Award a Gold Medal to Denis Ten for his Performance at the 2013 World Figure Skating

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by lala, Mar 25, 2013.

  1. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Yeah, but still as a newbie, without the political backing of a powerful fed in home country, no matter how good Osmond was in the sp at her first Worlds, she wouldn't have been scored so highly especially in the components. Lots to admire about Osmond and she acquitted herself well. The main things holding her back in London that politicking couldn't overcome was experience and maturity. Without the fp mistakes, Osmond in 4th at least, especially in London venue.

    I don't see anything at all "plastic" about Ashley Wagner. To each their own. I think Ashley could soften her arms, and obviously make sure she's fit and strong for battle next season (strategically, mentally, in all ways). Sometimes its better to skate with caution than it is to go all out and come unraveled. At this point, I doubt any criticisms are gonna make the U.S. ladies feel down in the dumps.
     
  2. zerom10

    zerom10 New Member

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    As long as Plushenko will win in Sichi 2014 with four mistakes I won't sing this petition. Fair play.:hat1:
     
  3. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Well then you might as well sign the petition right now, as no chance on any planet that is happening.
     
  4. made_in_canada

    made_in_canada INTJ

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    Apologies if I missed a response to this question up thread. Carolina's choreography is on a whole different level of intricacy and detail than Osmond's. Bolero is a phenomenal piece of choreography.
     
  5. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    Yu Na Kim set a World record in her first worlds, without being from a powerful federation, without skating from her home country. Osmond's component score was 8th overall. I can't quite tell if you're arguing that her score would have been unfairly lower if she wasn't from a powerful federation or if her score was unfairly too high because she is. But I think her component score was certainly fair for what she did in the short program.

    made_in_Canada, I'd be curious if you could articulate your point more. I do undeniably prefer Kostner's "Bolero" to Osmond's "Carmen" but I think Osmond's technical choreography is really quite excellent (technical meaning layout of elements, transitions, etc). I respond to Kostner's maturity of interpretation and amazing skating skills, but she also has more stop-and-pose moments (though I don't even dislike those, she does them so well and as emotional fulcrum points).
     
  6. made_in_canada

    made_in_canada INTJ

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    Well, going by my memory (I haven't re-watched either program since worlds), Carolina uses the nuances of the music in a way that no other woman does. I know what you mean by the "stop and pose" moments but she's actually still doing quite a bit in those moments as well. It never seems like a stop and breathe moment, if that makes sense. I also see a lot more originality and purpose in Carolina's choreography, it's very complete in that there aren't any wasted movements and her entire body is communicating. There's also a lot of subtlety in her choreography and that's a very difficult thing to do well. You're right that Osmond does have technically sound choreography and given some time I expect she'll develop that side of her skating quite a bit more. I just find that right now in direct comparison to Kostner it's a lot more raw and is lacking some of the refinement of Kostner.

    Hopefully that makes sense ;)
     
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  7. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I agree about Osmond. Home country had nothing to do with placement. What I saw in her is a skater with the goods to go all the way (she reminds me so much of Rochette in her character and presentation) but it is not quite there yet. Give it a couple of years she has the potential to be something very special. It wasn't quite there are this event.
     
  8. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    You mean you DON't agree about Osmond ;) She also reminds me of Rochette in the power and strong carriage that she has. Although she appears to be much more of an extrovert. I love both skaters.

    I still don't understand why so many think Osmond was overmarked in her SP. Like some already pointed out, her PCS was only 8th highest, and her TR score was ridiculously low for skating probably one of the most choreographically complex (from a technical POV) programs delivered by a lady. To me she was UNDERmarked in her PCS. I don't know how people can disagree with her GOE on the jumps either.

    And seriously, people are still buying the power of Eville Canadian Bloc conspiracy/Canadian home ice advantage after V/M losing two major competitions to D/W now on the home ice, despite being THE stars of Skate Canada? :rofl:
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2013
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  9. algonquin

    algonquin Well-Known Member

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    That was part of the conspiracy you know, V/M were sold out for Chan's gold.
     
  10. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    :lynch: Canada Federation. How could you sold out V&M for that Chan! :D

    Poor skaters. In reality, they are all sh#t. Without their Federations, they would not have won anything at all.
     
  11. sadya

    sadya Active Member

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    I did sign this petition, not because I agree with all arguments in it, but because I hope that it might prompt the ISU to change the rules so a person with multiple falls can't beat someone with a cleaner performance when they're ranked 1-2 after the sp. I do think Chan's win was right in this competition because the rules allowed it as many have explained. Some very informative articles about this issue can be found here, amongst them more sugggestions to develop better judging criteria:

    http://www.examiner.com/article/opining-on-worlds-the-plight-and-misuse-of-program-components
    [Opining on Worlds: The plight and misuse of program components]

    http://www.examiner.com/article/opi...ty-and-sterility-of-tape-delay-what-about-tes
    [perhaps a bit off-topic for this thread; Opining on Worlds: The sanity/sterility of tape delay, what about TES?]

    http://www.flutzingaround.com/2013_03_10_archive.html
    [What a Great Mens Championship at 2013 Worlds]

    http://www.flutzingaround.com/2013/03/even-more-analyzing-chan-and-ijs.html
    [even more analyzing chan and ijs]

    http://www.flutzingaround.com/2013/03/another-thought-to-consider-re-pcs-vs.html
    [Another Thought to Consider RE: PCS vs. TES]
     
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  12. falling_dance

    falling_dance ToT Thread For Sale

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    This.
     
  13. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    Because she is from CA NA DA! All Canadians are overmarked because Canadian Federation is :EVILLE: :biggrinbo
     
  14. Skater91

    Skater91 New Member

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    Chan won, get over it!

    This thread should be closed already.
     
  15. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the links, sadya. Those are quite interesting analyses but I am not sure I feel more enlightened now after reading them than I was before about how the rules should be changed to better reflect what the skaters put out on the ice.

    For instance, examiner says:

    Apparently, examiner believes that the judges don't necessarily mark what's on th ice but that the marking has a lot to do with reputation and starting order. How should the scoring system be designed to prevent this from happening?

    I have to agree that Chan's marks for PE and IN feel wrong when you compare them with Ten's but if we think that Chan would most likely have scored somewhere in the mid-nineties on the PC mark for a clean free skate, maybe a loss of around 6 points in all was enough punishment in the minds of the judges for the mistakes he made?

    Which brings me to flutzingaround:

    Assuming Chan would have scored above 99 in the SP with a better executed 4/3 combination and 3A, the two skaters wouldn't have tied overall and Chan would still have won, I guess. Would Chan's win due to an even larger SP margin have been less controversial than it is? Because the whole outcry seems to come down to you can't win with falls to a skater who skated cleanly.

    I personally am in favor of a more severe deduction for falls but this deduction would have to be applied to all the skaters at every competition and I'm afraid we don't live in an ideal figure skating world where Patrick Chan is the only one falling, so I don't know how much support a change in the rules to punish falls more harshly would find among the ISU officials and within national federations.;)
     
  16. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    I don't know if you even read many of the posts. I don't see Chan hatred here. What I am seeing is protest against the current judging system, and judges holding up skaters with reputation, regardless of how they skate. Many of us actually love the way Chan moves across the ice, with attention to detail, but when he skates poorly it needs to reflect in the marks. Part of the problem is the system itself, but there is also a part that allows well reputed skaters to get away with mistakes. Chan is not the only beneficiary of this. I had expressed my protest when V&T won despite some major errors earlier this season (can't remember if it was GPF or one of the GPs). Clearly some improvements to the judging system is needed, but the general tendency of FS judges to be generous with top skaters when they skate poorly needs to change. It's a whole cultural change for the sport.
     
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  17. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    It was on the GPF
     
  18. sadya

    sadya Active Member

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    Various people have commented throughout the years how judges don't always mark what they see before them and how difficult it is to judge about 25-40 skaters in one competition, how which group a skater is makes more different for the marks than what is actually shown on the ice, etc. Some people, including one of the Dutch Eurosport commentators, call it the 'psychology of judging' . I still remember discussions about marks related to the skating position in a certain group from the '90s with the old judging system, that human element is still here in the new judging system and as it is us humans judging, I wonder if it could ever really be solved. Better training for the judges about these issues might help.
     
  19. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I do think most judges try in good faith to judge what they see just as many knowledgeable skating fans do. I think people don't realize what an endurance test it really is to judge all those skaters and hold one's concentration. Also, when one is comparing skaters to one another (yes I know COP has tried to solve that problem) one can't help but give a high quality skater higher scores in some respect just because the difference in quality is much more apparent when compared to a skater who isn't as high quality. Look at the record-breaking V/T Worlds performance for a beautifully executed performance when the night for the most part was disappointing or Ten's higher-than-usual PCS at Worlds LP.
     
  20. manleywoman

    manleywoman podcast mistress

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    And I wish everyone would read these. I've read more than a few comments here and elsewhere complaining about the results, but offering no actual solutions. I respect these guys a lot for offering an analysis of the event without resulting to bitching and whining about how our sport is going downhill.

    ETA: I don't disagree that it sucks that a skater who falls multiple times can win over another skater.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2013
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  21. sequins

    sequins Active Member

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    Just checked to see how they're doing in their bid to reach 10,000. 770? Doesn't look promising. Why didn't they just have a petition to ask them to make changes to the judging system? Certainly would've been a more successful petition I'm sure. What does simply awarding another gold medal solve? Nothing. Makes everyone feel 'all better' until the next time it happens. Also if you're gonna have a petition like this you shouldn't allow comments from people. LOL Some of them are hilarious. I like the one from Japan who also thinks Mao should be given the gold too.:lol: Yes and I'd like the 8th place dance team and the 15th place pairs team all moved up 3 spots, and the 6th place skater on the mens and womens side moved down 2 spots because that's what I think should've happened.Where do I sign?
     
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  22. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    The whole problem is the current mostly stupid judging system which produces results like this, was a knee jerk reaction from a wrong and media created 2nd gold medal 11 years ago in the first place. So on that I will agree, it is not a proper solution, and it only led to disaester and a system that led to further decline of the sport last time it happened. Figure skating is not a decathalon, the overall impression has always been hugely imporant. Results cant be arrived at accurately simply by tabulating points, and it just leaves about 30 places for judges to cheat or favor their favorites rather than 2 sets of marks to do so like before anyway.
     
  23. SGrand

    SGrand Member

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    Amen!
     
  24. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    The IOC awarded the second gold medal, not the media.
     
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  25. bbkenn

    bbkenn Well-Known Member

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    Thank you.
     
  26. bbkenn

    bbkenn Well-Known Member

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    This^^^
     
  27. bbkenn

    bbkenn Well-Known Member

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    Excellent post
     
  28. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ I agree that no skater should be attacked and mocked. Shame that it happens to skaters all the time on FSU and on other skating forums, eh?

    The judging system is not the skaters' fault. This whole experience of winning multiple times for less than stellar performances has certainly been a conundrum for Patrick, and an unfortunate series of events for a remarkable skater who works very hard and should be able to enjoy his victories, not have to defend them. The fault lies squarely with the ISU and with the judging system and the judges. It's a problem to continually send a skater the message that they are exceptional enough to win consistently with major errors, simply because of above-average SS. The sport needs to appreciate that all skaters should practice figures if they have a hope of being as good as Patrick Chan is with his blades. But the main problem is over-rewarding some skaters, and under-rewarding others: i.e., inconsistent judging.

    I think Patrick seems to have a personality where he is not allowing his debatable wins and people's reactions to bother him too much negatively, but who knows? Is Worlds 2013 the straw that breaks the camel's back? Certainly, Patrick hasn't allowed the cruel belittling stuff his fans and critics have said all season long about Kathy Johnson to deter him from his decision to retain her as his coach, at least so far.


    In addition, I think it would be helpful for every skater to take dance and movement classes. I was frankly appalled by some of the performances of the lesser known skaters in the men's event. It just seems that there was a lot of sloppy/ nonexistent technique and lack of body awareness going on. Part of the problem appears to be the overly regimented IJS requirements as to why some of these skaters seemed to be taking on more than they could handle.

    The unevenness of the judging was very apparent in general and particularly among those early groups in the men's event. Someone like Christopher Caluza who was placed last in the sp!? Sure he made costly technical errors, but his overall refinement and SS were way above so many of the guys placed in front of him. Chris was dealt with extremely harshly -- perhaps his early skate order hurt him. But even though Ross Miner skated last in the last sp group, he was also low-balled with his scores, especially in comparison to mistakes made by skaters he's better than overall and/ or comparable with who were placed ahead of him in the sp. The problem is a judging system based on picking apart and throwing numbers at all the branches, bark and leaves on particular trees, rather than understanding and nourishing the roots and soil which allow the trees to grow, and rather than actually seeing and appreciating the forest of a whole performance.

    I certainly can understand kittysk8ts desire to give Patrick a hug. For me, the skaters I'd most like to give a hug and words of encouragement are Christopher Caluza, Paul Bonifacio Parkinson, Tomas Verner, Dai Takahashi, and Ross Miner. And I'd love to give a pat on the back and congrats to Denis Ten, to Javier Fernandez, to Max Aaron, to Brian Joubert, to Misha Ge, and to Patrick Chan for his sp.
     
  29. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    There's no doubt that Osmond is good, and she has the IT factor -- something that can't be taught. Still, it helped for her to be skating in home country to a degree.* She deserved a good placement in the sp, but as a newbie without backing whether from a strong fed or as in Yu Na's case, without strong early buzz and achievements as a junior, it's difficult to get high scores in a Worlds debut. Certainly luck, skate order, and actual performance quality are factors, but politics does play a role. Yu Na had much more high visibility and buzz well before she came on the senior scene than Osmond had. The level of Osmond buzz pretty much started once this season began, even though she was highly regarded before then by those in the know who were aware of her.

    If Worlds had taken place in Japan, the venue being different might have affected the skaters differently and as well, the judging would have been slightly different, IMO. Same, if it had taken place in Russia (perhaps the baby ballerinas would have done better -- certainly the judging would have been more favorable). I'm not saying fixed results, but just the goings-on in terms of behind-the-scenes politicking which involves buzz and who says what to the judges, and what various federations say to their representatives on the technical and judging panels. And also of course, how skaters are viewed in terms of reputation/ recent results coming into the competition, and how they perform in practices.


    ETA:
    * I'm not suggesting anything to do with collusion or conspiracy, just having an edge re skating in home country, which clearly has historically been a factor in skaters' favor. Of course skating at home, a skater needs to be competitive and they need to skate well or there's little advantage, most of the time.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2013
  30. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    Exactly. I would have supported that (rule changes). I am not going to sign a petition that sounds silly.