Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by lala, Mar 25, 2013.
ITA! I'm shocked at how many people forget there is a short program factored into the score.
I love how only the quad counts in your assessment. Patrick had no triple axel.. Denis had two triple axels including a 3axel/3toe. I think two triple axels and a 3lutz more than cancels out the extra quad. Patrick also had no 3lutz. And the pass Patrick had his 3flip in was not clean. Denis absolutely out jumped Chan in that program.
Fine. Chan was not wuzgifted based on the current judging system. But a judging system that allowed a performance like that to place the way it did is seriously flawed. So to conclude, Chan may not be wuzgifted by the flawed system, but he definitely was wuzgifted by the judging system's being seriously flawed. And I'm sure that's what a lot of people are ultimately pointing to. Are you more at peace now?
I strongly agree with whoever that said a 1 point deduction for a fall in a program that has the potential to score 170 to 180 on average is hardly meaningful/justifiable.
There are so many different thoughts here that it's rather hard to articulate.
If Chan's victory was fair (as in the judges correctly applied the rules to the facts - ie skate) than the rules need to be changed, because I don't believe how he skated over the two programs was worth celebrating with a gold medal. If Chan's victory was unfair (that some/all the judges incorrectly applied the rules to the skate) the judges need to be educated on how to correctly apply the rules (and if they know how but are choosing not to, they do the sport no credit and shouldn't be judging). It's likely a bit of both, honestly, and that means it'll be harder to improve. But the sport has to try.
Why I object to these petitions and Plushenko's comments (not Wier, Eldridge, Harrison Choate, Christina Gao) is that their comments misdirect the discussion. Does Friedlander have any proof of politicking other than the general knowledge/feeling that it happens? How often is politicking used to discredit victories that we merely disagree with (Kostner wouldn't have done so well if she weren't from Cinquatta-land, Mao Asada won NHK 2012 because she's the Federation pet) etc etc. Because if she doesn't have proof and the discussion ends up being about how Skate Canada is the mafia of the figure skating world, what exactly gets solved?
That stated, I can point out that Denis Ten got higher PCS for a skate with five falls than a skate with three falls. I can point out that Jeremy Abbott's flawed free skates outPCS his clean ones. I can do this with virtually every senior skater that competes on the grand prix and/or multiple events in a season. It's an exhausting point to reiterate but it's true.
I was the one that said 1 point deduction in a 150~200 pts program is way undervalued and I have said repeatedly that I am for the system to change. I'm just pointing out the FALSE ACCUSATION that Chan's win is due to politiking, being the Saint of ISU, judging corruption, or whatever other reasons Chan haters are labeling him and Skate Canada.
Quite on the contrary. I think she knows very well what she is doing. (and no, I don't believe that awarding another gold medal is the real goal of her effort!)
What do you think her goal is? Stirring things up before the Olympics?
It can be several things. Making enough 'noise' and getting enough support to put a pressure on ISU to make changes in the scoring system (e.g. more deductions for falls or some bonus for clean program or whatever). Or it can have the same effect as the educational video that was given to judges before the last Olympics (it demonstrated the transitions and Plushenko was one of the skaters in the video...)
Oleg Vassiliev: "If Ten was a Canadian, would have received scores of 20-30 more»
If its all about being Canadian, how is it V&M with quite a brilliant performance at home, failed to get just the couple more points that would have given them gold?
She's a Chan Basher. It seems to be her only purpose for the last few years. I read one of her articles:
http://www.examiner.com/article/rewarding-failure-diminishes-figure-skating-as-a-sport and left the following comment:
"What a shame that you can point out that the flaws in figure skating are in the "system itself", an opinion that many legitimately share, including me, but then single out and bash Patrick Chan repeatedly. Horrible and so unfair."
In almost every article she writes she bashes Patrick, mocks him, calls him a Zamboni etc etc. She just starts to interest me on the subject matter and then she bashes him. I hate that, I really do.
Well said, Oleg. And if multi mistake Savchenko/Szolkowy were Canadian, they would have beaten Duhamel/Radford for the silver medal. But SS being non-Canadian, they had to settle for bronze.
Maybe Canada only has enough money to bribe for one discipline? That would explain the pairs and dance result, as well as the medal contender lady dropping off the podium.
I can't think of any other explanation at all.
Canada only politiks for Patrick!
No wonder Scott Moir is so pissy...
1. Osmond was never a serious contender (or if she had ever did have a real shot at a medal at Worlds, that would only suggest some heavy CSA politics for the home Worlds anyway) and skated like rubbish in her quite disaesterous and overscored LP. Her scores were in fact far too generous for her LP as it was, the same PCS as Sotnikova who skated much cleaner and has more general maturity in her skating at this stage of Osmond's devlopment, what a joke. While her SP was good I doubt she beats a clean Wagner in the short at this stage anywhere besides Canada TBH.
2. Duhamel & Radford would have never beaten a clean Savchenko & Szolkowy in the SP anywhere but Canada, and while some Canadians were upset they didnt win the silver, the truth is they wouldnt have been that close to S&S without them having a total meltdown at this stage in any other venue either. Canadian were almost silver and 4th, compare that to their results on the grand prix and all season and you think they were hard done by the judging of either the pairs or ladies, ROTFL!!
3. When countries politik usually one is sacrificed to help another anyway, and no countries can politik for everyone. Even Russia couldnt politik for everyone at the height of their power. Is this supposed to be news of some sort. If anything V&M could have been easily sacrificed to help buy votes for Chan (I am not saying this did or didnt happen, I dont even know if Chan's ridiculous scores and results are the CSA doing or just judges overrating him for that matter, but just hypothetically it is easy to imagine).
I am honestly flabbergasted that you decided to do a point by point reply to what was clearly a facetious post.
Their SD performance was relatively poor and cost them any chance to win. D&W had two very strong performances which V&M did not, and thus regardless who should have won the FD (I would have had V&M slightly but was fine either way) D&W were the clear winners overall. If anything after the scandalous mens results, the judges were careful how they scored the dance event.
It may have been facetious, but the post was motivated by the attitude that Skate Canada couldn't have possibly politicked at this competition or at least stemmed from a series of posts that mocked the very idea that Skate Canada politicked at this event. I'm not saying whether there was any wrongdoing, but I don't see how JJ's response was an inappropriate response.
I think the posts were mocking the idea that Skate Canada has outsized politicking prowess, not that it politicks. Every federation politicks. In very serious terms, I think the building of a myth of special power for Skate Canada and the enmity we are seeing generating from that myth is very harmful and malicious.
I just want to elaborate on this before someone makes the blanket assumption that I'm saying there's no legitimate reason to criticize the result of the Men's competition at Worlds.
A lot of legitimate concerns have been discussed in the various threads. Whether I agree or not, and to what extent, I think people have raised valid issues including 1. the way the PCS is implemented by the judges 2. the way the PCS is designed and whether it penalizes mistakes enough 3. the possible problem of judges assuming a kind of herd mentality which always over-rewards one particular skater 4. the possibility that reputation influences the judges
Its a huge leap from the legitimate criticisms and concerns to essentially, "Canada bought the bloc for Patrick." Its the latter, stated without evidence, that I think is harmful.
Eh, that's not quite true. What happened in the fall was during Skate Canada, at the post competition reception MRLG Benoit Lavoie and the Swiss judge were all at the same table talking. Apparently, Benoit Lavoie and MRLG were flirting and MRLG had said " I promised the Russian judge I would support them, but now that you're being so charming, I will have to reconsider". When she was asked about it after the fact during the disciplinary hearing/trial, she admitted to making the statement but claimed she was just flirting. However, she never made any statement proclaiming who the gold medalist was going to be. She later said that she wasn't approached by Gailhuguet concerning a deal until the Games themselves. I've long suspected Lavoie embellished that story,which is why I am pretty non-plussed at the idea of him having more power in the ISU.
IMHO that's up to interpretation. At the time I found it to be a toss-up, but understood that people simply responded more to S&P and felt disappointed.
Looking back on it, particularly in light of competitions like this years mens and pairs in 2008, it seems like much ado about nothing. The funny thing is, I don't really have issues with either of those two results either. I dislike that a performance like the one Chan gave this year won, but I'm also not getting the fuss. He won by the rules of the game .
When you said "People simply responded more to S&P...." you really meant people in Canada and USA. The competition was a toss-up based on how the two pairs skated. S&P skated a simple/easy program clean. B&S skated the most difficult program with one minor error (step out of the 2A which lasted for the blink of an eye; no disruption). In a toss-up most objective and knowledgeable fans are accepting of the result (it was a 5:4 result), but the way the US media created a storm it created the impression that B&S skated horribly, were falling all over the place, which was not true.
B&S's mistake cannot be compared with Chan's '2 falls and 2 other mistakes' performance, even though he too had the most complex choreography. If he won by the rules of the game, the rules must be modified to avoid such a scenario in the future. I am not convinced that reputation and political power were not factors in the scores each skater received- one from Canada and the other from Kazhakstan (big difference there!). I would say it's 60% fault of the rules and 40% the rest. The rules allowed the judges to bend them in certain ways. Results like this one are not good for the future of the sport.
Every federation does a give and take...The USFSA is powerful too and has really on D/W to all out politik for.
Your post would have merit if it wasnt for the fact that in many years and decades past people said the exact same thing but to far more enormous degrees about the German, Austrian, and most of all Soviet federations. While some of it was indicated to have truth about it (peoples eyewitness testimony mostly though which can always be dicey), if people, and many times Canadians and Americans more than anyone else, can suggest such things for years, then how is it unfair for others to suggest the Canadians are currently heavily involved in the same thing. People cant cry for decades about the big bad Russians and their evil federation and then cry foul when someone suggest that in their opinion Canada could be strong on the political side of things currently (which could be construed as a compliment in a way anyway, that is part of the sport and winning and always will be, like it or not).
Exactly. The USFSA puts all their weight behind D&W right now. Who else would they put it behind. Not saying they dont deserve their wins of late, IMO they certainly do, but they also certainly have the full backing of their strong fed. with no serious singles threats, obviously no pairs threats, etc....Canada supports Chan over anyone else right now, including V&M. They already have an Olympic ice dancing gold, and a singles star sells much better here anyway. Anyway contrary to the pre COP days it has suddenly become far more easy to BS the results in singles the way it used to be in dance.
For the sake of argument Skate Canada did politik hard enough for the judging panel to give Patrick the gold regardless of performance, do you realize how hard it is for those judges to do what they did in a span of a few minutes:
1. Give Denis Ten higher TES with factored GOE
2. Give Denis Ten enough PCS for him to win the FS
3. Give Denis enough score for the FS but not quite enough for him to make up the deficit from SP
1 and 2 are easy, but if you consider 3 it is really difficult with the way everything is factored from SP to FS and the GOE values on the elements. I doubt the judges have a computer running programs on the judging panel churn out what numbers to give for each PCS to achieve the above result. As a Electrical Engineer who studied advanced mathematics, it is almost impossible to do the above in your head. In fact looking at Denis Ten's score where he skated both programs brilliantly, the way his PCS went up was a sign that judges wanted him to win the FS and perhaps the whole competition because they are really cutting it close to the score they gave compare to Patrick. D10 was one rotation away to win Gold! No I'm not saying D10 wuzgifted, because if anything one can argue he should've receive higher PCS for his SP.
In summary... pointing the fingers are something that's untrue does not help the cause.
ITA, but just an aside: Politicking in the sport of figure skating is not considered "wrongdoing." Promoting and putting out buzz, influential observations, and kibitzing with judges and other powerful figures is all a part of what goes on. And then there's the stuff that is actual "wrongdoing," that even then won't generally get guilty parties in trouble unless they're caught or exposed red-handed. (But sometimes as re the infamous toe-tapping scandal, a slap on the wrist suffices and corrupt judges can later be reinstated if their fed has political clout, unless their actions precipitated a scandal of the proportions that the French judge was caught up in).
I disagree. Ashley skated with a lot of caution in London. There was no 3+3 attempt from her and she didn't skate with the same attack or speed that she had earlier in the season during the Grand Prix series. Wagner's last spin, the flying sit-change foot sit spin traveled pretty badly too. I feel Osmond skated with more speed and confidence. Plus, I appreciate her more genuine sense of emoting and charisma more so than Wagner's overdone pageant face, which comes off as too plastic for me. JMO.