in Canada in '87 and from the WC exhibition in Paris in '89 where they skated it, too, but the quality is better with this one IMO.
    The theme and music fitted them perfectly.
  6. Johnny_Fever

    Johnny_Fever New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2010
    Messages:
    1,101
    Thanks. You found it! That's the freedance I meant. You can see the charisma already, and that was before Christopher Dean got a hold of them. When I walked out of the Freedance event at the '87 World's they were the only team that stuck in my mind. The Duchesnays have always been uniquely suited to any Latin type of number, because they've got just the right look. They took advantage of that many times over the years. The Duchesnays reused at least one freedance that T&D had choreographed for themselves. The Duchesnays did the same number better.
  7. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    791
    She seemed deluded. I vaguely recall comments from her after the 97 worlds about how all the top 3 teams were technically all very well matched. Only in her dreams. :lol:
  8. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,324
    She even said in an interview after they finished dead last at the 99-2000 grand prix final she didnt see anything wrong at all with their performances or programs there.
  9. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    791
    Wow, she's as deluded as her fans.
  10. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,324
    Well I guess even she clued into reality at some point after the interview as she wisely skipped worlds (maybe they were injured but I imagine they could have skated, but probably would have finished about 7th) and begged Tarasova to take them on as their new coach, and did actually work their asses off and greatly improve their skating after. While being coached by her they seemed to wise up and be more in touch with reality in their interviews. They also seemed to finally understand you do yourself no favors bad mouthing the judges, the people who are going to score you in future competitions, in an interview. Dubova and Bourne especialy seemed to enjoy creating an increasingly insular fantasy world for themselves, which idiot Canadian reporters unfortunatly fed into further. Eventually you have to come out of your daydream and face reality though.

    When I first saw their free dance in fall 99 I thought to myself "wow their whole team really has reached trainwreck mode now, this is not going to be pretty."
  11. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    791
    Funny thing was that Dubova and Bourne were almost 'competing' against one another by 2002 as Dubova seemed to be a consultant of some sort for Anissina & Peizerat. Still, I wonder what Dubova must think looking back at her career.
  12. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,324
    She probably realizes the best thing she could have done for her and herself once Zhulin started sleeping around was get rid of him and pair her with someone else. She also would realize she has to be less emotional and more practical in assessing her own teams and what they needed to do.

    I dont know if her relationship with K&P could have been saved and I am not sure if the problem was even really U&Z. I think it stemmed from some creative differences between them at that point. Dubova didnt seem willing to let them truly explore themselves as artists, which was crazy as their losing the FD to the Duchensays at the Halifax worlds indicated from the judges that is clearly what they not only wanted to do, but had to do at that point. That Dubova didnt see the danger of the Duchensays emerging after Halifax worlds, and why K&P badly wanted to expand their style and take greater risks, indicates she was already entering her delusional to reality phase.
  13. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    791
    What was so weird about Dubova was that she gave very traditional ballroom type dances to Klimova & Ponomarenko and Grishuk & Platov but much more passionate, fiery, and theatrical type programs to Usova & Zhulin but with a lot less content. The way I always looked at it was that U&Z were a team who needed to be 'dressed' up to distract away from their lack of content.
  14. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,324
    Yeah I think she did recognize that well. However that doesnt mean it wasnt time for K&P to expand artistically and do something different. Good grief, if she had let them do that many years earlier (like I imagine they wanted to and in fact they said in the aftermath of the fallout they had wanted to), they probably would have beaten B&B for their 86 world title they were so very close to getting anyway, and never looked back after that. Had they stayed with her they would have almost certainly lost the Olympic gold to the Duchensays or/and Usova & Zhulin which would have been a travesty, and it would have been all her fault for restricting them as skaters and the programs they could skate, even as the judges gave them the red signal they wanted more.
  15. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    791
    It was definitely a good thing that K&P took the initiative to expand artistically and move away from someone as stifling as Dubova. Interesting though how as soon as they left her, she let Grishuk & Platov modernize their style. After Zorba the Greek and an Italian folk dance medley, they did a very voidy (and IMO brilliant) FD to a modernized version of Prelude and Allegro by Fritz Kreisler where they represented 2 robots who came to life. I loved that FD as well as their OD that year. I also thought their compulsories were much better than either U&Z or D&D. I honestly would've had them 2nd at those Olympics behind K&P.
  16. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    9,940
    Me too. I'm not as enamored by U/Z's Four Seasons. I thought they did that sort of dance way better in 1991 with the Theme of Paganini Andrew Lloyd Webber version. In fact, G/P's 1992 programs are actually my personal faves from them, even though I think Libertango is brilliant.

    I also think what hurts Pahkomova & Gorshkov is that there aren't that many videos of them available on Youtube, unlike the other teams. That said, you can watch their Olympics exhibition tango, and it shows what a brilliant dancer she was.

    Interesting to see that just a few days ago, K/P and V/M were pretty much tied (and had been for a long time since this thread is pretty old). Now, V/M's numbers skyrocketed.
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2014
  17. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    9,940
    Double post.
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2014
  18. neptune

    neptune New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,952
    To really know who was the best dance team in history, you'd want to talk to someone like Dick Button, who's pretty much seen them all. ;) Most fans who read this board are probably too young to have a balanced opinion. Whenever you have polls like this, recent skaters tend to overperform. In 30 years, will V&M and D&W be ranked as high in this kind of poll, I wonder?

    Also, no doubt there were artistically great dance teams who didn't develop enough technical proficiency to win medals at Worlds. So, it might be nice to have a separate category for those teams as well. :)
  19. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,324
    I think V&M will stand the test of time well. D&W less so.
  20. neptune

    neptune New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,952
    Possibly. It's hard to say, though. Besides, what about the 5 different British dance teams who won world championships in the 1950s and '60s? Why is nobody mentioning them? Surely one of those teams should be getting votes here as well. The thing is, who among us really knows a thing about them? :) There was a prominent Czech team back then too.
  21. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,324
    To be honest I couldnt even begin to know their names, which I guess tells you something about what happens to many teams over time. :lol: Ice dance for me didnt even start until the Olympics, P&G and Minny & Mo. It is hard to know much about teams who competed before my grandparents were born in a discipline that only entered the Olympics in 1976. In ice dance especialy which for so long wasnt even an Olympic sport for so long and which keeps reinventing its idea of what it is.

    Given that Sonja Henie gets only about 3 votes out of hundreds of voters on best lady skater ever polls, I can pretty much ensure you the teams you refer to probably wouldnt get a single vote (kind of crazy when even Bourne & Kraatz get some but it is what it is).
  22. Shyjosie

    Shyjosie New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2009
    Messages:
    212
    You're welcome, and how I envy you, you watched this live!
    ITA this sort of music suited them best. Have you noticed that lift at 0.56 when Isabelle is on Paul's back with her free leg in an attitude position? They later included it in their West Side Story program, it's my favourite move in that routine.
    Dean had rearranged two programs he had skated himself with Torvill, although he had also altered them in order to make them meet the requirements of competition for the Duchesnays. These programs were Eleanor's Dream in '89 and Missing in '90. T/D had a program called Missing, which starts like the D's Missing, but in a later part includes a piece with vocals which wasn't allowed at competitions at that time.
    I agree, the Duchesnays were more suited for the latin themes. Their looks and their natural expressiveness was just what that sort of music and theme was asking for. You found the right word: charisma - it's something a person has or hasn't (with a faint chance to develop a little bit over lifetime). The Duchesnays have.
  23. coraczek

    coraczek Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2013
    Messages:
    264
    I loved both Missing routines, both T&D's and D&D's. They weren't the same. There were other things to appreciate in each of them.
    I wish I could see Eleanor's Dream performed by T&D. Have you seen it? I think it was never recorded.:(
  24. Shyjosie

    Shyjosie New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2009
    Messages:
    212
    Sadly, I haven't seen it either and I don't know if it has been recorded (what's strange, normally you'd find everything by T/D on some vid or in a doku). I just read a couple of times that it was a piece they had skated themselves; I think it was Dean who talked about it somewhere and I remember reading it. I wish I could watch this version, too.
  25. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    791
    Their 92 programs had a youthful innocence and joie de vivre to them that I found appealing. And the content was excellent too. I guess it's understandable from Zhulin's POV as to why he wanted to get rid of G&P to clear the path for gold in Lillehammer (if that was indeed the reason why he started the affair with her).
  26. coraczek

    coraczek Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2013
    Messages:
    264
    From wikipedia
    "Little is known about this piece and it has never been released commercially and possibly never recorded. It was also created as one of their pieces for the 1987 Ice Capades Tour. In their autobiography Chris states that he actually passed on the dance for Isabelle and Paul Duchesnay to perform in 1988, stating that the dance was about the relationship between a boy and a girl with the boy breaking in upon the woman’s dreams
    Excerpt taken from: Torvill and Dean: Romancing the Ice – Ice Cycles 1988
    Both Dean and Torvill seem eager for responses to their new routines in the show and gratified with the verdict that everything is just great, with special accolades going to "Eleanor Rigby". It was their newest routine and it's a very interesting version of the song, undertaken with Paul McCartney, having little relation to the earlier Beatles recording. The version used was from the soundtrack of McCartney's film Give My Regards to Broad Street. Dean and Torvill hated the movie but really liked that version of the song.
    "It's sort of our version of a dream sequence," says Dean, referring to their routine.
    "And I'm Eleanor," Torvill says simply.
    Torvill is the fragile title character, clad in muted white with pastel tones across the costume. He is a kind of dream lover to her, dressed in mostly black; he is both exciting and dangerous. She fears him, but she wants him too, and eventually her desire overcomes her fear. That is ultimately her undoing, as he twirls her round and round his body and she can do nothing but be manoeuvred at this will. It ends with her in a crucifix form across his back as he carries her off into the fog. She was right to fear him after all..."
  27. coraczek

    coraczek Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2013
    Messages:
    264
    Do you believe it???
  28. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    791
    It's very possible but I obviously don't know the real truth since I'm neither Zhulin nor Grishuk.
  29. Shyjosie

    Shyjosie New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2009
    Messages:
    212
    Thank you very much, coraczek, it's quite what I've read once, too. Paul Duchesnay explaines the storyline of the routine in the D's book "Notre Passion" the same way.
  30. coraczek

    coraczek Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2013
    Messages:
    264
    I haven't heard about this book. Was it translated into English?
  31. Shyjosie

    Shyjosie New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2009
    Messages:
    212
    No, unfortunately there's no translation into any language, it's in French. It was released in '92 and has been out of print for long. I tell you it was an adventure to get a used copy. A friend who's French got me one from a bookstore in France...
    This book is kind of a biography (the author being Martine Carret) but with a lot of photos.
  32. coraczek

    coraczek Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2013
    Messages:
    264
    I know just a couple of French words, so I would never be able to read it. :( But I could look at photos:) if I found a copy. But as you've written it's almost impossible.
    BTW do you know what's happening with Isabelle and Paul now? I lost track after Isabelle's divorce.
  33. Xela M

    Xela M New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Messages:
    684
    I'm a huge Grishuk fan, but although anything is possible, I don't think it's very plausible. I think Zhulin just liked to sleep around and Grishuk fell for his "charms". If she really had a choice between Platov and Zhulin as she says, she really must have been mad to choose the latter :eek:
  34. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    791
    Yeah, it's probably this as he demonstrated later on with Navka. I wonder if Dubova had any other students that we don't know about that Zhulin slept with.
  35. Shyjosie

    Shyjosie New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2009
    Messages:
    212
    From what I know (and that's not much, just info from internet sites and some old magazines), Isabelle is raising her son Paul (named after her brother), and Paul works as a choreographer in the first place. But the information I got is not quite up to date, I fear.
  36. coraczek

    coraczek Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2013
    Messages:
    264
    Thank you. I even didn't know that she has a child.
  37. Shyjosie

    Shyjosie New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2009
    Messages:
    212
    He's already twelve.
    Isabelle obviously keeps him out of the limelight, which is a wise decision. But I live at the other side of the world and don't have the information you may get in Canada.
  38. coraczek

    coraczek Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2013
    Messages:
    264
    Isabelle keeps herself out of the limelight as well :).
  39. Xela M

    Xela M New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Messages:
    684
    I kind of missed all the hype when Dean and Isabelle got divorced (was too young back then) but I know many commentators and Dean himself referred to it as a bitter divorce. What was it about the split that made it such a bad one? Was Isabelle blaming him for something?
  40. coraczek

    coraczek Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2013
    Messages:
    264
    Kim Goat, look at the results now. V/M are very close to being in a leading position. Do you really think that demographics of the voters have nothing to do with that. Look for instance at the post no. 148. I'm sure that there are also other people who didn't watch past teams.