Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by usova94gold, Jul 16, 2013.
If T&D were technically so superior to K&P why couldn't they dance a waltz in 1994?
K/P and T/D brought different things to the table, and "best ice dance team in history" means different things to different people. I also never ever heard of Debbie Islam and google didn't do much to help me in that regard unless you're talking about Mitchell Islam's mom.
Anyway, by your logic, D/W should be ahead of V/M because V/M consistently lost to D/W for the past two seasons. However, I know you aggressively disagree with that. Therefore, going by results alone doesn't do much, does it? Especially in pro events.
I haven't heard about her either. But I think this is the person
Even if we concede D&W were a better team than V&M for two seasons, V&M were a better team (excluding 2010-2011 where they could barely skate due to injury, and rushed to make it back to worlds in subpar shape) every previous one. So no competitive results would not prove D&W being better than V&M, except for the last 2 seasons of their amateur careers.
Yes I am referring to Mitchell Islam's mom. That was her comparision between T&D and K&P, when K&P were still at their best and T&D were about 40 each.
Interesting. Too bad I don't really care. K/P are still my favorites for reasons I stated earlier in this thread.
So are you one of those who think your favorite skaters are always the best ever? Well ok.
I just dont see how you can be better than someone who is beating you all the time. Even meeting years past the other skaters prime they are still always beating you. To each their own though.
Klimova & Ponomarenko had trouble beating the Duchensays though, all because of T&D's choreography. This is a team who had virtually no technical ability to be even a top 5 dance team or anything besides T&D's choreography given to them. So just that one aspect of T&D alone was enough to rival and sometimes beat K&P. Their choreography given to what would otherwise be a couple ducks, made that team a big rival and huge threat to K&P. Imagine facing the whole of T&D themselves. Plus lets be real, T&D in their primes would have had no trouble beating the Duchensays. Or even worse, lost to Bestiamanova & Bukin at every event for 4 years straight.
I don't know. Maybe, I'll ask Debbie Islam. Maybe she can change my mind since apparently her word is gospel.
On another note V&M were the only ones unlucky enough to have to face another top 5 team all time in their primes, which explains why they were less dominant than teams like T&D and G&P. They faced another team that might be the best ever like D&W, making it unrealistic for either to totally dominate for 5 or 6 straight years. T&D did face B&B from 82-84 but they were not in their primes yet.
Are you sure you don't mean Debbi Wilkes? She did TV commentary in the '90s.
I don't think I'd classify either woman as an ice dance expert.
I cant believe 26 people think Davis & White are the best dance team ever. Seriously. I dont care how many titles they win, their frantic, sloppy, and unmagical style of dancing can never be worthy to be deemed best ever. Virtue & Moir are a funny case as you could argue them being worse than Davis & White at this point, but you could also argue them possibly being the best ever. D&W I just cant see that, they just dont have the beauty, polish, or signature programs or style to ever be worthy of such a title. I would put their cap on an all time ranking at 4th. I dont even care which 3 teams you put above them, but 4th is an appropriate cap for tem given what they are lacking in their dancing.
I guess you haven't watched their Compulsories back in 1984. IMO, clearly the best Compulsories ever.
But 10 years later, I guess they haven't trained for compulsories during their pro career...
ITA. T/D forever changed the face of ice dancing. No other team comes close to having their impact on the sport.
You do know that all their "innovation" was due to Christopher Dean's choreography, right?
...and their skating. Their appearances, their expressiveness, their athleticism. Don't get me wrong, I repeatedly admitted that I'm well aware of their technical flaws, but I find it quite upsetting how people insist that all their achievements are due to Dean. Agreed, his choreographies were unmatched and marvellous. But the Duchesnays wouldn't have succeeded if they hadn't had the ability to transpose them to the ice. Their programs wouldn't have worked out if they hadn't been so strong, athletic and artistic, it all goes hand in hand.
I will always call the Duchesnays my favourites. But I'm well aware that they aren't the 'best dance team ever', because technically, they were inarguably behind their competitors.
For skating skills best team is Klimova/Ponomarenko for me. There was a thread about great Original Set Patterns and I watched their waltz, charleston and samba there. Skating very close in difficult dance holds and with speed They are very good only Virtue/Moir came close to them in this area. For interpretation everyone has different favorites as it should be.
T/D were true innovators of the sport. No question about it. However, I do think they were really helped by the fact that they were British and competed at the height of the cold war. If they were Russian, despite how innovative they were, I wonder if they would have captured the Western World's attention as much and gained such a lucrative professional career. In a lot of the retrospectives about T/D, the fact that they beat the dominant Russian machine is always played up.
Thank you. Whilst I absolutely agree with everyone about T&D's immeasurable contribution to the sport, it always made me laugh when Chris Dean claimed to be a victim of politics in ice dancing. Politics in ice dancing contributed immensely to T&D's legendary status and to the rise of the awful Duchesnays. I'm still pretty shocked K&P were allowed to win over them in 1992.
There are so many great teams in the history of the sport that it's hard to narrow down to 1 single best ice dance team. I ultimately went with K/P, but would have had no problem voting for T/D at the #1 spot either. K/O, V/M, & D/W are also in my top 5 greatest teams.
If I had to rank them, my order would probably be: 1) K/P, 2) T/D, 3) V/M, 4) K/O, 5) D/W.
Wow.. K&O and D&W over G&P? Why...?
I still have major issues with her free leg coming down in that Nagano '98 compulsory and them still coming out on top after the scoring. SHADY! Also, I disagree with their Olympic win in '94 too. They were a fine team though; just a bit overrated, IMO. IMO, they should be an Olympic silver ('98) and bronze ('94) medalist team.
Whilst '94 could have gone either way, I do not accept that G&P's Memorial free dance could have lost them the Gold in '98, even though their nerves showed in the compulsories.
The '98 Nagano dance results will always be under major questioning and scrutiny though given it was judged under perhaps the most corrupt judging panel in Olympic history. I agree with the medalists that were on the podium, but would have switched G/P and K/O (love my girl Anjelika). The placement of P/S and D/V was also whack!
Maybe the greatest shame in ice dance pairings is that Platov and Krylova were never partnered. I think they could have been absolutely magical together! <3
I didn't think G&P's win in 1998 was controversial. I could see them losing to K&O if Platov fell again, so I was holding my breath when they skated, but surprisingly he held it together. You could see the pressure on G&P - they aged 10 years since Lillehammer. I think I was almost as relieved as they were when they completed their free skate fall-free.
There is no case for K&O winning in 1998. There is a case for them to win the first compulsory and original dance, but there Carmen FD was awful and should have been lower than 2nd in that phase.
Platov already had the best female ice dancers Russia had to offer at the time throw themselves at him - Grishuk, Navka, Usova... Krylova would have been too much He was a gorgeous partner, but I still think Grishuk made them into champions.
Exactly. She looked absolutely psychotic in that free dance and their choreography had that typically second-rate openness that's common among Linichuk's couples.
As for their golden waltz, I thought Anjelika's odd back posture was super-pronounced in that dance and she struck an extremely ugly and unattractive position during that part where the woman is dipped and lies parallel to the ice. Even though Grishuk had that toe-pick error, they had a much more attractive looking waltz that didn't look like it was worked at so much like you saw with K&O. For the OD, I'm ok with G&P being first. Choreographically, their jive OD was a lot more challenging than K&O's (although not as much as A&P's - A&P had too many errors to challenge for first place there). And K&O's OD expression made me want to vomit. It's hard to make a jive tasteless but they somehow managed to do so.
I haven't watched enough of T&D to say, but of all the others, V&M are the best to me, by far. I think they were so robbed at these Olympics, the quality of D&W's skating is not even close.
I like to brag that I "discovered" the Duchesnays at the 87 Worlds in Cincinnati. They were the only dance team that made a lasting impression on me, and Dean was not doing their choreography yet. Dean played a big part in their success, but the charisma had to already be there.
2 people think Bourne & Kraatz are the best dance team ever. Umm ok.
Dean's choregraphy for D/D was wonderful and they should be forever grateful for it. But after 1992, they did some exhibition pieces, not choreographed by Dean (which didn't surprise as Chris and Isabelle's marriage ended). I like this routine very much
That makes me laugh. They must've convinced by all the atrociously biased commentary on them by the CBC commentators.
I think for some people "best" is synonymous to "favourite".
One of the posters might be Shae Lynn. I always got the impression she sure as heck thought she was the best dancer ever. At times she made Pasha Grischuk seem humble (and sane as far as her self perception goes).
I met Bourne & Kraatz when they were the reigning World bronze medalists. Victor was a delight. Shae Lynn was as you describe her.
Both V/M and D/W are great teams. But I think some of their fans, especially younger ones, don't remember older teams. So their choice can also bring some doubts. But it is usually so, that we are not excited with the events, that happened before we could see them. Of course we should be grateful for sites like YT, but watching sth live is not the same as watching from the retrospective.
Nice. I tried to find the freedance that made an impression on me in 87, but I don't think its out there. I'm pretty sure they skated to Malagueña, and the outfits were awesome. Paul looked like a matador, and Isabelle looked like a flamenco dancer.
Well neither is winning this poll and D&W are only 4th, so I dont think they are being overrated. The poll results dont indicate they are head and shoulders the 2 best teams ever, just that they are in the same league as teams like Torvill & Dean, Klimova & Ponomarenko, and Grischuk & Platov, and I think that is correct.
Grischuk & Platov might be underrated in this poll, but their style of dancing is not most peoples cup of tea, so I am not surprised at their low vote count. Given a multitude of reasonable options, most wont pick someone that doesnt excite them on a personal level as best ever. Plus many just dont like Pasha on a personal level so wouldnt pick them as best in any positive based poll unless they were a huge level above the rest in their view, which they probably are not.
Pakhomova & Gorshkov are probably the most underrated but considering most of the posters here (myself included) werent even born when they were dominating, how can one really judge or accurately assess if they have much claim as best ever or not.
Why are Bourne & Kraatz even on the poll. Putting them on the poll implies they are a top 12 dance team of all time and they certainly are not. I would have put a team like Moiseeva & Minenkov on the poll before them. Even Torvill & Dean spoke very highly of M&M and their impact on dancing, and once predicted them to be unbeatable forever and ever when at their peak, even if an increasing overemphasis on non technical dancing and politics soon after those statements brought them down. Even teams like Linichuk & Karpanasov, Recogzy & Sallay, Duchensays, Navka & Kostomarov, Denkova & Stayviski, Delobel & Schoenfelder, despite all being very poor choices as the best ever I would have on a poll before Bourne & Kraatz. I would even put Drobiazko & Vanagas and Rahkammo & Kokko before Bourne & Kraatz as doing what they did and winning the medals they did from a small country with no federation power at all is much harder than what Bourne & Kraatz achieved skating for one of the most powerful, influential, largest, and corrupt federations there is (despite that Canadians potray themselves as little innocent lambs and victims in the skating world, what a joke).
I also consider Belbin & Agosto a better dance team than Bourne & Kraatz.
You see, that's what I meant. I also couldn't see P/G live and I can't properly assess their abilities. And of course I didn't vote for them. And I think this applies to some young fans of current teams. They don't remember teams from the 80s or 90s. Having said this I just want to point out that I don't want to take anything from greatness of V/M or D/W.
Separate names with a comma.