Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by lala, Mar 25, 2013.
Chilly too... the only way I know its spring is that my garden is full of weeds!
Let's face it though, subjectivity is the reason why we feel such a strong emotional connection to figure skating and the skaters themselves. Making a subjectively-leaning sport more objective is a balancing act. If you have make a move towards too much objectivity, it will lose its original soul and become something totally different. That may be a good thing, but it might not be. Gymnastics is still going through rough times and are constantly changing the rules and scoring system to make it more appealing and aesthetically-pleasing like its golden era. However, there's always something unsatisfying or incomplete about the "improvements."
I want more subjectivity, too as long as it agrees with my subjectivity ; otherwise,
Let me show you how absurd your position is.
Is this...that...rationality thing I have been hearing about? HOW DID IT GET IN THE TRASH CAN!!!???
With your moniker (not to mention your casually innocent thread title provocation) maybe you'd have more success.
Hey, what about just like on DWTS, the audience gets to decide who wins!
Isnt that what this thread is trying to do?
Because this thread title belongs to Trash Can.
But my subjectivity is very objective! It's based on what and who I like.
I WANT MORE RATIONALITY!!!!
In purple, bold, italic, shouty font!
Perhaps, in your rational judgment. In any case, results are always hashed and rehashed on skating forums.
Denis and his coach seem quite happy with the silver medal.
The folks who mounted a protest of the men's results, however futile, had the right to make their voices heard. To believe otherwise is, dare I say, irrational and refutable.
I believe they've heard these folks' voices, and they've made a rational decision by not honoring their irrational outcry, and not changing the system much for the Olympic season.
One thing I think gymnastics does well that I think figure skating sort of falters on is that the ISU can or have changed the rules mid-Olympic cycle whereas the FIG (gymnastics international federation) doesn't implement any major changes to the way they score elements or create deductions on technique and execution until after the Olympics. I think if the ISU wants to fix technique problems or create scoring changes to promote a certain "look" or "philosophy" they should do it after the nearest Olympics but make it known early on that they are planning these changes. That way skaters who were brought up one system where certain things were overlooked (like flutzing or over rotations) before an Olympic cycle don't become a problem for a skater mid-cycle. However, by letting it be known that they are implementing these changes to improve skating, the younger generations or even veterans can know early on what things they need to work on to better prepare themselves for the next cycle.
However, that does sort of create a mentality that the Olympics are the be-all to end-all, and I've always argued that Worlds (though maybe not as lucrative or prestigious as an Olympics) are an incredibly important competition that decides who is the best skater that season (akin to a NBA championship or even Super Bowl). Thus, theoretically, why couldn't the ISU make a change whenever they want to since Worlds happens every year?
I too want more Rationality.......I love it when it produces such rational results!
Have faith. Aren't humans the most rational of all animals?
Yes, when they are asleep!
Because Worlds happens every year.
Because they stop thinking and talking??
Monica Friedlander's latest - "Petition Protesting Skating Results Sent to Top Officials" (June 3): http://www.examiner.com/article/petition-protesting-skating-results-sent-to-top-officials
I think it's wonderful to see Kerry Leitch, Tai Babilonia, Debi Thomas, Tim Wood, and Sjoukje Dijkstra all having signed this and I am happy to have signed as well. I am safely skeptical about the result (as with any outcome under Cinquanta's judgement), but we shall see. I think it's going to have to take the same thing happening on an Olympic stage with a lot more eyes watching for things to really hit the fan.
Kanadians, Skate Canada, Chan
N_Halifax, Debi Thomas, Tai Babilonia, Tim Wood Cinquanta and ISU
Frank Carroll was asked about the controversy in The Skating Lesson interview. He didn't comment on Patrick, but he said he thought the flaw with the IJS was that the judge's don't score the PCS correctly. He said at Worlds he just enjoyed the moment, but when he got back to the rink and examined Denis' scores, he noticed that his PCS was significantly higher in the long program than in the short program. Carroll didn't feel that a skater's basic skating changes that much in 2 days, and it was not just one or two judges who scored this way, it was across the board.
This is the same thing skaters complained about with figures scoring. How could a skater go up or down 7 placements in a period of a month or less?
And people thought all Canadians are biased towards Patrick! There are so many Canadians who want to see Patrick humiliated and insulted hiding behind the name of being objective, and they would be applauded to sky high. But if you are a Canadian and praised Patrick, you'd be labelled too subjective and biased to see what kind of lousy skater Patrick is. The hypocrisy of some people.
Not that hard to have a bad day in figures. One shaky turn can ruin a figure. If your nervous at all, you could easily blow it.
The SS mark doesn't assess the skater's basic overall skating skills, or the skills they are theoretically capable of...it assesses their skating skills as shown for that particular skate, of that particular program. This is why the SS mark can change for the same program from skate to skate. A skater can skate with more/less confidence/sureness, with shakier or more secure edges, with better/worse speed and flow on any given day. Additionally, the choreography can highlight the skaters' strengths or weaknesses, making their skating skills look better or worse than they actually are. Thus, the SS mark can, and should, fluctuate based on the given performance.
What goes around will come around some day! Today is Chan and Kanadians. Wonder who's next in 2014 and beyond.
It's like a trend. One day a federation is the target of such broad-based conspiracy accusations, even if fans of skaters of that federation had been the perpetuators of such accusations against other federations before.
We have many examples. It's only dependent on which federation actually wins. I still find the North American in Ice Dance conspiracy debate entertaining after reading years-worth if posts about how there wasn't a conspiracy in Ice Dance from some and how there was a Russian/Eastern-Euro bias from others. The debate is the same but the players have switched sides.
I am shocked. I agree with Frank Carroll about something.
In theory maybe. The PCS in general and the SS in this example are supposed to be based what happens on the day, but in practice they are greatly influenced by what a skater has done in the past and how the judges view them in general. Not to mention, often PCS will actually go up for poorer skates, maybe because the judges use it to prop up skaters they like who didn't deliver on the TES. Also, I do think that SS is the component most likely to remain stable - things like IN and P&E are much more contingent on how a skater performs on the day.
I don't see the point of this petition. I don't think Denis Ten should get a second gold medal. I do think that the ISU needs to take a good look at how the judging and scoring currently work, and maybe do a bit more than the usual tinkering once the Olympic season is over.
ITA on all of that! Especialy the last paragraph.
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