Award a Gold Medal to Denis Ten for his Performance at the 2013 World Figure Skating

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by lala, Mar 25, 2013.

  1. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    25,403
    Are you implying that the posters on this chatboard, including yourself, know more than those who competed at world level? I don't care what system they competed under; they do know FS, and whether they like the IJS or not, I value their opinions.

    How many times have YOU competed under IJS at senior world level (or even junior world level)?

    What the emotions about this decision are saying is that figure skating judging needs to be fixed. May be it's the rules, may be it's the judging, but many people- fans and skaters alike- are screaming to make it better. What's wrong with it? I don't agree with the petition, and I don't agree with changing the results of a competition (unless an athlete fails drug tests), but there is a strong need for the ISU to look into the issues involved and make the system better.
     
  2. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2007
    Messages:
    321
    I'm implying that some expertized skating fans, not including me, on this chatboard, yes, who post on this chatboard, know more about this system than those said skaters.:)
     
  3. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2008
    Messages:
    2,891
    To be fair, the guy who was the commentator during the Europeans and worlds at British Eurosport also used to compete at senior level at worlds and his knowledge is a bit patchy. The things he says...calling Mao Asada 'Maya Asada' (I think she has been around long enough that he could remember her name, or at least read it properly). "The rumour says that she has triple axel". :eek: Rumour!!!! :lol: and other pearls...
     
    Maofan7 and (deleted member) like this.
  4. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    10,028
    But do they know figure skating better? I don't think their reactions really stem from a serious COP analysis of whether Ten should have won, but what they as figure skaters think should have won based on what they value in the sport.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2013
  5. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    3,274
    Well, it was MIA from Mao's routines for 2 entire seasons (2011 & 2012) and she didn't start landing it again this season until 4CC, one month before Worlds.
     
  6. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    4,258
    Which is completely valid, in the midst of everyone expressing their opinions about the system.

    Essentially, isn't that what we all do?
     
    Vash01 and (deleted member) like this.
  7. volunteer

    volunteer Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2013
    Messages:
    176
    Who is Monica Friedlander? She is showing her ignorance by comparing this situation with the Salt Lake City Olympics judging scandal. And since when is the outcome of any sport based on audience preference?
    There are some valid points to be made about the allotment of points for various elements, but frankly, every time someone decides that it justifies making personal attacks on Patrick Chan, it only serves to diminish their credibility.
     
  8. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2005
    Messages:
    17,515
  9. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,115
    The picture she chose of Chan is from what year? Certainly not from the last three WORLD championships. Is it from 2010Worlds when he came second overall to Takahashi?
     
  10. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2002
    Messages:
    4,381
    Oh really? You guys speak like a 3axel-3toe and another 3axel mean nothing.
     
  11. bek

    bek Guest

    Your making a lot of assumptions. First of all, how much do you know that Johnny Weir and Todd Eldridge know. Todd Eldridge is currently a coach so how do you he's clueless about the system. Johnny's competed under IJS for years. Maybe he doesn't do everything you think he should do under IJS, but can you assume he knows nothing about it.

    One thing Todd and Johnny and some of the others know that you are very much ignoring, is how hard it is to actually go out there and compete. They also know quite a lot about skating. How difficult is to go out there and do a hard program, with choreography. How hard it to land a triple axel or a quad in competition.

    I would also think most skaters who have done it all their lives have a pretty good understanding of basic skating skills. So I think their opinion about the fact that maybe skaters getting multitude of points for falling over, bares a little weight. Seeing as these people may not like the system, but they certainly understand the concept of skating better than 99.9 if not 100 percent of those of us here on the board.

    To just dismiss people who have spent their entire lives on figure skating as just not knowing the system, so not having a valid opinion is ridiculous. Especially since skating came before the system.

    Besides this system is subjective anyways. Some people DO get docked if they fall a lot, some don't. Its awfully subjective to me. But I think its awfully ridiculous to dismiss people who have reached the highest levels in this sport (Todd's a world champion, and Johnny a world medalist).

    As people who have actually skated these folks understand more than like in real terms way more than I suspect a lot of the experts your talking about the actual difficult of all programs in question.

    Even Plushenko who people suggest knows nothing, well somebody who understood "nothing" wouldn't make comments about how he and Joubert lack transitions. That suggests in reality Plushenko knows full well (and was quite stupid to say what he said).
    The fact that you have high level skaters stating things about the way folks can win with multitude of mistakes, should mean something. Its not just casual fans are complaining.. The "system" is new invention and should exist to serve the sport. Not to change the sport fundamentally to where even top level skaters are saying they don't want to watch.
     
  12. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    25,403

    The bolded portion represents my thoughts exactly. A lot of posters here are making assumptions about how much Eldredge and Weir (and others) know about COP. Did they really give them a test to check their knowledge? Just because they competed under 6.0 and/or said at some point that they did not like the IJS (I don't particularly like it either, although there are some things about it that I like), some posters are assuming that they don't know the new system or don't understand it. The truth is the posters don't know whether or not these high level skaters know the system, but they are so eager to criticize them, for the simple reason their opinion is different.

    I pretty much agree with the rest of the post. I have great respect for skaters that have been competing at the highest level. I value their opinion over those who are criticizing from the sidelines. I may not always agree with what they say, but they certainly know and understand FS better than a lot of people. I would not just dismiss them.
     
  13. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    4,258
    bek and Vash01, I absolutely agree.
     
  14. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    4,258
    Just curious: is there a penalty for not doing a certain number of jump elements? Just for fun, I did a little calculation of my own.

    Patrick completed the following jumps correctly: 4T-3T, 4T, 3Lp, 2Lz-2T and 2A. Based on his scores, if he had ONLY done these jumps, along with all his other spins, footwork elements and the same PCS scores, his LP would have scored 154.21. Mind you, this means 5 jump elements (rather than 9) and no 3Ax, 3Lz, 3F or 3S.

    This hypothetical score, combined with his SP score, would have scored 252.58, giving him a placement of 2nd overall. (And with no errors in the program, his PCS would have been higher, no?) Bronze medalist Javier Fernandez (who completed 8 jump elements correctly in the LP) had a total score was 249.06.

    Carry on.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2013
  15. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    Joined:
    May 9, 2002
    Messages:
    11,277
    I am sorry to hear that, Louis. You have been a knowledgeable fan whom I look up to and it is sad to hear you losing interest in the sport. Here's hoping whoever you still enjoy can skate well at Sochi :cheer:
     
  16. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2008
    Messages:
    1,194
    I totally agree with you that we shouldn't make any assumptions on how much a skater knows about current system but as far as Johnny goes, it's really hard for me to take his opinion of scores and results seriously so long as he himself admits to his lack of understanding of the CoP.

    You can read the full interview here, it's dated October 2012.

    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/sho...ny-Weir-I-can-t-do-a-comeback-like-Pluschenko
     
  17. bek

    bek Guest

    Even if Johnny doesn't "know the system" in and out. He still knows how difficult it is to do lets say a level four spin, and how difficult the new footwork is etc. He may know instinctively more than he and others think.
     
  18. walei

    walei Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2004
    Messages:
    1,330
    The problem is in this situation neither Plushenko, Eldredge, or Weir, or any other elite figure skaters / journalists / writers / etc. bothered to point out what score was unjustified and quickly jumped on the bandwagon that Chan wuzgifted. On the other hand we see blog posts and forum posts analyze the PCS and why Chan's score wasn't out of line in the current system.

    Just because they been through the training and competing at the highest level doesn't mean their crying automatically becomes more valid if they can't back up their claims.
     
  19. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    11,182
    In the short program, elements are required, but I'm not sure if there is an actual deduction for missing one.

    In the free, the number of jumps allowed is a maximum. Florent Amodio for instance has been doing fewer than the allowed passes recently.
     
  20. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2008
    Messages:
    2,891
    Maybe, but she has been landing it on and off for the last 10 years, since the age of 12, so I think we can safely say that it is not a rumour that she has triple Axel. She did land three triple Axels in the last Olympic games. I would understand if she landed it just a few times in her career, but I think she landed it enough times that it isn't really a rumour that she has it.
     
  21. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    10,028
    Again, that probably wasn't their point. They probably were just outraged that the system justifiably gave Chan that title.
     
  22. walei

    walei Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2004
    Messages:
    1,330
    I agree it could be like what you said (except Plushenko's case where he just flat out said it was all Skate Canada's politiking). I have more of a problem with this petition and the author's mentality that the sentiment is echoed by other elites so it must be true.
     
  23. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2007
    Messages:
    321
    You are right. But it is the kind of assumption that most people would have concluded based on what we have known so far.

    Don't you see that this whole petition thing is making the world biggest assumption of all?! And they intend to change the history of figure skating just based on their assumptions. Did Plushenko make assumption about Skate Canada involvement? Well, that was an "expertized" assumption, wasn't it?!:rolleyes:
     
  24. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

    Joined:
    May 24, 2002
    Messages:
    42,220
    She cannot be called a journalist. No journalist could write an article about a petition they started like that. She has no credibility and neither does the site she writes for. That was the most laughable thing I've ever seen!

    No one should give her the time of day as anything more than just one more figure skating fan.

    Monica Friedlander if you read here on FSU, you are an idiot. How on earth can you call yourself a journalist and write an article about your own petition as if you were just reporting on it?
     
  25. Asli

    Asli Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2001
    Messages:
    9,995
    It's incredible actually that she couldn't find/didn't think of finding anyone else to start it for her, so that it would seem acceptable for her to report it!
     
  26. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

    Joined:
    May 24, 2002
    Messages:
    42,220
    It seems like she is so outraged about this she's not able to give any thought to what she's doing. That's the time one should step away from the computer...
     
  27. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2007
    Messages:
    321
    She made this blow out of proportion. Then she has gotten something for herself to write about. That's called self-sufficiency.:p

    And the people who chimed in to sign the petition each and everyone has their own little calculation in their mind. Some people agreed with the assumption of Ms. Friedlander's about the dirty business of Skate Canada. Some people who didn't agree with the petition wanted to ride on this high tide to achieve their own goal. Whatever it is - change the scoring system; hate Patrick Chan because their own favorite was nowhere near the podium, so they used Denis Ten; Denis Ten fans; etc. etc. ... What a zoo!
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2013
  28. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Messages:
    1,648
    As much as I want Kwan to be awarded a "second gold medal" for 1998, it would set too dangerous of a precedent to award golds for everything. Unless there is something illegal going on behind the scenes, and as long as there is no protest filed before close of the event, the judge's decisions are final. What would be really funny is if there was a protest for silver. "I won the bronze but should have got the silver!!" is not an argument you hear too often. Usually 3rd placers are happy they got any kind of medal (except for Irina-2006).
     
    kwanette and (deleted member) like this.
  29. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2007
    Messages:
    321
    Well, what's next, Ms. Friedlander?!

    Maybe petition for the second gold for 2010 Olympic for Plushenko? And the second gold for 1994 Olympic for Elvis Stojko? Oh, definitely should have petition for the second gold for Kwan for 1998 Olympic. :rofl:
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2013
  30. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

    Joined:
    May 24, 2002
    Messages:
    42,220
    I looked at the petition and it seems that now that stories have been run by Kazakhstan media many people from Kazakhstan have signed the petition. I find this really sad because they appear to have been hoodwinked into thinking a US journalist is responsible for this as the article as posted earlier in the thread refers to Friedlander as a US journalist. She's as much a journalist as I am. I can go get myself published on a volunteer site like the Examiner.com too, but that shouldn't suddenly allow me to present myself with more credibility than I would otherwise have.

    Monica Friedlander is entitled to her opinion and as a figure skating fan she is entitled to post it all over the internet and to start all the petitions she wants. But it is dishonest for her to present herself as a journalist and allow people in another country to think she is a prominent, credible journalist at that so that they are drawn into her crusade when they otherwise might not be.