Best ice dance team in history

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by usova94gold, Jul 16, 2013.

  1. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    That program is really intense. I never understood why it didn't get the acclaim it should I have (I prefer it to TFB, to be honest).
  2. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    'Memorial' is my most favorite G&P program. I have watched it many times. it should have been famous like 'Bolero' was for T&D (even Dick Button compared it with Bolero) but politics were too much against them. In 98 they did not get the credit they deserved for this FD, thanks to the North American media. I remember how upset Pasha (Oksana) was at the 98 Olympics when they were heavily criticized after winning the OGM.

    The judges however recognized the difficulty and rewarded them for it.
  3. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Memorial is good, but it just seemed reductive. I said this in another thread, but personally, it's a program that I feel like I should love, but only just like. I also think their problems with execution all season really prevented that program from singing the way it should have. But what do I know? I actually liked their 1994-1995 OD and FD before they got all Tarasovaed and transformed into the 90s version of Bestemianova/Bukin but with much better difficulty. That said, I do think it was the right move for them and their 1996-1997 programs elevated their status in ice dance canon.

    I really do think it's my taste more than anything, and I've heard enough skating fans calling Memorial a masterpiece where it really may be a signature program. I do wish Pasha stayed in a bit longer because I absolutely loved her look as a pro and she connected with Zhulin in ways she never connected with Platov. And I'm done repeating a post I made in another ice dance thread where I probably said the exact same thing.

    I think a lot of external factors come into play here. For one thing, Virtue/Moir and Davis/White were COP babies and really were able to develop with a COP-focus the way the older teams did not as they developed under 6.0 and then had to adapt for COP. As to why other teams did not blast through the top two spots the way D/W and V/M did? I think maybe political backing + Igor/Marina's guidance played a crucial part in that.

    Now that virtually every competitive team has developed more or less under COP and not 6.0, things have equalized a bit and we probably see more political judging coming into play the way it did under 6.0. However, with COP, it makes it hard for teams to keep a ranking if they really do lose levels or miss elements or fall, etc.
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2013
  4. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

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    Dance is boring under COP. Virtue Moir and Davis & White are certain to be 1-2 even if both have 4 falls. Atleast points indicate that. No drama. Even Torvill & Dean at their peak couldnt fall 4 times and win.
  5. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

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    I could never vote for G&P since I will never forgive them for robbing U&Z of the gold medal they deserved in 1994 and being so arrogant on top of it. I am surprised they dont have more votes in the poll though.
  6. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Did G&P award themselves the gold or did the judges did it?

    Regardless, U&Z's FD was not as great as their FD's in the past. You have to hold their coach accountable for what happened to them.
  7. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

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    I think it was Dubova's fault for making such bad programs for them that year I agree but also Russian federation who stopped supporting them and started backing G&P for no explainable reason. Maybe Alexander slept with an important female in the Russian fed and pissed them off.
  8. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

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    The person I blame most is judge #9 Jean Senft of Canada. Had she voted for Maya & Alexander they would have won. All other judges to vote for G&P were probably part of the Russian bloc since G&P's win was based on the Russian fed. dumping U&Z for G&P, but Senft is Canadian and is not part of any Eastern Europe or Russian bloc. So she had no excuse to vote for G&P and did anyway. Had she given G&P a 5.8 for artistic impression instead of a 5.9 Usova & Zhulin would have won. I was glad to see her banned from skating 4 or 5 years later after what she did to U&Z.

    They would have 4 1st and 5 2nd, while G&P would have 4 1st, 2 2nds, and 3 3rds. Neither would have a majority but U&Z with 9 1sts or 2nds to G&P's 6 would have come out on top easily then. People dont talk about that as a 5-4 split since technically it was 5-3 split, but in reality U&Z lost Olympic Gold by .1 just like others who lost 5-4 splits did.
  9. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    It was such a jumble! U/Z would beat G/P In one area and then G/p would beat them in another! If G/P were so favored they wouldn't have lost anything to u/z! The issue may just have been just a crap free dance compared to the amazing one by G/p! Not even t/d could beat g/p amazing free dance when they won euros! T/d won euros so it was a free for all anything can go year of major instability that is unrivaled even in the cop VMDW era.
  10. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

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    Usova & Zhulin beat Torvill & Dean at Europeans and would have won the title even with G&P winning the FD, but lost it on a flukey ordinal flip. They also would have won the 91 Worlds but ended up 3rd due to whacky ordinals. They are the unluckiest dance team in history by far.

    G&P skated their FD way better at Europeans than Olympics. Even as a U&Z fanatic I would have accepted their win with their Europeans skate, but not their sloppy Olympics one. Tracy Wilson said they were way overscored in Lillehammer and I agree. I would even probably give them only bronze behind Torvill & Dean as well, but no way beating Usova & Zhulin for the gold, even with U&Z's less great FD that year.
  11. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

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    3 judges put G&P way down in 3rd and only winning the bronze behind both U&Z and T&D. No judge had U&Z lower than 2nd. This is proof G&P were weaker there and won due to politics.

    Just like Kerrigan vs Baiul judges ordinals prove the same thing. No judge had Kerrigan as low as 3rd or behind bronze medalist Chen. Two or three judges had Baiul winning only bronze behind Chen, which proves she was weaker than Kerrigan who had no judges put her so low, and it was a political decision of sort.

    That is one of the clues to look for to figure out such things.
  12. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Tracy Wilson has said g/p never deserved to win anything ever in their whole career! I don't care what she has to say when she pronounced Bourne and kratz far superior to g/p in every way in 1998! said they were horrible and awful and k/o should Have won b/k silver and a/p third.
  13. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    This reads like failed politics against g/p! Putting them in third! Ridiculous!
  14. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Right. I mean, the German judge gave K&D 4th place ordinals in Nagano, so does that mean their win was political?
  15. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

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    Three judges had G&P third though so it wasnt just a corrupt judge. This shows their performance was weak enough it was considered virtually equal to the bronze medalists Torvill & Dean, and should not have even been possible to beat U&Z without some type of fix for them to win there.

    Anyway it is obvious even if you dont agree many question the validity of G&P's wins, both the 94 Olympic Gold over the unluckiest team ever Usova & Zhulin and also great Torvill & Dean, and possibly some of their other wins and medals. Look at the tiny number of votes they have on this poll despite their great career, their records like 2 Olympic golds. That sums it up.
  16. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Katia Gordeeva wrote in her book that she really liked G&P's FD. I suspect some judges liked the creativity and others did not, that's why the placings were not consistent. There would not have been a problem if U&Z simply had a FD that was comparable to their past 3 FD's.
  17. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I see why people question G&P's win in 94 and some of the arguments are valid. But it was a very close event, close enough that I'm sure U&Z and T&D winning would've been questioned too. I'm not surprised the ordinals were so mixed considering that each one of them managed to win a CD, OD, or FD, which was unprecedented. It might even have been the fairest judging ever in the Olympics in dance, because there's no discernible agenda.
  18. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

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    I wouldnt be surprised if the Russian fed. gave U&Z their bad FD since they wanted them to lose the Olympic gold. Their federation had clearly dumped them for the most Olympic season of their careers.

    The Russian judges scores is what clearest indicates who was in favor and look how the Russian judge scored the teams in Lillehammer. He had U&Z below G&P in every dance, even the OD where their was far better than G&P. In the FD even giving G&P's messy and no unision FD a 6.0 for artistry, blech.
  19. zotza

    zotza Active Member

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    U&Z made a name for themselves being creative, creating storylines,giving emphasis on that part of ice dancing.And then they had to deal with rules that asked for dancing that resembles ballroom and could be danced on the floor. And they did the program they did. What was the problem?That G&P were so much faster, their footwork was so much intrigued, and the fact that a couple like T&D got on the mix as well. And thus, the russian order was turned upside down.

    If you ask me, G&P were already better back in 1993 that they almost lost the silver to Krylova/Fedorov.So what kind of non russian support towards U&Z are we talking about. Loss of support against a team that was practically told to move to number three?

    And yes, if I was the russian judge in Copenhagen and not the Olympics,I'd see how more competitive towards T&D Grishuk/Platov were at that point.Were they better at Olympics?No,they weren't, but the medal was already won in Euros. It was just a matter of making it decently through the next competition.



    Now,back to G&P.They commited two big mistakes in their career.1st they beat Torvil/Dean and 2nd reversed the russian couples' order.So yes, I can understand the negativity from both parts concerned.
    Cherub721 and (deleted member) like this.
  20. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    You should write a book about that.
    But really, did you watch the competition or are you just interested in rankings and politiks ?

    I didn't vote for G&P because I voted for T&D and their amazing compulsories and creativity from 1981 to 1984. But I could have voted for G&P...
  21. Primorskaya

    Primorskaya New Member

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    I voted for G&P overall with my "rational brain" because I can't stand to see them ranked low, barely ahead of teams that just don't have their technical proficiency and versatility. All the bad press they got hurt them but if you can see past that, the insane difficulty level, the sense of two strong personalities and the passion is amazing. But I vote for K&P with my heart because I've never enjoyed a team more than those two!

    Note to those who think there shouldn't even be a contest and T&D are the best : 1) how arrogant to impose your tastes! We all come here to debate and you'd deprive us of our fun? And 2) do consider that the rules were different then, and that innovation isn't everything.

    I couldn't vote for current skaters because I think we lack perspective on their work, although I expect great things from V&M!
  22. leapfrogonice

    leapfrogonice Active Member

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    Moiseeva & Minenkov
  23. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    How rude of you not to acknowledge and respect them.
    Without their innovations - both as amateurs and in their professional career - the couples you prefer would not have been able to accomplish what they did.
  24. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Member

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    Respecting them doesnt mean everyone has to think best ever for them though. There are other teams that added things to ice dance and were role models for teams to come too.
  25. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    I have the same right to my opinion that you do to yours.
  26. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Member

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    Well the person you respond to was just not agreeing with the one earlier who said there shouldnt even be a poll since only someone without a brain could ever think it it someone other than T&D. That isnt the case.
  27. briantoronto

    briantoronto New Member

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    Why are Bourne & Kraatz on the poll? Are they even considered a top 25 team of all time.
  28. ripingroar37

    ripingroar37 Member

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    Glad to see this poll and the tiny amount of votes for the awful grischuk and platoov. People recognizing even with their achievements they are not in the league of teams like Torvill & Dean, Virtue & Moir, or Klimova & Ponomarenko and never will be. If this poll was redone now Davis & White would get alot more votes too, putting G&P even worse off.
  29. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    :confused:
    For this poll, we had to vote for just ONE team.
  30. ripingroar37

    ripingroar37 Member

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    Yeah and for almost nobody that isnt G&P. Which is great to see. People see they are not in the league of the best 3 or 4 in history. They can win lots of titles but they will never be respected as great as Virtue & Moir, Torvill & Dean, Klimova & Ponomarenko, Davis & White, Bestiamanova & Bukin, or Pakhomova & Gorshkov. Those 6 are in a different league. They perhaps can reside in the second tier with teams like Usova & Zhulin, Anissina & Peizerat, Navka & Kostomarov, Moiseeva & Minenkov but that is it. The poll proves that is how people view them too and it is great to see.
  31. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    LOL
    Maybe everybody thinks they are 2nd best... This kind of poll doesn't prove anything else than 21 people think G&P are the best, whilst 271 people think it's another team...
  32. ripingroar37

    ripingroar37 Member

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    Yeah 3 teams have way more people who think they are the best than you, but you have as many or more as them who think you are atleast 2nd or 3rd best. The likelihood of that is so high. :rofl:

    Just face it. Pasha is an Emperor without clothes, and people see through it. They only won their Olympic gold since Klimova & Ponomarenko didnt comeback and as a reinstated pro anyway.
  33. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    OK, give Oksana Grishuk a rest...
    Why putting all your hate towards her in that kind of thread about "who do you think is the best ice dance team" ? It's supposed to be a discussion about who do you think is the best, and why...not about bashing a skater you don't like. :rolleyes:
    (by the way, I didn't vote for them)
  34. ripingroar37

    ripingroar37 Member

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    I am just pointing out it is great to see people arent fooled into thinking their 2 Olympic golds makes them the best ever. It is a worthless achievement anyway, and great people see that.
  35. Xela M

    Xela M New Member

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    ripingroar37... Considering that in another thread you wanted to put Pasha Grishuk in jail for treason, you are either Maya Usova, Tracey Wilson or Christopher Dean :p so your opinion of G&P has to be taken with a pinch if salt. Anyway, to me G&P are the greatest. No one had their level of difficulty at such incredible speed. Everyone who came afterwards tried to imitate them. They were in a different league to everyone else and completely unrivalled during their peak. T&D (in their prime) and K&P were of course great also.
  36. ripingroar37

    ripingroar37 Member

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    Best dance teams in history:

    1. Virtue & Moir- by far the best ever. Without the politics against them would have won 6 straight worlds and 2 straight olympics. Nobody can match their beauty, technical mastery, and sheer perfection, even Torvill & Dean.

    2. Torvill & Dean

    3. Klimova & Ponomarenko- those of you who are putting K&P over T&D wake up. T&D were dominating K&P in pro competitions in the late 90s, years past their prime.

    4. Bestiamanova & Bukin

    5. Davis & White

    6. Pahkomova & Gorshkov

    7. Moiseeva & Minenkov

    8. Anissina & Peizerat

    9. Krylova & Ovsiannikov

    10. Grischuk & Platov

    See there I did put them top 10. hahaha
  37. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Yeah because pro competitions are fair.
  38. parapluies

    parapluies Well-Known Member

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    :respec::respec::respec: But I want to say weren't their politics aganist T&D? 1994 was long ago I don't remember.
  39. ripingroar37

    ripingroar37 Member

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    They say there was, but they are arrogant narcissists just like G&P (although a much better dance team than G&P in their prime years). There is no evidence there was, and being they won Europeans and were allowed to decisively win the OD at both the Europeans and Olympics when they actually were the best, there is no indication of it.
  40. ripingroar37

    ripingroar37 Member

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    Debbie Islam who is a renowned dance expert made this comment after the 96 world pros "Klimova & Ponomarenko are a great team but just cannot come close to matching the intricate footwork and creativity of Torvill & Dean. Just not in the same league." Her words, not mine.