Best ice dance team in history

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by usova94gold, Jul 16, 2013.

  1. radiatesglow

    radiatesglow New Member

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    Had G&P skated their FD at the Olympics like they did at Europeans nobody would have questioned their win. People were also upset they didn't win Europeans that year with by far the best FD.
     
  2. radiatesglow

    radiatesglow New Member

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    And even if G&P's wins in 94 weren't clear cut what other year of their career was their any controversy. From 95-98 they were by far the best and there was no argument for anyone else to beat them. I know Bourne & Kraatz ubers had a nice fantasy they were the best team, while the rest of the world wondered by Anissina & Peizerat and Punsalen & Swallow were regularly losing to them.
     
  3. Shyjosie

    Shyjosie Active Member

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    Yes, and that's what made the programs of the past the masterpieces as which they are still recognized. It was a merit of the 6.0 system that the programs could be created like a picture in which the strenghths of a couple and each partner respectively could be highlighted (and, if neccessary, weaknesses could be concealed, anyways better than today). For the viewer, the pieces which stood out in giving that whole-picture-impression turned out to be the most memorable, regardless of the execution of certain elements and the depth of edges. Of course, the picture became even more impressive the better the technique was.

    Furthermore, I believe that if 6.0 had never existed and the current rules had always been in force, the selection of skaters who were considered able to make it big and got support would have been a lot different to what it was under 6.0. A couple with both partners equally tall would have been questionable (though harmoniously looking), because they would have had to face intricate lifts with many turns by the male, making a smaller female much more favourable. The creation of pieces like Bolero or Memorial wouldn't have been possible. The required elements and technical restraints would have consumed up most of the time and what wowed the audiences then would neccessarily been sacrificed to elements which would be executed by all the other couples, too, with slight variations, say, different lift- or spin positions. WE would have seen barely anything really different from the rest - but excellent skaters with marvellous technique.

    Tststs. An "uber" is a fan of the wrong team, right? ;)
     
  4. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

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    It was less to do with how they skated than their material. I do think they were the best in the world from 93 to 98 but their programs didn't particularly demonstrate that in 1994. Their programs that season were perhaps the weakest of their career. Their rhumba was far too aggressive and wild (although they had moderately smoothed it out by worlds) and their rock'n'roll FD had interesting moments but the choreography had too many open spots. It also failed to utilize their amazingly strong free legs and incredible running edges (which were on display very well during the compulsories). It's ironic that 1994 was their big breakout year though. One thing that really worked in their favour that season was how super-prepared and ready to compete they looked at both Europeans and Olympics. And their youthful energy made the other teams look almost geriatric in comparison. Like them or not, that strategy did work well for them.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2014
  5. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

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    I also think they were the clear cut bests from 95-98 even if many didn't want to give them credit for it. And yes, B&K's fan-base could be as super-annoying and deluded as B&K were themselves (such as completely ignoring how Kraatz did many of the steps in the golden waltz incorrectly and how their OD and FD that year were all hand to hand or side by side).

    Krylova & Ovsiannikov had the best potential to come the closest to G&P in 97 and 98 but Linichuk's second-rate choerography did not help them and their compulsories were skated too far apart. And although Ovsiannikov was a very talented skater (far more so than Krylova's former partner Fedorov), his edging, posture, and free leg extension didn't come close to Platov's who was almost textbook in those regards.
     
  6. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Bourne & Kraatz ubers in the late 90s almost rivalled Michelle Kwan ubers in annoyance levels. And atleast the Michelle Kwan ubers had true greatness to be arrogant, obnoxious as hell, and annoying about.
     
  7. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

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    Very true!
     
  8. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    It also pissed me off to hear someone like Dick Pound (of course a CANADIAN) talking about trying to get ice dance thrown out of the Olympics, just because he was butthurt about B&K not medaling, and because he listented to NA rumors about bloc judging invented due to upset about B&K's results. What a fantasy world he lived in. Thank god he didn't become the IOC leader, as someone so biased towards his own agendas, and trying to definitively judge something he has no knowledge on, and doesn't even bother doing research to learn about, would be a new low for the IOC. I am one of the few ones who liked and laughed that he got fewer votes than a Korean now in jail for taking bribe money.
     
  9. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

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    Wow, I didn't even know about any of this! It's almost funny on a certain level. But I wonder why it was that B&K developed such an incredibly rabid and deluded fan-base. I mean, they had some wonderful qualities but they also had some truly terrible qualities that made them technically inferior than most of their rivals and they rarely attempted ambitious material (save for their programs in 1999 which they could never perform at a high level). The strange thing is that when I saw them in 1995, I was really impressed by their improvement. But it really stalled for them after that when they moved to Dubova and they even started to regress after a certain point too.
     
  10. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I do think they definitely improved from 96 to 97 although I still believe they were overmarked in 97. In 98 they had an interesting idea with Riverdance, and some aspects of what they tried to do with that music were very interesting and potentially very good, but it just never all came together properly. They seemed oblivious that any form of ice dancing must contain the dance predominantly done in some complicated dance hold.

    I think a lot of it was the cold war in skating at the time of North America vs Russia. They were a North American team threatening (well atleast as much as ever was in the days before the really great NA dance teams emerged) the Russian empire. They were also seen as "cool" with their hydro blading, innovation, new ideas, and their rebelliousness on and off the ice. This appealed to many, and they got behind them, with fabricated judging controversies and all.
     
  11. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

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    I was rather satisfied during the U.S telecast at the 98 Worlds when Judy Blumberg tore B&K's programs (mostly their OD) to pieces. I kept thinking 'finally a commentator who will call them out on their lack of content'. But afterwards the other commentator still spoke about a conspiracy as if one actually existed! If there was one, maybe it was to put them where they deserved to be which was firmly behind A&P. But they still managed to finish ahead of P&S which was very questionable considering their material and how they actually skated.
     
  12. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    In this order for me: Torvill/ Dean; Klimova/Ponomarenko; Usova/ Zhulin; Anissina/Peizarat; Denkova/Staviski; Davis/White; Virtue/Moir; Krylova/Ovsiannikov; The Duchesnays; Drobiazko/Vanagas; Bourne/Kraatz; Rahkamo/Kokko; Grishuk/Platov; Belbin/Agosto; Delobel/Schoenfelder; Punsalan/Swallow; Silverstein/Pekarek; Lang/Tchernyshev; The Kerrs; Dubreil/Lauzon; Weaver/ Poje
     
  13. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Interesting to say the least. :rofl:
     
  14. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

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    Come to think of it, they did improve from 96 to 97. But IMO it wasn't all that hard for them to improve as they were pretty second-rate in 1996. They were extremely fortunate the worlds were in Canada that year as I thought they should've been off the podium at Worlds!
     
  15. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Bourne & Kraatz were definitely home courted to their 96 medal. 1997 is the only year ever I thought they deserved their wins over A&P, and even then only due to A&P having such bad material that year, as even that year they were a better team than B&K, but B&K had better and more finely tuned (even if technically easier) programs. If A&P were Russian they probably would have been the team most strongly challenging G&P in that period, moreso than even K&O.
     
  16. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

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    Very true. But even with A&P's weaker material that year, I still thought they should've placed 3rd for their tango OD and then ahead of Moniotte & Lavanchy in the FD.
     
  17. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    It was clear that by worlds A&P were politically on the out. Even Tracy Wilson was stunned when they ended up 5th in the OD.
     
  18. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

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    Yeah I wondered what had happened that made them so politically on the out that season. Luckily for them, it worked out for them the following season. I think the fact that they had far better material in 97-98 worked well for them, at least by the Olympics and Worlds anyways. I couldn't believe they only placed 3rd at the GPF. I had them first in the OD and 2nd in the FD at that competition.
     
  19. prissycat

    prissycat New Member

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    A&P not winning the OD at the years GPF was a disgrace. G&P fell and A&P had the superior OD even had they not fallen. B&K had an awful OD all year, both versions. A&P should have been atleast .3 over G&P and atleast .6 over B&K in the GPF at that event. B&K should have been last in the OD at that event actually.

    A&P also had the best OD by a huge margin at worlds and didn't win it. They didnt even get a 1st place ordinal either. Any protocol or political judging that year was against A&P, not in favor of them.
     
  20. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    I don't get why there's so much hate for B&K. The only program I've ever seen of theirs that was BAD was the 1998 OD, and I think they deserved every placement they got, plus they should have got bronze over FP/M at the 2002 Olympics.
     
  21. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I thought their 2002 OD was pretty bad too.
     
  22. prissycat

    prissycat New Member

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    Drobiazko & Vanagas should have beaten both B&K and the Italians at that event, so whether B&K should have beaten the Italians or not (and I agree they probably should have) still doesn't mean they deserved a medal. If there is anyway I would bump off the podium for B&K in 2002 it would be Lobacheva & Averubhk, the ridiculously overmarked near gold medalists. However while L&A aren't great, and their compulsory dances are terrible and were the most overscored of the Games, they did have a much better OD than B&K, and their free dance deserved to be ahead due to B&K's fall. So even at that probably no.

    As for deserving every medal they won, that is questionable. I would have given the bronze at the 99 worlds to L&A or D&V, since B&K had 2 significant mistakes in their FD there. There is no way they should have beaten A&P at the 1996 worlds. Not everyone agrees with their 2003 world title, and there are some who think D&V should have beaten them at the 2002 worlds (although they maybe should have beaten L&A there, and which order those 3 teams should have finished in is a hot debate).

    People are probably down on them since they see how much potential they had with their excellent basics and edges, and the talent they showed at times in footwork and expression, but it never came all together with good packaging until somewhat at the end when it was too late. Her posture is awful, the worst ever for a top level dancer, and they are sloppy many times in their unision and polish. Most of all they griped endlessly about judging when they often times were the ones held up and benefiting from protocol judging. They didn't even try to address their weaknesses until near the end, when it was almost too little too late.
     
  23. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

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    Agree 100 percent. They should've been higher at the 96 and 97 Worlds as well as the 98 Worlds and Olympics but were placed behind teams that skated with a lot less content. I'm mixed on the 1999 Worlds as a found their free dance a lot less ambitious than usual but I hated K&O's jungle dance (and it was nowhere near as difficult as many tried to claim it was). They finally won in 2000 but were ridiculously placed behind the Italians in 2001 and were almost beaten by L&A at the 2002 Olympics which was ridiculous.
     
  24. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

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    I also would've put Denkova & Staviski ahead of both B&K and F-P&M, even with Albena's twizzle error in the free dance.

    B&K's improvement between 1994 and 1995 was very evident but it stalled for them badly the next season and skated some pretty crappy programs with minimal content. They were much better in 1997 but the following season they skated crappy programs again with next to no content. Their material in 1999 was fantastic but they could never skate it at a high level. They were lucky to have won the bronze medal at Worlds with their clear errors.
     
  25. Terri

    Terri Well-Known Member

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    A tie between Torvill & Dean and Grischuk & Platov.
     
  26. daverobert

    daverobert New Member

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    Amazing to see Russians not even have someone in the top 3 in the poll when Russia is in history by far the most dominant dance country.
     
  27. coraczek

    coraczek Member

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    Klimova and Ponomarenko are in top 3.
     
  28. staceyliving

    staceyliving New Member

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    A shame to see T&D winning this poll. V&M in their primes would dominate prime T&D, like they dominated everyone of their own era.
     
  29. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    B&K's 2003 programs aren't my favorite, but if not them, who should have won? L&A's FD was horrible that year.
     
  30. seagulls

    seagulls New Member

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    There are many who would tell you Denkova & Stayviski were the best dance team at the 2003 worlds. (as well as 2004, 2006, 2007, the latter two which they atleast did win).