Best ice dance team in history

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by usova94gold, Jul 16, 2013.

  1. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Member

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    If all skated in their primes vs each other the results would be:

    1. Virtue & Moir- too much difficulty and beauty for others to match.
    2. Torvill & Dean
    3. Gritschuk & Platov
    4. Klimova & Ponomarenko- I love them but they always lost head to head to Torvill & Dean and even had trouble beating weak Douchesays team.
    5. Anissina & Peizerat- I want to put them higher but technical abilities are weaker than those other 4.

    I still pick Klimova & Sergei since I just enjoy watching them most of all.
     
  2. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    Klimova & Ponomarenko were much younger and just coming up when they were going head to head with Torvill and Dean so you can't really go by that.
     
  3. Fancypancy

    Fancypancy Active Member

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    Pure Jealousy .. G/P have 2 gold medals .. But fans being
    Fans of other skaters .. Never give them the recognition they deserve.
    Plus they were so great.. No one even today can come close.
     
  4. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

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    K&P were way down the ladder in terms of seniority when T&D were on top. Next in line were B&B. No way inexperienced K&P would have beaten T&D while the latter were on top. Things like that did not happen in ice dance those days, even if K&P had been at T&D's level (they were not, in 1984 and earlier).

    K&P lost to Duschenays just once, and that was when they were distracted by Marina failing the drug test after the 91 Euros. The second lab test came out clean, so they were allowed to compete at the 92 worlds. However, it cost them 2 weeks of practice time, and the conflict with their coach (Dubova) was a big distraction when the 92 worlds came around. Your statement comes across as they were so weak that they could not even beat the Duschenays multiple times.
     
  5. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    And their losses were more political. I'm sure if COP was implemented at the time K/P were developing (after B/B developed), we could have seen K/P shoot up the rankings much faster the way V/M and D/W did in the 2007-2010 quad considering the under-appreciated difficulty K/P were putting forth. Combine that with Soviet-style ice dance training and musicality, I think K/P would have done quite well. Of course, other teams would have developed differently too, so we don't know if K/P could have been overtaken by a younger team.
     
  6. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    K&P "always lost head to head" with T&D? From a review of wiki, they only ever skated head to head in the 1983-84 season, at Europeans, Worlds, and Olympics, and I hardly think a brand new team could be expected to beat Bolero. IMO Air stands up very well against Bolero, but who knows how the judges would've ranked them.

    I don't think it's a CoP thing because you can't shoot up much faster than winning Olympic bronze in your second year of ISU championships before you've even been to Worlds. K&P's issue wasn't that they didn't move up, it was that they were stuck behind one particular couple, B&B. That may have been a correct result or it may have been political, but CoP can be just as political. Then they were beaten by D&D once, at 1991 Worlds, not multiple times.

    It's hard to say how well K&P would've done under CoP because skills like posture, musicality, and dance ability are not always reflected in the PCS mark as they should be. The question would really come down to how K&P do at the types of elements measured by the CoP. I'd like to think they would do them really well because they're great skaters, but I guess we'll never know for sure. It can be argued that acrobatic lifts, dance spins, and even twizzles don't have a lot to do with actual edgework.
     
  7. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    It also depends on the code as well in terms of what elements would be scored highly and what role GOE plays. Although I do not believe COP has alleviated the political aspect of ice dance judging, I do think that it really opened doors for Virtue/Moir and Davis/White that was unprecedented in the discipline. I mean I know we've see meteoric rises before (K/P in 1984, but then they fell victim being the second ranked Soviet team and G/P in 1994...but the return of Torvil and Dean possibly played a part in that), but I do think COP has allowed much more mobility (up and down) that we haven't seen in ice dance previously.
     
  8. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I do think it's true that CoP has allowed more mobility because you can really take a hit for an off day. Under CoP, K&P might have been able to beat B&B a couple of times in the 85-88 quad, and also may have been beaten by U&Z here and there in 89-92.
     
  9. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    COP opened the doors for DW and VM and then right they went through all the judges closed the doors to anyone but them! No team in any GP event or the worlds or Olympics can even hope to beat VM or DW no matter what they do! No matter what elements get the levels! The judges have shut the doors!! D/W can have lifeless boring tango that gets 10's in PCS! V/M can do a program once and extremely sloppy and ridiculously and get 10's in PCS! It's totally the same! North American teams got in the door became the number ones and all the doors were closed!
     
    Vash01 and (deleted member) like this.
  10. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Their problem is they never had a truly signature program though. That is needed to be considered for the best ever. No doubt they were excellent, technically very strong, probably the fastest team ever, and deserved most or all their titles (no matter how hard bitter cow Tracy Wilson tries to convince others otherwise). They still dont have the signature program(s) or the way they took ice dance in a new direction and left a huge mark other than just being the best team in the World for 5 years that would make many think of best ever labels for them though.
     
  11. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    IMO Libertango and The Feeling Begins were signature programs for G&P. N&K and G&G were both accused of copying them when they used TFB.

    And I would argue that G&P's speed and mad twizzling in 1994 set the stage for modern ice dance. They made it a lot more athletic. Sadly, many of the later teams who have been known for speed did not have the basic technique that G&P did, so this style is often derided as "it's not just speed skating." But in G&P's case, it wasn't. It was technically brilliant, truly danced, great bladework skating.

    I have also said this before but I do feel that in lieu of a signature style, G&P had a lot more versatility than many great teams including the beloved K&P. They have done very North American/British style ballroom programs in addition to heavy dramatic Russian style stuff.
    ETA: In fact I just noticed I said it before on this very thread, but that post is over a month old and I forgot about it. :lol:
     
  12. Fancypancy

    Fancypancy Active Member

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    Cherub 721 agree totally!!!:)))
     
  13. gingercrush

    gingercrush New Member

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  14. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I still think K/P were capable of versatile rhythms and styles...at least they were capable of doing it better. However, I do think G/P were very versatile even if I don't think really think any of their programs were really masterpieces outside Libertango. Even if some of them were close, and I have personally enjoyed quite a few of them, I just don't know if any of their dances are signatures...but then this really depends on consensus and I really have no idea of what the consensus is. Plus, it's hard to know from my perspective since the North American media was heavily and unfairly critical of G/P.
     
  15. BittyBug

    BittyBug Kiteless

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    I voted for Klimova and Ponomarenko because to me they had it all - superior technical skills, precision, breathtaking classical lines, creativity, and above all, passion.
     
  16. Fancypancy

    Fancypancy Active Member

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    Gingercrush .. When you have success like G/P.
    their programs were all amazing .. Again,
    great success comes with the most Critics...but I also love that
    Program... Signature 4 sure!!!
     
  17. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

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    I disagree. 'Memorial', 'The feeling begins' and their 94 FD (for its creativity) were signature programs for them. If Tracy Wilson had not been so bitter while commentating in 98 (Oly), I think a lot of people would have come forward to say how great that program was. TFB at Euros (97) may still be their best performance but the music is overused, so TEB FD does not get the credit it deserves.
     
  18. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

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    They had everything an ice dance team should have.
     
  19. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

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    That is true of #3 and down. The top 2 placements are locked. No matter what anyone does, those are reserved for V&M and D&W. I do like them but there is no mobility when it comes to the very top (1-2).
     
  20. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Member

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    Amazing to see Pasha & Platov with fewer votes than Davis & White. They are really underrated on this poll. What a shame.
     
  21. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    That program is really intense. I never understood why it didn't get the acclaim it should I have (I prefer it to TFB, to be honest).
     
  22. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

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    'Memorial' is my most favorite G&P program. I have watched it many times. it should have been famous like 'Bolero' was for T&D (even Dick Button compared it with Bolero) but politics were too much against them. In 98 they did not get the credit they deserved for this FD, thanks to the North American media. I remember how upset Pasha (Oksana) was at the 98 Olympics when they were heavily criticized after winning the OGM.

    The judges however recognized the difficulty and rewarded them for it.
     
  23. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Memorial is good, but it just seemed reductive. I said this in another thread, but personally, it's a program that I feel like I should love, but only just like. I also think their problems with execution all season really prevented that program from singing the way it should have. But what do I know? I actually liked their 1994-1995 OD and FD before they got all Tarasovaed and transformed into the 90s version of Bestemianova/Bukin but with much better difficulty. That said, I do think it was the right move for them and their 1996-1997 programs elevated their status in ice dance canon.

    I really do think it's my taste more than anything, and I've heard enough skating fans calling Memorial a masterpiece where it really may be a signature program. I do wish Pasha stayed in a bit longer because I absolutely loved her look as a pro and she connected with Zhulin in ways she never connected with Platov. And I'm done repeating a post I made in another ice dance thread where I probably said the exact same thing.

    I think a lot of external factors come into play here. For one thing, Virtue/Moir and Davis/White were COP babies and really were able to develop with a COP-focus the way the older teams did not as they developed under 6.0 and then had to adapt for COP. As to why other teams did not blast through the top two spots the way D/W and V/M did? I think maybe political backing + Igor/Marina's guidance played a crucial part in that.

    Now that virtually every competitive team has developed more or less under COP and not 6.0, things have equalized a bit and we probably see more political judging coming into play the way it did under 6.0. However, with COP, it makes it hard for teams to keep a ranking if they really do lose levels or miss elements or fall, etc.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2013
  24. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

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    Dance is boring under COP. Virtue Moir and Davis & White are certain to be 1-2 even if both have 4 falls. Atleast points indicate that. No drama. Even Torvill & Dean at their peak couldnt fall 4 times and win.
     
  25. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

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    I could never vote for G&P since I will never forgive them for robbing U&Z of the gold medal they deserved in 1994 and being so arrogant on top of it. I am surprised they dont have more votes in the poll though.
     
  26. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

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    Did G&P award themselves the gold or did the judges did it?

    Regardless, U&Z's FD was not as great as their FD's in the past. You have to hold their coach accountable for what happened to them.
     
  27. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

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    I think it was Dubova's fault for making such bad programs for them that year I agree but also Russian federation who stopped supporting them and started backing G&P for no explainable reason. Maybe Alexander slept with an important female in the Russian fed and pissed them off.
     
  28. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

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    The person I blame most is judge #9 Jean Senft of Canada. Had she voted for Maya & Alexander they would have won. All other judges to vote for G&P were probably part of the Russian bloc since G&P's win was based on the Russian fed. dumping U&Z for G&P, but Senft is Canadian and is not part of any Eastern Europe or Russian bloc. So she had no excuse to vote for G&P and did anyway. Had she given G&P a 5.8 for artistic impression instead of a 5.9 Usova & Zhulin would have won. I was glad to see her banned from skating 4 or 5 years later after what she did to U&Z.

    They would have 4 1st and 5 2nd, while G&P would have 4 1st, 2 2nds, and 3 3rds. Neither would have a majority but U&Z with 9 1sts or 2nds to G&P's 6 would have come out on top easily then. People dont talk about that as a 5-4 split since technically it was 5-3 split, but in reality U&Z lost Olympic Gold by .1 just like others who lost 5-4 splits did.
     
  29. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    It was such a jumble! U/Z would beat G/P In one area and then G/p would beat them in another! If G/P were so favored they wouldn't have lost anything to u/z! The issue may just have been just a crap free dance compared to the amazing one by G/p! Not even t/d could beat g/p amazing free dance when they won euros! T/d won euros so it was a free for all anything can go year of major instability that is unrivaled even in the cop VMDW era.
     
  30. usova94gold

    usova94gold Member

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    Usova & Zhulin beat Torvill & Dean at Europeans and would have won the title even with G&P winning the FD, but lost it on a flukey ordinal flip. They also would have won the 91 Worlds but ended up 3rd due to whacky ordinals. They are the unluckiest dance team in history by far.

    G&P skated their FD way better at Europeans than Olympics. Even as a U&Z fanatic I would have accepted their win with their Europeans skate, but not their sloppy Olympics one. Tracy Wilson said they were way overscored in Lillehammer and I agree. I would even probably give them only bronze behind Torvill & Dean as well, but no way beating Usova & Zhulin for the gold, even with U&Z's less great FD that year.