Best ever 2 times or more Ladies World Medalist (but no golds and no Olympic medals)?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Seerek, Jul 22, 2010.

Who's the best of these multiple world medalists (but no golds nor an Olympic medal)?

  1. Julie Lynn Holmes (1970, 1971)

    5 vote(s)
    4.5%
  2. Claudia Kristofics-Binder (1981, 1982)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Claudia Leistner (1983, 1989)

    1 vote(s)
    0.9%
  4. Tiffany Chin (1985, 1986)

    23 vote(s)
    20.5%
  5. Surya Bonaly (1993, 1994, 1995)

    34 vote(s)
    30.4%
  6. Fumie Suguri (2002, 2003, 2006)

    32 vote(s)
    28.6%
  7. Carolina Kostner (2005, 2008)

    14 vote(s)
    12.5%
  8. Other (please specify)

    3 vote(s)
    2.7%
  1. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    There are a select few who have multiple world medals but no golds, and also no Olympic medals. Who's the best?
     
  2. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    Tiffany Chin was the most talented of the group you listed, but she had only one really good year skating-wise in 1984.
     
  3. dawnie

    dawnie Active Member

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    Tiffany Chin without a doubt. Too bad injuries/muscle imbalance/crazy mom took her out of contention.

    Carolina Kostner is very lucky to have her two world medals. She beat Kwan for 2005 bronze by less than a point which was supposed to groom her for an Olympic medal at home. We all know how that one turned out. And don't even get me started on her 2008 silver.

    Fumie Suguri also got lucky with her world medals. She won her two bronzes because of Cohen's mistakes and an easy qualifying group in 2003. I guess she deserved her 2006 silver but benefited yet again from Cohen's mistakes. I'm not sure she would have even won over Kimmie had she been clean.
     
  4. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Jul 23, 2010
  5. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Errrr . . . Everybody in the field could count on Cohen's consistent mistakes . . . apparently over two Olympic cycles and two scoring systems. Judging Cohen on a total of individual elements did not benefit her anymore than judging her on an overall program.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2010
  6. shady82

    shady82 Active Member

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    Fumie's 2003 Worlds performances may not cut it in most cases for a medal. But Fumie didn't get lucky in 2002 because of Cohen's mistakes. At that time, Suguri was not necessarily an inferior skater to Cohen. If both went clean, Cohen would rank higher simply because of the judges' favor. Many even thought that Suguri should have the SP, over Slutskaya.
     
  7. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Agreed. Especially taking the programs into consideration, Suguri was clearly the better and more competitive skater in 2002. Too bad about the skate order at SLC (both sp and lp). I really would have Suguri beat Cohen in both programs and overall for 4th place.

    Both Cohen and Suguri made some mistakes in 2003. The whole uneven qualifying round situation didn't help but who is to say they would have skated the same in the lp if Suguri wasn't so much ahead in the medal race?

    Suguri skated better at Nationals and the Olympics than at Worlds in 2006, and if she had gotten either the flip combo or the sal she would have won. Even as it was I believe she should have higher PCS (compared to Meissner!!!) and won by default. If it were up to me I would probably have the lp ranking as Suguri, Meier, Sokolova, Meissner, Cohen.
     
  8. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    I don't recall Suguri's performance in the QR - What would you reckon would have been her placement had she been placed in Group A vs. Group B?
     
  9. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I don't remember either, but it couldn't have been better than Cohen who landed 7 triples. IIRC Suguri's all time best record was 6 triples.
     
  10. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Tiffany Chin IMO. She was a wonderful skater who could have won the 84 Olympics if figures had not existed. Too bad injuries and illness marred her career.

    Record wise, consistency, and longevity, it is Suguri, but having seen Suguri and Chin both skate at their best there is no way I would consider Fumie the "superior" skater. Chin had potential to be a World Champion and to beat any skater of her era (I know she never beat Witt but easily had potential to). Fumie did have either.
     
  11. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    With Worlds in Japan I think Fumie would have beaten Sasha at the 2002 Worlds even if Sasha had been close or atleast as close is she is even capable of. Sasha was overmarked at the Olympics in the U.S, benefiting from the home country advantage. It is laughable they were able to potray her as a gold medal contender in SLC with virtually no international pedigree at that point. Suguri had that advantage come Worlds in Japan. Sasha's LP at Worlds had 2 falls as her only mistakes and her marks were tech. 5.2-5.5, 5.5-5.7 presentation. Those werent going to be huge even had she gone clean. Sasha in 2002 wasnt that great yet, poorly choreographed Carmen with hardly any transitional moves, slow, weak stroking, ugly back in her death drop, even worse jumping technique. At the Goodwill Games on neutral ground that season when both skated a clean short and similar long (mistakes wise) Suguri dusted Cohen.

    As for the later occasions as bardtoob said as well every top skater of that era could count on Sasha's mistakes. Michelle, Irina, Shizuka, all did as well. She wasnt even capable of clean long programs really.

    That said I always thought of Fumie as sort of the best of the 2nd tier of that era, just a notch below the very best. She never once beat Michelle in how many years competing against her. I believe the only time she beat Irina was when she was just returning from her illness. She did often beat Cohen and Arakawa but ended up with a less glittered career overall than both.

    I also dont think she would have beaten Meissner at the 2006 Worlds even had she been clean, though if she were squeeky clean then it would have been close. If she did just one triple-triple she would have, but I have never seen her do one in competition.
     
  12. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    It is interesting all the votes for Bonaly. Yet Bonaly was only the 5th best skater (behind Baiul, Kerrigan, Sato, and Chen) of a period people keep saying was weak- 93 to 95. Like I said on another thread the field during that period was in fact extremely deep, it just lacked a dominant all timer leading the way.
     
  13. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    :rofl: Midori Ito 1986 Worlds :p and don't forget how she :rolleyes: destroyed Tonya Harding at 1986 Skate America . . .

    Tiffany got so much help from compulsory figures that it is ridiculous to even compare her to no political clout all free skating Fumie Suguri.

    -----------

    I wonder what would have happened if Tiffany Chin had competed in an all free skating format in 1986.

    Tiffany Chin (USA) - 1986 World Figure Skating Championships, Ladies' Long Program
    vs
    Midori Ito - 1986 World Championships Long Program
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2010
  14. Cheylana

    Cheylana Well-Known Member

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    On what basis was Bonaly fifth best? I'm not saying she wasn't, but it doesn't seem that cut and dry. Bonaly had some pretty good competitive results: 5-time European champion and 3 consecutive silver medals at Worlds (arguably being robbed of a gold medal at '93 Worlds). Her basics were not so great but she generally showed strong technical jumping content and pushed the envelope by attempting quads and triple-triples. I haven't voted yet, but I think there's a decent argument for saying she was the best of the bunch in this poll.
     
  15. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    Interesting how one's results in figures suddenly "improves" over time if you stick around long enough, Tiffany was 14th in compulsories at 1983 Worlds and 12th at 1984 Olympics.... then all of sudden is 2nd in 1985 Worlds and 4th in 1986 Worlds...

    FYI, Midori got 5th place the Long program at 1986 Worlds skating in the 3rd to last group (Tiffany was 4th in that segment).
     
  16. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Well, the judges had to leave room just in case the final group landed their 2A-3S, 3T-3T, 3F, 3Lp . . . and we all know that Midori's hand down on the 3Lz was as serious as Tiffany's hand down on the 3S.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2010
  17. CaptCrunch

    CaptCrunch New Member

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    Chin's best year was 84. After that she no longer had the jumps to be competitive for a world title. For me her SP at 84 Olympics is still a master class in skating.
     
  18. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    If you allow one time medallists with no golds and no Olympic medals, the answer is Tonya Harding.

    From the list given, Surya.
     
  19. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    :lol: :rollin:

    Interestingly, the judges could have dropped Tiffany as low as 7th in the long program and she would have still won the bronze only because Ivanova and Kondrashova skated even worse....

    The other placement people talk about from that segment was Thomas over Manley for 2nd place in the LP, which prevented Katarina Witt from being a 5 time World Champion....
     
  20. DarrellH

    DarrellH New Member

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    One time medalists? Kadavy :cool:
     
  21. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Chin had major injury (and personal) problems which wrecked her career and forced her into retirement before the 88 Olympics. She was already a shadow of her old self by 1986.

    When you look at Chin skate in 1984 she was a wonderful free skater. You say she was helped by figures by 86, but she was hurt by them in 1984. Had it not been for figures she would have won atleast silver at the Sarajevo Olympics. In 1984 and 1985 everyone thought she was a future World or/ and Olympic Champion but her injuries and crazy mom ruined her and allowed Thomas, Kadavy, and eventually Trenary to all sweep past her in the U.S.

    Suguri is good but nobody ever really believed she had the potential to be a World Champion. And she wasnt good enough to ever beat some top skaters of her own era. Like I said she never beat Kwan in a decade competing together, and I believe her only ever time beating Irina was the 2004 Worlds which was Irina's first event back from a major illness (and even then only by one placing).
     
  22. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I said she was ultimately only 5th best of 93-94 because Baiul, Kerrigan, Sato, and Chen all won either a World title or Olympic medal those 2 years. Bonaly did not do either. Thus the others were IMO more successful during this time.
     
  23. dawnie

    dawnie Active Member

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    I agree. Suguri achieved a lot for IMO, a second-tier skater. I honestly don't see how she's any better than say, Sarah Meier who has no world medals.
     
  24. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Compare their skating skills and choreography in 2002, and that's the difference. I also felt she gave the best performance in the SP portion of the 2006 Olympics...too bad her elements weren't as strong as the top 3.
     
  25. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Fumie peaked during the 2002 Olympic Cycle, and, sure, she never beat Michelle Kwan or Irina Slutskaya, but that is like saying she never beat two Katarina Witts performing at the same competition.

    It is as clear as day to me when I watch Fumie's 2002 Worlds performances that she deserved to be top tier and on the podium because she earned it. Furthermore, she has as many World Medals as Cohen and has 3 straight National titles (2001-2003), which she earned by beating Shizuka Arakawa, Miki Ando, and Yoshie Onda at the same competitions.

    As for "anyone" expecting her to win Worlds, I do not think anybody expected any skater except an American or European to win Worlds during that era. She was the first Japanese World Medalist since Yuka Sato, then followed it up with another World Medal the next year. As for the 2002 Olympics, she should have been higher than both Sarah Hughes and Sasha Cohen in the SP and placed better than 5th.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2010
  26. Fallcolor

    Fallcolor New Member

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    Imma go with Tiffany Chin and Fumie Suguri. :p

    Chin for her actual skills and capability that could match the top skaters, and Suguri for the instances where i thought she got unlucky either because she had to compete/get beaten by skaters of the same calibre (Cohen in 02 and 03) or possible unlucky skate order (02 SLC LP). She must have gotten lost in the shuffle in 2002 SLC- imo she should have replaced Hughes or Sebestyen for to top the final flight. Didn't she also skate really early in the second last group as well? more unfortunate for her.

    But IMO Suguri’s best performance was 2005 4cc, where if she had duplicated those two performances at 2005 worlds, would easily have won a medal, maybe silver.
     
  27. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Oh I know. I wish she had saved those two programs for the 2006 Olympics. Suguri still has my favorite Carmen program for any ladies skater.
     
  28. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    True but a skater who couldnt beat Witt atleast once who wasnt hampered by an obvious unique disadvantage (eg- Ito in figures) or who couldnt atleast beat her in a free skate (eg- Manley) I would consider at best a top 2nd tier skater of the Witt era too. That is how I would term Kadavy (though I love her skating), Trenary, Leistner, Ivanova, and maybe Kondrashova during the Witt era in the mid 80s too for example, with Kadavy and Trenary the cream of the 2nd tier.

    I agree she skated beautifully there and fully earned her medal, as well as her other 2 World medals. Still an event like this shows even at her best she was being lapped by Kwan and Slutskaya. Skaters like Cohen, Arakawa, and even Hughes (if only via her consistency and cheated triple-triples under 6.0) were atleast able to mount a challenge and both one or both on occasion. Even Butyrskaya was able to in fact, and Maria also stayed in front of Fumie in the rankings until the very end of her final season, now aged 29. Neither Maria or Fumie were politically in favor at all really, but Maria had the advantage of being a former World Champion.

    True but Cohen has the Olympic silver which is a huge achievement and edge. If you removed 2 events from Shizuka's career she would pale in comparision to Elena Liashenko, but those 2 events- a World and Olympic Gold, set her career to a whole different level, and even a higher level than Fumie's much more consistent career (and even Sasha's for that matter).

    I agree, the American women were all overmarked in SLC IMO. Home court advantage which is typical in the sport. She definitely should have beaten Sasha, I would say perhaps in both programs but for sure in the long and overall. Still it is hard to say she deserved a medal over any of the 3 medalists there.

    And it is possible nobody expected a Japanese women to win Worlds during this era but Shizuka still won Worlds and the Olympics. Actually after winning Worlds I think Shizuka was considered a contender for gold at the 2005 Worlds and 2006 Olympics. I dont think Fumie was ever considered a gold contender at Worlds, just a medal contender. Is there any year that people went into Worlds saying they thought Fumie even had a shot of winning?
     
  29. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I agree she would have won silver at the 2005 Worlds with her 4cc's performances. And given the strength of the field that year it would have actually elevated her career quite a bit overall. She now would have convincingly beaten Kwan at a big event, and beaten a prime Cohen with Sasha staying on her feet. She also might have gotten more clout going into the 2006 Games had she done this, and the Japanese federation might well now have favored her over Shizuka who was a lowly 9th at the 2005 Worlds.
     
  30. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    KOSTNER! :encore: duh