Award a Gold Medal to Denis Ten for his Performance at the 2013 World Figure Skating

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by lala, Mar 25, 2013.

  1. kittysk8ts

    kittysk8ts New Member

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    She's a Chan Basher. It seems to be her only purpose for the last few years. I read one of her articles:

    http://www.examiner.com/article/rewarding-failure-diminishes-figure-skating-as-a-sport and left the following comment:

    "What a shame that you can point out that the flaws in figure skating are in the "system itself", an opinion that many legitimately share, including me, but then single out and bash Patrick Chan repeatedly. Horrible and so unfair."

    In almost every article she writes she bashes Patrick, mocks him, calls him a Zamboni etc etc. She just starts to interest me on the subject matter and then she bashes him. I hate that, I really do.
  2. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    Well said, Oleg. And if multi mistake Savchenko/Szolkowy were Canadian, they would have beaten Duhamel/Radford for the silver medal. But SS being non-Canadian, they had to settle for bronze.;)
  3. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe Canada only has enough money to bribe for one discipline? That would explain the pairs and dance result, as well as the medal contender lady dropping off the podium.

    I can't think of any other explanation at all. :lol:
  4. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    Canada only politiks for Patrick! :eek:

    No wonder Scott Moir is so pissy... :shuffle:
  5. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    1. Osmond was never a serious contender (or if she had ever did have a real shot at a medal at Worlds, that would only suggest some heavy CSA politics for the home Worlds anyway) and skated like rubbish in her quite disaesterous and overscored LP. Her scores were in fact far too generous for her LP as it was, the same PCS as Sotnikova who skated much cleaner and has more general maturity in her skating at this stage of Osmond's devlopment, what a joke. While her SP was good I doubt she beats a clean Wagner in the short at this stage anywhere besides Canada TBH.

    2. Duhamel & Radford would have never beaten a clean Savchenko & Szolkowy in the SP anywhere but Canada, and while some Canadians were upset they didnt win the silver, the truth is they wouldnt have been that close to S&S without them having a total meltdown at this stage in any other venue either. Canadian were almost silver and 4th, compare that to their results on the grand prix and all season and you think they were hard done by the judging of either the pairs or ladies, ROTFL!!

    3. When countries politik usually one is sacrificed to help another anyway, and no countries can politik for everyone. Even Russia couldnt politik for everyone at the height of their power. Is this supposed to be news of some sort. If anything V&M could have been easily sacrificed to help buy votes for Chan (I am not saying this did or didnt happen, I dont even know if Chan's ridiculous scores and results are the CSA doing or just judges overrating him for that matter, but just hypothetically it is easy to imagine).
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2013
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  6. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I am honestly flabbergasted that you decided to do a point by point reply to what was clearly a facetious post.
  7. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Their SD performance was relatively poor and cost them any chance to win. D&W had two very strong performances which V&M did not, and thus regardless who should have won the FD (I would have had V&M slightly but was fine either way) D&W were the clear winners overall. If anything after the scandalous mens results, the judges were careful how they scored the dance event.
  8. algonquin

    algonquin Well-Known Member

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    :lol:
  9. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    It may have been facetious, but the post was motivated by the attitude that Skate Canada couldn't have possibly politicked at this competition or at least stemmed from a series of posts that mocked the very idea that Skate Canada politicked at this event. I'm not saying whether there was any wrongdoing, but I don't see how JJ's response was an inappropriate response.
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  10. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    I think the posts were mocking the idea that Skate Canada has outsized politicking prowess, not that it politicks. Every federation politicks. In very serious terms, I think the building of a myth of special power for Skate Canada and the enmity we are seeing generating from that myth is very harmful and malicious.
  11. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    I just want to elaborate on this before someone makes the blanket assumption that I'm saying there's no legitimate reason to criticize the result of the Men's competition at Worlds.

    A lot of legitimate concerns have been discussed in the various threads. Whether I agree or not, and to what extent, I think people have raised valid issues including 1. the way the PCS is implemented by the judges 2. the way the PCS is designed and whether it penalizes mistakes enough 3. the possible problem of judges assuming a kind of herd mentality which always over-rewards one particular skater 4. the possibility that reputation influences the judges

    Its a huge leap from the legitimate criticisms and concerns to essentially, "Canada bought the bloc for Patrick." Its the latter, stated without evidence, that I think is harmful.
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  12. escaflowne9282

    escaflowne9282 Well-Known Member

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    Eh, that's not quite true. What happened in the fall was during Skate Canada, at the post competition reception MRLG Benoit Lavoie and the Swiss judge were all at the same table talking. Apparently, Benoit Lavoie and MRLG were flirting and MRLG had said " I promised the Russian judge I would support them, but now that you're being so charming, I will have to reconsider". When she was asked about it after the fact during the disciplinary hearing/trial, she admitted to making the statement but claimed she was just flirting. However, she never made any statement proclaiming who the gold medalist was going to be. She later said that she wasn't approached by Gailhuguet concerning a deal until the Games themselves. I've long suspected Lavoie embellished that story,which is why I am pretty non-plussed at the idea of him having more power in the ISU.


    IMHO that's up to interpretation. At the time I found it to be a toss-up, but understood that people simply responded more to S&P and felt disappointed.
    Looking back on it, particularly in light of competitions like this years mens and pairs in 2008, it seems like much ado about nothing. The funny thing is, I don't really have issues with either of those two results either. I dislike that a performance like the one Chan gave this year won, but I'm also not getting the fuss. He won by the rules of the game .
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2013
  13. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    When you said "People simply responded more to S&P...." you really meant people in Canada and USA. The competition was a toss-up based on how the two pairs skated. S&P skated a simple/easy program clean. B&S skated the most difficult program with one minor error (step out of the 2A which lasted for the blink of an eye; no disruption). In a toss-up most objective and knowledgeable fans are accepting of the result (it was a 5:4 result), but the way the US media created a storm it created the impression that B&S skated horribly, were falling all over the place, which was not true.

    B&S's mistake cannot be compared with Chan's '2 falls and 2 other mistakes' performance, even though he too had the most complex choreography. If he won by the rules of the game, the rules must be modified to avoid such a scenario in the future. I am not convinced that reputation and political power were not factors in the scores each skater received- one from Canada and the other from Kazhakstan (big difference there!). I would say it's 60% fault of the rules and 40% the rest. The rules allowed the judges to bend them in certain ways. Results like this one are not good for the future of the sport.
  14. bek

    bek Guest

    Every federation does a give and take...The USFSA is powerful too and has really on D/W to all out politik for.
  15. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Your post would have merit if it wasnt for the fact that in many years and decades past people said the exact same thing but to far more enormous degrees about the German, Austrian, and most of all Soviet federations. While some of it was indicated to have truth about it (peoples eyewitness testimony mostly though which can always be dicey), if people, and many times Canadians and Americans more than anyone else, can suggest such things for years, then how is it unfair for others to suggest the Canadians are currently heavily involved in the same thing. People cant cry for decades about the big bad Russians and their evil federation and then cry foul when someone suggest that in their opinion Canada could be strong on the political side of things currently (which could be construed as a compliment in a way anyway, that is part of the sport and winning and always will be, like it or not).
  16. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    :rofl:
  17. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. The USFSA puts all their weight behind D&W right now. Who else would they put it behind. Not saying they dont deserve their wins of late, IMO they certainly do, but they also certainly have the full backing of their strong fed. with no serious singles threats, obviously no pairs threats, etc....Canada supports Chan over anyone else right now, including V&M. They already have an Olympic ice dancing gold, and a singles star sells much better here anyway. Anyway contrary to the pre COP days it has suddenly become far more easy to BS the results in singles the way it used to be in dance.
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2013
  18. walei

    walei Well-Known Member

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    For the sake of argument Skate Canada did politik hard enough for the judging panel to give Patrick the gold regardless of performance, do you realize how hard it is for those judges to do what they did in a span of a few minutes:

    1. Give Denis Ten higher TES with factored GOE
    2. Give Denis Ten enough PCS for him to win the FS
    3. Give Denis enough score for the FS but not quite enough for him to make up the deficit from SP

    1 and 2 are easy, but if you consider 3 it is really difficult with the way everything is factored from SP to FS and the GOE values on the elements. I doubt the judges have a computer running programs on the judging panel churn out what numbers to give for each PCS to achieve the above result. As a Electrical Engineer who studied advanced mathematics, it is almost impossible to do the above in your head. In fact looking at Denis Ten's score where he skated both programs brilliantly, the way his PCS went up was a sign that judges wanted him to win the FS and perhaps the whole competition because they are really cutting it close to the score they gave compare to Patrick. D10 was one rotation away to win Gold! No I'm not saying D10 wuzgifted, because if anything one can argue he should've receive higher PCS for his SP.

    In summary... pointing the fingers are something that's untrue does not help the cause.
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  19. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ITA, but just an aside: Politicking in the sport of figure skating is not considered "wrongdoing." Promoting and putting out buzz, influential observations, and kibitzing with judges and other powerful figures is all a part of what goes on. And then there's the stuff that is actual "wrongdoing," that even then won't generally get guilty parties in trouble unless they're caught or exposed red-handed. (But sometimes as re the infamous toe-tapping scandal, a slap on the wrist suffices and corrupt judges can later be reinstated if their fed has political clout, unless their actions precipitated a scandal of the proportions that the French judge was caught up in).
  20. museksk8r

    museksk8r Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. Ashley skated with a lot of caution in London. There was no 3+3 attempt from her and she didn't skate with the same attack or speed that she had earlier in the season during the Grand Prix series. Wagner's last spin, the flying sit-change foot sit spin traveled pretty badly too. I feel Osmond skated with more speed and confidence. Plus, I appreciate her more genuine sense of emoting and charisma more so than Wagner's overdone pageant face, which comes off as too plastic for me. JMO.
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2013
  21. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Yeah, but still as a newbie, without the political backing of a powerful fed in home country, no matter how good Osmond was in the sp at her first Worlds, she wouldn't have been scored so highly especially in the components. Lots to admire about Osmond and she acquitted herself well. The main things holding her back in London that politicking couldn't overcome was experience and maturity. Without the fp mistakes, Osmond in 4th at least, especially in London venue.

    I don't see anything at all "plastic" about Ashley Wagner. To each their own. I think Ashley could soften her arms, and obviously make sure she's fit and strong for battle next season (strategically, mentally, in all ways). Sometimes its better to skate with caution than it is to go all out and come unraveled. At this point, I doubt any criticisms are gonna make the U.S. ladies feel down in the dumps.
  22. zerom10

    zerom10 New Member

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    As long as Plushenko will win in Sichi 2014 with four mistakes I won't sing this petition. Fair play.:hat1:
  23. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Well then you might as well sign the petition right now, as no chance on any planet that is happening.
  24. made_in_canada

    made_in_canada INTJ

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    Apologies if I missed a response to this question up thread. Carolina's choreography is on a whole different level of intricacy and detail than Osmond's. Bolero is a phenomenal piece of choreography.
  25. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    Yu Na Kim set a World record in her first worlds, without being from a powerful federation, without skating from her home country. Osmond's component score was 8th overall. I can't quite tell if you're arguing that her score would have been unfairly lower if she wasn't from a powerful federation or if her score was unfairly too high because she is. But I think her component score was certainly fair for what she did in the short program.

    made_in_Canada, I'd be curious if you could articulate your point more. I do undeniably prefer Kostner's "Bolero" to Osmond's "Carmen" but I think Osmond's technical choreography is really quite excellent (technical meaning layout of elements, transitions, etc). I respond to Kostner's maturity of interpretation and amazing skating skills, but she also has more stop-and-pose moments (though I don't even dislike those, she does them so well and as emotional fulcrum points).
  26. made_in_canada

    made_in_canada INTJ

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    Well, going by my memory (I haven't re-watched either program since worlds), Carolina uses the nuances of the music in a way that no other woman does. I know what you mean by the "stop and pose" moments but she's actually still doing quite a bit in those moments as well. It never seems like a stop and breathe moment, if that makes sense. I also see a lot more originality and purpose in Carolina's choreography, it's very complete in that there aren't any wasted movements and her entire body is communicating. There's also a lot of subtlety in her choreography and that's a very difficult thing to do well. You're right that Osmond does have technically sound choreography and given some time I expect she'll develop that side of her skating quite a bit more. I just find that right now in direct comparison to Kostner it's a lot more raw and is lacking some of the refinement of Kostner.

    Hopefully that makes sense ;)
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  27. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I agree about Osmond. Home country had nothing to do with placement. What I saw in her is a skater with the goods to go all the way (she reminds me so much of Rochette in her character and presentation) but it is not quite there yet. Give it a couple of years she has the potential to be something very special. It wasn't quite there are this event.
  28. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    You mean you DON't agree about Osmond ;) She also reminds me of Rochette in the power and strong carriage that she has. Although she appears to be much more of an extrovert. I love both skaters.

    I still don't understand why so many think Osmond was overmarked in her SP. Like some already pointed out, her PCS was only 8th highest, and her TR score was ridiculously low for skating probably one of the most choreographically complex (from a technical POV) programs delivered by a lady. To me she was UNDERmarked in her PCS. I don't know how people can disagree with her GOE on the jumps either.

    And seriously, people are still buying the power of Eville Canadian Bloc conspiracy/Canadian home ice advantage after V/M losing two major competitions to D/W now on the home ice, despite being THE stars of Skate Canada? :rofl:
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2013
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  29. algonquin

    algonquin Well-Known Member

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    That was part of the conspiracy you know, V/M were sold out for Chan's gold.
  30. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    :lynch: Canada Federation. How could you sold out V&M for that Chan! :D

    Poor skaters. In reality, they are all sh#t. Without their Federations, they would not have won anything at all.
  31. sadya

    sadya Active Member

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    I did sign this petition, not because I agree with all arguments in it, but because I hope that it might prompt the ISU to change the rules so a person with multiple falls can't beat someone with a cleaner performance when they're ranked 1-2 after the sp. I do think Chan's win was right in this competition because the rules allowed it as many have explained. Some very informative articles about this issue can be found here, amongst them more sugggestions to develop better judging criteria:

    http://www.examiner.com/article/opining-on-worlds-the-plight-and-misuse-of-program-components
    [Opining on Worlds: The plight and misuse of program components]

    http://www.examiner.com/article/opi...ty-and-sterility-of-tape-delay-what-about-tes
    [perhaps a bit off-topic for this thread; Opining on Worlds: The sanity/sterility of tape delay, what about TES?]

    http://www.flutzingaround.com/2013_03_10_archive.html
    [What a Great Mens Championship at 2013 Worlds]

    http://www.flutzingaround.com/2013/03/even-more-analyzing-chan-and-ijs.html
    [even more analyzing chan and ijs]

    http://www.flutzingaround.com/2013/03/another-thought-to-consider-re-pcs-vs.html
    [Another Thought to Consider RE: PCS vs. TES]
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  32. falling_dance

    falling_dance The Scarlet Unlettered

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    This.
  33. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    Because she is from CA NA DA! All Canadians are overmarked because Canadian Federation is :EVILLE: :biggrinbo
  34. Skater91

    Skater91 New Member

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    Chan won, get over it!

    This thread should be closed already.
  35. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the links, sadya. Those are quite interesting analyses but I am not sure I feel more enlightened now after reading them than I was before about how the rules should be changed to better reflect what the skaters put out on the ice.

    For instance, examiner says:

    Apparently, examiner believes that the judges don't necessarily mark what's on th ice but that the marking has a lot to do with reputation and starting order. How should the scoring system be designed to prevent this from happening?

    I have to agree that Chan's marks for PE and IN feel wrong when you compare them with Ten's but if we think that Chan would most likely have scored somewhere in the mid-nineties on the PC mark for a clean free skate, maybe a loss of around 6 points in all was enough punishment in the minds of the judges for the mistakes he made?

    Which brings me to flutzingaround:

    Assuming Chan would have scored above 99 in the SP with a better executed 4/3 combination and 3A, the two skaters wouldn't have tied overall and Chan would still have won, I guess. Would Chan's win due to an even larger SP margin have been less controversial than it is? Because the whole outcry seems to come down to you can't win with falls to a skater who skated cleanly.

    I personally am in favor of a more severe deduction for falls but this deduction would have to be applied to all the skaters at every competition and I'm afraid we don't live in an ideal figure skating world where Patrick Chan is the only one falling, so I don't know how much support a change in the rules to punish falls more harshly would find among the ISU officials and within national federations.;)
  36. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if you even read many of the posts. I don't see Chan hatred here. What I am seeing is protest against the current judging system, and judges holding up skaters with reputation, regardless of how they skate. Many of us actually love the way Chan moves across the ice, with attention to detail, but when he skates poorly it needs to reflect in the marks. Part of the problem is the system itself, but there is also a part that allows well reputed skaters to get away with mistakes. Chan is not the only beneficiary of this. I had expressed my protest when V&T won despite some major errors earlier this season (can't remember if it was GPF or one of the GPs). Clearly some improvements to the judging system is needed, but the general tendency of FS judges to be generous with top skaters when they skate poorly needs to change. It's a whole cultural change for the sport.
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  37. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    It was on the GPF
  38. sadya

    sadya Active Member

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    Various people have commented throughout the years how judges don't always mark what they see before them and how difficult it is to judge about 25-40 skaters in one competition, how which group a skater is makes more different for the marks than what is actually shown on the ice, etc. Some people, including one of the Dutch Eurosport commentators, call it the 'psychology of judging' . I still remember discussions about marks related to the skating position in a certain group from the '90s with the old judging system, that human element is still here in the new judging system and as it is us humans judging, I wonder if it could ever really be solved. Better training for the judges about these issues might help.
  39. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I do think most judges try in good faith to judge what they see just as many knowledgeable skating fans do. I think people don't realize what an endurance test it really is to judge all those skaters and hold one's concentration. Also, when one is comparing skaters to one another (yes I know COP has tried to solve that problem) one can't help but give a high quality skater higher scores in some respect just because the difference in quality is much more apparent when compared to a skater who isn't as high quality. Look at the record-breaking V/T Worlds performance for a beautifully executed performance when the night for the most part was disappointing or Ten's higher-than-usual PCS at Worlds LP.
  40. manleywoman

    manleywoman podcast mistress

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    And I wish everyone would read these. I've read more than a few comments here and elsewhere complaining about the results, but offering no actual solutions. I respect these guys a lot for offering an analysis of the event without resulting to bitching and whining about how our sport is going downhill.

    ETA: I don't disagree that it sucks that a skater who falls multiple times can win over another skater.
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2013
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