Award a Gold Medal to Denis Ten for his Performance at the 2013 World Figure Skating

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by lala, Mar 25, 2013.

  1. Debrah

    Debrah Well-Known Member

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    Wow, this Chan hate is getting out of hand.

    The new COP system rewards what a skater does well over the course of the entire event. It also deducts for all the mistakes, it is then a simple case of math – adding up all the good stuff and deducting all the mistakes and that’s the total score; it is not that complicated. Chan won the title overall, mostly based on his stellar SP; but he did just enough in the LP, thanks to his 2 great quads, to keep his lead overall, but by the skin of his teeth - barely a point, so it was a very close victory.

    Chan did lose to Ten in the free, rightly so, Ten was really, really good, but even he was not quite perfect either. Chan was 2nd, but Chan based on BOTH his programs still had enough points in the till to be 1st overall.

    Yes, Chan fell in the long program, but he took all the deductions according to the rules. It was not his best long program ( seems now that Chan will always have to be perfect to be considered a worthy champion). However, he still completed his 2 biggest LP scoring tricks -- Quad toe /3t and quad toe, so with his lead in the short (for a truly outstanding SP) plus the points from the quads in the LP, he had built up a bit of a buffer, points wise, to keep himself in the hunt, even with some mistakes.

    History shows us that the advantage always goes to the past champion, esp., when skating decisions are really close. No doubt about it, Ten skated very well in London, and had Ten skated that well during this past grand prix season and also during this past Oly cycle, then perhaps Ten too would have built up enough rep to have a bigger boost PCS wise, but then, he would also have had to deal with the huge pressure of expectation, like Chan, the Japanese and new Euro champ -Fernandez, and newly crowned 4CC champ - Reynolds, had to. As things unfolded, Ten flew under the radar. According to results this past season everyone expected Fernandez, Hanyu or Dai, perhaps even Reynolds (with another miraculous skate) to possibly beat Chan. But Chan refused to go quietly into the night, he beat them all proving himself as the world champion he was/is, in the pressure cooker of the short program, he skated the best sp in world record breaking fashion, simple as that.

    Let's see how Ten responds next season, when he has that additional podium expectation upon his shoulders. Had the other contending men all done their jobs better in the sp, then maybe the final results in London would have been different!

    The truth is pretty much that everyone else choked, the exceptions were Ten, and Reynolds in the sp. The Japanese men and Fernandez, were all very, very, underwhelming in the SP. I guess that’s Chan fault too, the way all this magical thinking and petition writing is going.

    Here is the truth: None of the favored men skated well, fact is, most were quite sub par. This fan was very disapointed and completely underwhelmed by Dai, Hanyu, Fernandez, Amodio, Miner, Verner, the list goes on. They all seem exhausted, or uninterested and wishing they were anywhere else but in London. But, I also found a whole new respect for Joubert, he at least looked like he was trying, his mind and spirit willing, but the body failing him. Liebers got his job done, why is he so under the radar? Reynold's and Rogozine also manged to rise to the occasion of a home worlds and for the most part so did Chan.

    Hanyu, the skater with the previous world record in the short, perhaps due to inexperience, injury, or sickness, whatever the reason was, he simply tanked his sp and was 9th scoring only 75.94 instead of his expected 1st place score of around 95, so he lost a lot of points and Hanyu is not considered a long program skater due to his health issues, he needed to come out on top in the sp. Fernandez the new Euro champ was 7th also well under his best SP score, but only by about 8 points. Still, they both had big hills to climb. These 2Orser students, were the supposed 2 big guns with the best potential knockout punches to beat Chan – given Hanyu’s record short, or Fernandez’s 3 Quad long! If that wasn’t enough ammunition there were also 2 very popular former world champs taking aim at Chan and some other quad jumper’s also in the London field, guys likely to be in the top 10, perhaps with outside shots at bronze; men such as Brezina, Amodio, Kovtun, Verner, Aaron, Miner, Song, the list goes on so if the planets had aligned in the right way, any one of them could have been considered as, at least in the hunt for a spot on the podium. All these men with Quads, 3 axels in their pockets, had ample opportunity to take down Chan, who was admitting to not being at his best, plus SC fed was not overly thrilled with his new coaching situation, so that decision was comming under scrutiny - the 2 time world champion over the season had looked like he was having doubts, but when the time came to skate the SP in London, none of the 33 other men in the field beat him. He not only defended, he actually broke a new world SP record.

    Some of these very popular guys had lots of rep and momentum from past GP season coming into London with them. I was waiting to see them skate in person having witnessed all the hype around these other contender’s, I thought there was going to be a great contest. Chan had lost steam over the season and everyone expected he might be in trouble perhaps 3rd or 4th this year based on his GP season, but still none of the other big guns managed to deliver in the short program when it counted. They all pretty much choked big time; only Ten flying under the radar, even came close.

    Is Chan the new Plushenko? I seem to recall some FSU backlash over some of Plushenko’s scores too. I suppose it is Chan’s fault, as he actually skated a career personal best short program – setting a new world record, while the new national Japanese champ and former holder of said record - the adorable Hanyu, with all these new expectations simply tanked his. People are going on about hometown advantage, and skate Canada power politics, but perhaps the sea of red in the stadium was just additional pressure heaped upon the already overloaded Chan, as well as the other Cdn skater's; advantage baloney -- more terrifying if you ask me, since there was not even a Cdn judge on the Men’s, dance, or the ladies panel, so no toe tapping going on there... I don’t think there was any undue influence nd even if the judges on the men's panel had a dream scenario in mind, the skater's still have to skate well to make it happen. Ten was given great PCS so he was being well supported, despite no real track record, just tons of potential.

    Everyone was all a twitter, when Hanyu broke the sp record, but seems everyone would prefer to ignore Chan’s record breaking sp skate, and focus instead on the mistakes he made in his freeskate; go figure, perhaps if TV also showed the sp's like they used to, maybe there would be less controversy...

    Instead of blaming Chan, or writing petitions, maybe the other guys should have all skated better. It’s not like Chan is the only skater getting a boost when he skates well, the Russian pairs team of V&T also got huge scores, even with mistakes, they wound up 20 pts higher than everyone else.

    Hanyu the guy with the previous world highest SP score was 9th, Fernandez well back in 7th and Dai was 4th giving Dai the best chance of those most favored to take out Chan in the freeskate. Only Fernandez climbed out of the cellar with his 4th place long program and on to the podium with his 3rd place overall finish. Hanyu simply could not dig himself out of the giant hole even with the 3rd best long program of the night, not even with the help of skater’s like Dai, Joubert both tumbling back down the results column, it was not enough to lift Hanyu out of the hole he had dug for himself.

    I was there in person and instead of the great contest I was hoping for, all the major contender's choked at some point, even Chan had some issues in his LP. Few contending men rose to the occasion, there were skater's who did beat their personal bests in the SP-- guys like Reynold's, Brezina, Joubert, Aaron to name a few. While Mura, Rogozine, Liebers, Ge etc., rose up did their PB in the long. There was a lot of cannon fodder too, a lot of men just came unglued in the freeskate. Experienced guys some former world champs like Dai and Joubert, also Brezina, Amodio, Song dropped like stones. Ten being under the radar with no expectations skated very, very well, achieving personal bests in both sp and lp. Ten had great Lori N. material to sell, and a respected coach at the boards helping to hold his nerve and hone his efforts, then again he did not have the huge pressure of expectation to carry out on to the ice either, just the confidence that came from his PB sp! Ten was not wearing the big target on his back, he was becomming “the little engine that could” quietly chugging up the track being cheered on by the spectator’s, but still well under the radar.

    Most of the Men contender's succumbed to nerves. Patrick did his job well enough to create a new world record sp score and managed to hold the lead overall even with a sub par (for him) freeskate, which was still pretty good when compared to the rest of the field.

    Whenever it is a very close decision in skating, the benefit of the doubt and thus the title usually goes to the past champion, defending is always considered tougher than chasing, that’s the way it has always been done. Ten was great, he certainly earned his silver medal, for sure; now let’s see what he can do next season with these new podium expectations, shall we?

    No, judges are trained to make these types of calls for a good reason, fans can have opinions but as stated above "this ain't dancing with the stars or idol," we fans don't get a vote, and before starting petitions perhaps we all need to chill a bit and to reflect and review and ponder where all the hue and cry is comming from and what may be really motivating any controversy...
     
    The Accordion, clarie, PeterG and 3 others like this.
  2. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    Wow 1800 words! Good job, Debrah.
     
  3. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    They are just using Denis Ten. Poor Denis!
     
  4. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Interesting interpretation of the facts.
     
  5. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    Disagree. We were specifically addressing an idiot with an annoying history.
     
  6. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    Great Job Debrah.
    Its absolutely as I saw it. Chan left the door open no one walked completed through. Ten just stood in the doorway.
     
    julieann and (deleted member) like this.
  7. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Yes, i agree with you.
     
  8. algonquin

    algonquin Well-Known Member

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    Well written post. Thank you. I was also there that in person and also disappointed that it was not the great contest that I hoped. It was in a word "underwhelming". In many respects, it reminded me of past Canadian Ladies competitions, a lot of the men looked like deers in headlights. I agree that Chan was sub par but better than the rest of the field. Ten was great, but you are right he did not have any pressure on his shoulders and as many have pointed out, his program was not as difficult as Chan's.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2013
  9. skatingfan04

    skatingfan04 Active Member

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    Well, this is sad. Clearly some disgruntled fan has far too much time on his/her hands.
     
  10. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    Hmm, I didn't take the 5-point differential on PC as an attempt of the judges to give Chan the gold no matter what. Even if the judges had marked Chan down by a couple of points or had marked Takahashi up by a couple of points, I suppose Chan would still have won the competition due to a 4 points lead after the short program and I don't think that a win by just one point is any less valuable than a win by ten points. Denis being within 3 points of Chan, could it be explained by that Chan fell two times in 2013 but just one time in 2012? But I know it's Chan's GOEs and Chan's PC marks that get scrutinized and questioned, has anyone ever wondered how Takahashi ended up with a positive GOE for a quad he landed on two feet at last season's Worlds? Or how he could get the highest PC mark in the free skate in Vancouver for a performance with multiple negative GOEs and a fall on top of it? Can a skater who falls beat a skater who doesn't fall or should we believe Johnny Weir that he was robbed off the bronze medal in 2010? I feel whoever would dare ask those questions would be verbally attacked by an angry mob calling them trolls, idiots and retards.:lol:

    Do we have confidence that Davis and White rightfully won the free dance in London to Virtue and Moir or was it politicking and collusion among the judges? And if we agree they deserved to win that dance, do we have confidence they won by the right margin? I guess we will never know.;)

    How many signatures does that petition need for Denis Ten to be awarded a second gold? Five hundred, five thousand or fifty thousand?:lol:
     
  11. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    VarBar, those are all excellent questions to which I don't have the answers. :lol:
     
  12. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    This is an excellent example of how only certain results are scrutinized based on the skater rather than even the actual result itself.

    In the previous Olympic cycle (pre-2010), people on this board were bemoaning as to why Brian Joubert consistently received the highest (or among the highest) component scores (sometimes outscoring Lambiel and Takahashi). The target always seems to change (and will eventually change to somebody else in the next Olympic cycle, I presume).
     
  13. kittysk8ts

    kittysk8ts Member

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    Yes Clarie and Jaana :). And I think what Patrick said was that Denis had doubled a jump that if he had tripled, he would have won. I don't recall him saying that Denis made as many mistakes. Either way, the issue here is IJS and not Patrick Chan. Patrick is a 22 year old man living within the insular world of elite figure skating. Could he be a smidgen more diplomatic? Perhaps. However, he is being attacked 2 years running and he doesn't have the media experience necessary to defend the attacks. Patrick speaks what he is honestly thinking and he is not hateful or mean. THIS IS NOT HIS FAULT. Judgejudy27 clearly loathes Patrick himself and in this context, that is unfair. I don't think it is a good thing to attack or mock any skater. Clearly we all here are invested in this sport in some way and so the issues become personal, but healthy and respectful dialogue, while difficult, is best. I truly hope the skaters don't come here and see the awful things said about some of them. It would be so demoralizing for them when they work so hard for their passion and to provide us with ours. Oh well, perhaps I am living in a dream world. LOL. I wish I could give Patrick a big hug because this has to be a tough time for him. On a happy note, I tweeted Denis to congratulate him on his amazing skates and he "favourited" my tweet! What a cutie pie and brilliant skater. Ok, I shall be quiet now :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2013
  14. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    Show me a topic where Chan is being discussed and I can assure you that JJ is spewing her hate for Patrick in multiple posts -- and usually saying the same thing.

    You know what they say is the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again yet expecting different results. If I apply such to JJ and her posts about Patrick not deserving to win in spite of the face that he won anyway, I think the conclusion is clear. ;-) JJ is insane for Patrick. :)

    Back to topic. I would not consider signing the petition. I am still thrilled to bits for Denis. I have enjoyed watching him for years, just not always his results. So glad he could skate two good programs. As was said earlier, let's see how well young Mr Ten skates now that his name is "up there" amongst those to watch for podium picks.
     
  15. JanetB

    JanetB Well-Known Member

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    One of the things I like best about Patrick Chan is that he skates programs that are a challenge to himself, that only on his good/best days that he can skate cleanly. Because he could very easily dumb down his programs in such a way that he could skate them cleanly every time but unlike so many top skaters he continues to challenge himself. I don't mind when he falters because it moves me to tears when he soars and that is so much better then a bunch of mediocre glop. In pushing himself he pushes all of the men to get better and that is a great thing.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2013
  16. SGrand

    SGrand Member

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    JanetB I'm hoping you meant Soars instead of Sours lol. ;)
     
  17. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    :respec: Ziggy, I love ya! ;)
     
  18. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    He has been world champion three times; six-time senior national champion, as well as novice and junior national championship; won several Grand Prix medals of different colours; *and* represented his country in a high-profile Olympic event in an Olympics held in his country. Because of all that, he has tons of media experience. I think any problems with what he says is how people interpret his remarks or how they are reported, not because he is naive about how to deal with the media.
     
  19. aims

    aims New Member

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    This is a ridiculous approach to take and SO inconsiderate towards Denis Ten and his own feelings about his historic achievement. Has any of the signers read his message to the fans after the Worlds? Do people seriously think he'll want to be remembered as a second winner of the 2013 Worlds Championship after a controversial hoopla that ended with a petition that overruled the original results weeks after the whole thing was over?
    Now if it were the Kazakhstan Federation or his coaching staff starting the petition, that's a whole different story.
     
  20. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    Was her long really more complex than say Osmond's? I'm not saying Osmond is on her level skating skills wise (she's really really not), but curious here.
     
  21. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Well-Known Member

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    I am so happy all the reasonable folk joined the thread :D Rock on FSU!!! Facts and logic....not blind hatred.
     
  22. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    I agree with this, at least in part. The PCS is not implemented correctly by the judges but there is also a need to revise the rules when a controversial decision takes place. It also does not help when judges are not held accountable for the marks they have given; they can hide instead of letting everyone see how they marked the skater (the 6.0 system was good in that respect).

    It will be tough to have unambiguous rules in FS because of the nature of this sport, but it is important for the ISU to acknowledge there is a problem and try to fix it instead of pushing it under the rug. I don't believe in changing results of a game/competition after it's over, but I am open to changing rules for future competitions. That's what the petition needs to be for, and not for a second gold.
     
  23. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    The petition may be misguided, but it clearly is tapping into feelings that many people have regarding the results which are not simply a matter of some people being upset that a skater they wanted and expected to win, didn't win. Also, I don't think it's about disrespecting Patrick Chan. IMO, Patrick is as victimized by faulty judging and faulty scoring system as much as all the skaters.

    In any case, no matter how many people sign a petition like this, the result is not going to be changed. I suspect the people who drafted the petition may or may not have in mind the ultimate objective of Ten being awarded the gold medal, since that is highly unlikely to happen. Perhaps it is more about tapping into the feeling many people seem to have that something is not right about the results of the men's competition and the scoring system in particular. Again, no rap on Patrick personally, but if a blind poll could be taken among all the current eligible skaters and former skaters as to whom they thought should have won on the basis of two fine performances, Denis would probably come out ahead. I think Denis is fine about taking silver, but figure skating on that night lost out big time.

    I noticed at least two familiar names on the petition: Timothy Goebel and Debi Thomas. There are probably many people who feel Denis deserved to win, but may disagree with putting together this type of petition, yet ended up signing anyway. Not necessarily because they think the results will be changed, but as a show of support for the possibility of meaningful change in the sport of figure skating. In any case, I think the results of the men's competition are somewhat more laughable than this petition. Again, this is re the judging, and not Patrick ... It's not about hating on Patrick. After all, Patrick apologized for a reason.
     
    Vash01 and (deleted member) like this.
  24. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    Very well said.
     
  25. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    Oh, a multi mistake Carolina would certainly lose the segment to a clean Gracie - didn't Chan lose the FS segment to Denis? - but I would expect Kostner to score high on the program components though.

    If Jeremy Abbott, at Skate America last year, with two falls and a time violation deduction could beat on the PC mark a Konstantin Menshov with no falls and two clean quadruples by nearly ten points, maybe Carolina would be entitled to a few more points over Gracie for her components.

    Aren't the judges supposed to follow the same rules whether they judge Olympic Games or Grand Prix events?

    Fernandez in the free skate at 2013 Euros scored 89+ on the program components as opposed to 82+ at the Grand Prix Final. Fernandez is a phenom to me because I don't know of any other skater who would have improved his/her PC mark by as much as seven points in a matter of just one month while skating the same program with the same technical content and pretty much the same execution of the elements, as indicated by his total elements score.:)
     
  26. Milana

    Milana New Member

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    Because he's Fernandez, not Patrick Chan. If he's Chan, I'm sure you'll find out something to justify his score. Say, Grand Prix Final and EC are two different competitions. And maybe his PCS before the EC weren't marked correctly.
     
  27. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    I too thought Fernandez was a little bit undermarked on PCS at the Grand Prix Final. His FS performance was stronger than at Skate Canada the same season. But as you said, different competitions, different judging panels, so perhaps I shouldn't compare.

    If you are a Fernandez fan - btw, I like Fernandez - you surely remember his bad FS skate at 2012 NHK with two falls and some mistakes on other jumps. By contrast, Ross Miner skated his program cleanly at that competition, with a quad and two 3As - he did get an edge call but this mistake didn't disrupt the flow of the program. Did Fernandez lose the components mark to Miner? No, he did not.

    I wasn't justifying Chan's marks but trying to suggest that it might not be fair to pick on just the scores of the World Championships winner. That's all.:)
     
  28. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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  29. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    Quote from the article:

    The expert opinions!:rofl: We all know how much Johnny knows about IJS.:yikes: Todd Eldredge was a 6.0 skater. I doubt he understands much about this system. Even Kurt Browning who is constantly involving in current skating TV commentating admited that after practicing his "singing in the rain" program for his Pro-Am competition last year, he now understood more about the judging system and appreciated and admired more for what the current skaters do on ice.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2013
  30. Kasey

    Kasey Loving on babies!

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    Denis Ten is a class act. Hoping he continues this positive success, he's been a great skater to watch for years already.