Back in 94 did you expect Baiul would dominate the sport for years to come

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by hertmirsh, Jul 28, 2014.

  1. birchchirp

    birchchirp New Member

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    Yes Yuka winning those Olympics would have been the ISU's worst nightmare. It would be the worst thing for Sato too as the pro skating boom which she rode so well as a much better and more popular skater than she ever was an amateur, would have been punctured by a Sato victory. Their only one worse would be Harding winning. I guess Bonaly winning perhaps too, but from a marketability standpoint Bonaly would actually be a good winner, but the purist snobs in the ISU hate her so much they wouldn't care. Baiul was probably the 2nd best outcome after Kerrigan winning.
     
  2. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    You mean the purist snobs who thought the ability to use her edges ought to count for something?

    There obviously was a real split in ISU officialdom re Bonaly. The European judges seemed willing to give her that title, but once the judges from the rest of the World were added to the panel, they just could not countenance the idea of a champion with such weak basic skills, all those big jumps notwithstanding. Bonaly really worked to improve her basics over the next couple years (and actually had improved some between 92 and 94) but she did still tend to telegraph those jumps and her choreo was usually pretty awful. (To my taste, that was a common issue with French skaters, except for Candeloro.)

    IMO, Baiul winning was actually the best outcome for the ISU, even more so than Kerrigan. Kerrigan's skating was technically very clean, but she was workmanlike. The US may have been happy with her win, but the rest of the world would have been rather ho-hum. Baiul could capture people all over the world, including the US.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2014
  3. Fiero425

    Fiero425 Member

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    Like Bonaly was the only skater in history with deficiencies; PLEASE spare us all! The ISU and all concerned with skating have an abysmal history and reputation that not even a new scoring system has repair, fixed, or given confidence in to this day! It's sad that such a beautiful sport can be so corrupt!
     
  4. OliviaPug

    OliviaPug Well-Known Member

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    True, but being unable to use your edges properly in figure skating is THE deficiency. The whole point of the "figure" in "figure skating" is about edges. Surya was entertaining and athletic, I'll give her that, but she was no figure skater -- not according to the rules at the time or the rules today. She did improve -- barely. Everything she did was muscled, two-footed skating, and on the flat. Her line was fairly atrocious as well, bent legs and all. Still, she was interesting and good for the sport -- even when she behaved badly.

    I can think of another skater who could do some impressive jumps, but had horrific technique, made an initial splash, but didn't last. And she was Russian. (Ludmila Nelidina)

    O-
     
  5. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

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    I remember Nelidina. I remember her doing a really nice triple axel at Skate America but the rest of her skating was laughably bad.
     
  6. Jaana

    Jaana Well-Known Member

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    I did not expect Baiul dominating the sport, as I have never been interested in somebody dominating some sport... I just loved her skating!!!
     
  7. escaflowne9282

    escaflowne9282 Well-Known Member

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    This musical was utterly abysmal to begin with, but Kerrigan's performance just brings the entire level down even more :scream: Her arm movements at the beginning and middle were just :confused:
     
  8. escaflowne9282

    escaflowne9282 Well-Known Member

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    This post is making me have a Sybil moment, and now I'm trying to remember what I was doing yesterday at 8:33PM
     
  9. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I think we need to remember that in 1994, they were only 4 years from elimination of the compulsory figures. Even though no longer a separate phase, the prevailing sentiment was that those skills were still to be evaluated as part of the two remaining phases. In other words, elimination of compulsories was not supposed to mean edge control was no longer valued or necessary. Even several years later, this same weakness cost Miki Ando in her early career as well.

    I do disagree though about how much Bonaly improved in this area. IMO by the end of her competitive career, her edges were notably improved. Maybe she still wasn't one of the best in that area, but to me she no longer stood out as especially weaker than the rest of the field.
     
  10. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I agree that Nancy's appeal was pretty much exclusively only the US, outside of the Olympics and people cheering her on due to the Harding story. However guess what, the pro skating world then was only U.S based as well (and a bit of Canada).
     
  11. Fiero425

    Fiero425 Member

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    Her rotten attitude, spoiled persona, and hooking up with her married agent didn't help! No one likes a home wrecker! lol! :lol: For someone so highly regarded, she had the weakest career now that I look at it; the Bronze and Silver Olympic medals her main highlight and not much else! Really weak!
     
  12. my little pony

    my little pony snarking for AZE

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    one day the scotsvolds will do an interview where they admit that they were punking her with most of her choreography. i havent seen so many stiff straight up arm choreo since i had to go to physical therapy for my rotator cuff.
     
  13. alchemy void

    alchemy void it's time for the perkolator

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    :rofl: Really horrible music. Choreo is so stiff, big, and bad (...that's what she said?) , it's almost voidy. Almost.
     
  14. jenniferlyon

    jenniferlyon Well-Known Member

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    I never expected Oksana-- or Tara, for that matter-- to remain eligible after they won their OGMs. All the money and opportunities at that time were in the pro skating world. Skaters in the 1980s and 1990s generally didn't remain eligible after they won Olympic gold. Katarina Witt did because it was her only ticket out of East Germany. But if she had been free to make her own decisions in 1984, I expect she would have turned pro also.

    Of course, several skaters from the 1980s and early 1990s reinstated and competed in Lillehammer. But aside from Gordeeva and Grinkov, most of them were not happy with the results. None of them stuck around to compete at Worlds, either.
     
  15. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I agree looking back it makes sense these skaters would not stay in after winning their OGM and that almost nobody does. Yu Na Kim is one of the only singles skaters in recent memory to, and even she only competed part time and at 10% of the competitions until her retirement 4 years later. Yagudin tried but blew out his hip. Plushenko sort of continued but barely competed over the next 8 years, in fact didn't compete once between the 2006 Olympics and fall 2009 not sure I even count that as continuing, just coming back for the Olympics.

    It seems it took awhile for people to get that though. I remember when Kristi went pro after 92 everyone was stunned. Everyone assumed she would go for 1994, especialy to pick up a seemingly easy 2nd Olympic gold. And she was 20, not 16 like many of the others. Then again this was before the pro skating boom hit.
     
  16. viennese

    viennese Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. I expect that Baiul, with her expressive artistic skating, would turn pro and be part of an international ice ballet company, or that she'd be skating in various shows.
     
  17. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    From World War II to Yamaguchi's unique opportunity to win two Olympic Gold Medals within three seasons.

    • 1948: Scott, retired
    • 1952: Altwegg, retired
    • 1956: Albright, retired
    • 1960: Heiss, retired
    • 1964: Dijkstra, retired
    • 1968: Fleming, retired
    • 1972: Schuba, retired
    • 1976: Hamill, retired
    • 1980: Pötzsch, retired
    • 1984: Witt, wanted to retire and go pro but couldn't
    • 1988: Witt, retired
    • 1992: Yamaguchi, retired
    Enough said.
     
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  18. clairecloutier

    clairecloutier Well-Known Member

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    At the moment Oksana won the Olympics, I expected her to turn pro. No, I did not expect her to dominate eligible competition, even if she had stayed in. Because, like Louis pointed out, the weaknesses in both her skating and her personality as a competitor were already becoming evident. Her jumps weren't solid. The long program that seemed fresh in 1993 looked flimsy & childish in 1994. The short program was eye-catching, yet at the same time she relied too much on artistry, attitude, and charisma; there wasn't a strong technical foundation. Her tendency toward histrionics and melodrama was becoming clear, too. Already that year, I looked at the young Michelle Kwan, with her solid jumps, innate ability to reach the audience, and calm demeanor as a competitor, and it seemed likely that Michelle and not Oksana might dominate the next four years. If Oksana had even stayed in. But I never thought she would, because with her background, she obviously needed the money to be made from pro events.
     
  19. leesaleesa

    leesaleesa Active Member

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    Here's a real headscratcher:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBXiklnaeJA

    I know that when I'm feeling angsty and self indulgent, it all begins with dressing like a clown, mugging creepily, then finishing it off by donning a sparkly beige t shirt and no bra to perform to Carmina Burana.

    Scott Hamilton is a complete idiot when he speaks of her. She was embarrassing to watch, yet he slathered on the praise. Balletic? Not with that back and labored movement at the hip. It's shocking that she was even paid for the dreck she produced for most of her career.
     
  20. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I do think skaters finally being allowed to make make money, the ISU creating fluff events and competitions for skaters to make money, ISU giving prize money at legit competitions, and federation-sanctioned tours (when they were still in demand) all essentially allowing a skater to have a paid career with Olympic-eligible skating did a lot to keep people going too, even if it really only helped the big names.
     
  21. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    There actually were federation sanctioned tours in the 80s, they just didn't pay the eligible skaters much. In the US, the post-season tour that became COI (sometimes referred to by skaters as the ISU tour) was sanctioned by the ISU and the various skaters' federations. I don't remember exactly how it worked earlier, but I clearly recall the 1988 tour. After that one, they needed to pay a lot more if they wanted to keep Boitano & Witt, creating a huge disparity between what they were paid and what the eligible skaters got.

    I think it may have been after 98 that the tours started paying better for the non-pros.
     
  22. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I thought skaters, like all Olympic-eligible athletes, were not able to be paid for participating in their sports until the IOC changed the rules.

    ETA: I just did a quick search and it looks like it was a gradual change that started around 1984 or so. The IOC left it up to individual sport federations to determine whether they would allow their athletes to make money while competing. I don't know when the ISU decided that it was ok for skaters to make money off of tours and commercials and such. It seems like most people cite the 1992 basketball Dream Team as the final sign that everything changed forever and pros were here to stay.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2014
  23. prissycat

    prissycat New Member

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    To even be a contender for the 1998 gold Baiul would probably need at minimum 7 triples, 2 triple lutzes, and a triple lutz-double toe combination in both programs. That would be a big jump from what she was doing at her peak, struggling to stand up 5 triples with no combinations, and never attempting 2 triple lutzes, two footing some jumps. So she would have to endure a growth spurt and terrible knee injury to not only maintain but greatly up her technical content.
     
  24. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    I think it was in the mid-2000s when all the "eligibles" started to be able to earn money, or maybe closer to the early 2000s rather than middle.
     
  25. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I think it came earlier than that. Even before the ISU added prize money, the USFS used to enter into contract arrangements with its top skaters, which usually involved a couple cheese fests and some off-ice promotional activitities. They also were approving larger fees for tours and shows. Kwan, for example, was able to make piles of money long before the mid 2000s.
     
  26. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    And even before the athletes could be paid directly, some federations let them be paid for skating-related events - like appearing at skating clubs' end of year shows - but the money had to go into a training fund which they could draw on to pay expenses.
     
  27. jenniferlyon

    jenniferlyon Well-Known Member

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    Then again, if Oksana had remained eligible, she would have been able to take time off to recover from the knee injury. She could have dropped out of Skate America or whatever international events had been assigned to her for the 1994-95 season. If she was still injured at the time of the Ukraine Nationals, I'm sure they would have given her a bye to Worlds. She also could have skipped Europeans. But as a pro, she couldn't skip anything. And she didn't. That kid worked non-stop.
     
  28. ChelleC

    ChelleC Well-Known Member

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    It was worth watching that trainwreck for Yagudin's reaction. His reaction said it all.
     
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  29. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I remember back in December 1994, commentators from Eurosport France said Oksana Baiul was preparing for 1995 Euros...
    Well, they looked really well informed ! :rolleyes:
    Anyway, I didn't expect her to win 1994 Olympics, and didn't really expect her to win another title. ;)
     
  30. Latte

    Latte Well-Known Member

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    I think she seemed drunk in that video.