Award a Gold Medal to Denis Ten for his Performance at the 2013 World Figure Skating

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by lala, Mar 25, 2013.

  1. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Lets see I could fee symphaty for starving children around the World who never really had a shot at life, people in Middle Eastern countries murdered for either being gay, being jewish, or being women, or being forced to have babies at 11 or marry men they dont even know at 12; or feel sorry for a spoiled brat who gets handed World and Olympic titles, fame and fortune, and a place in history all on a silver platter simply for showing up, even if he falls on his ass 5 or 6 times each time out, which even the bottom finishers at World events typically dont do. I will choose the former thank you.

    Well atleast he is in touch with reality about one thing. That is refreshing to know.
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  2. Eladola

    Eladola Active Member

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    I think the Petitioners might also believe that other than the falls in the Free skate,
    The gap of 7 points between the 2 performances in the SP is in part because of reputation and federation differences ... ?

    I realize it feels weird for us to have someone's scores bloated too high who hasn't even been on the radar,
    But i would understand some people not really caring or accepting of that too, Especially ones who don't follow as closely
  3. bek

    bek Guest

    Wow Judy,I really disagree here. I don't like some of Patrick's comments but I don't think its right to call the guy names. Most of us don't know Patrick and I don't think its fair to denigrate his character. Its one thing to disagree with his results, and or to be meh on his comments its another to start going into personal attacks about him as a human being. I have never met him, and so I can't judge him either way. He could be a really nice guy for all you know with perhaps a foot in his mouth disease! Besides probably most top athletes have to be convinced they are the best...Patrick worked incredibly hard to get as far as he has in this sport and to have those absolutely gorgeous skating skills.

    I'm not going to start calling him names because I think the judges are a little to nice to him.

    Patrick just skates, he doesn't mark himself, and I doubt he even (when I criticize his comments) really saw how Denis or others skated.

    I feel sorry for all of the skaters in this mess and that includes Chan.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 26, 2013
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  4. walei

    walei Well-Known Member

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    I know JJ has me on his ignore list but now I also feel sorry for him.
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2013
  5. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    For me someone who has publicly done all of:

    1. Mouths off about someone putting a reef on their head in the kiss and cry at the Games (Weir), which is obviously none of his business.
    2. Whines excessively about others scores (Joubert 2009 Worlds and into 2009-2010 season) when they themselves are one of the most held up skaters in history.
    3. Crows out loud in the kiss and cry at a grand prix event "the judges really wanted to give me that score" after a 3 fall performance nets a monstrous score (Skate Canada 2010).
    4. Publicly states your competitor who doubled a jump made as many mistakes as your 4 or 5 major error performance.
    5. Whines about not getting enough attention from your own country, and contemplates outloud if they were Chinese instead (last year).
    6. States that quads are not everything and disses others for being only about quads, then upon mastering the quad mocking others for not doing enough quads (eg- criticizing Takahashi for not doing a quad in the short program in fall of 2010).

    Is a spoiled brat. That is my opinion and I dont have to spend every waking moment with him to have determined that, nor do I have to defend it to anyone. I am not anywhere close to the first one who has referred to him as such on this forum alone, never mind beyond the tiny speck in the World that is this forum.
  6. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    If you can't even bother to distinguish between a reef and a wreath......
  7. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Although I don't agree with the petition (we certainly don't want results determined by popular vote) nor will I think it will actually make a difference, I do think something is said that the very few journalists who even write about skating are bringing attention to the discontent about the Mens 2013 Worlds results. Couple that with some of the negativity we've seen in social media by actual skaters who do have credibility whether you agree with them or like their skating, and we have a PR nightmare for skating.

    Of course this negativity won't last long and people will forget about it once the Olympic season starts, but I have a feeling if something like this happened during the Olympics with much more media scrutiny and viewers, then skating is going to have to prepare itself for an onslaught of negative attention. Ignoring it or telling people to know the rules better won't make the problem go away. Like it or not, the masses' perception of a sport do matter in terms of interest (which is already to the point where skating is just a niche sport) and credibility no matter how fair or justifiable the results are to the internet skating fans/"experts." With the code the way it is now, I think they need to prepare for it now just in case.
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2013
  8. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely not. I am aware of the views of many on message boards that Carolina would be constantly held up by the judges - btw, I remember you disagreed with them in another thread where you said Kostner was probably held up only in 2008.

    You won't hear me complain if the ISU decides to introduce more severe deductions for falls so long as they are applied to all the skaters. I assume that a harsher penalty would make the skaters work more on their consistency on the jumps and if it's transitions that get in the way of consistency, let them do away with most of those transitions. After all, how many casual viewers of figure skating can recognize transitions or appreciate the difficulty of skating and jumping with transitions? Maybe figure skating should be made more audience-friendly? I mean I suppose most of us figure skating fans can understand empty but clean programs winning medals and titles but I suspect way fewer of us can understand complex choreographies winning medals with falls. Maybe Chan should stop pushing himself? Yes, I do think he is pushing himself, the speed and flow he carries skating into the quadruple/triple in the FS for instance is mind-blowing, and he moves his arms while gliding towards the take-off spot and he skates on one foot and has a very short entry. But I don't think it's worth the trouble, the type of skating Chan proposes is not successful with the general audiences because he falls. I've noticed quite a few people don't even agreee with the official judged that Chan would have the best skating skills, for one thing they don't see anything special in his skating and for another, are those judges kidding me? How can a skater who falls have better skating skills than a skater who doesn't fall? Chan is held up because, to quote Johnny Weir, when you fall you lose. Simple as that.

    So let the ISU make the changes they deem fit for most of the fans to be happy with the results, especially at the coming Olympics.:D I suppose that a clean Gracie Gold would be a much more acceptable Olympic medalist than a flawed Carolina Kostner.:)
  9. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Lately, it seems that this is what a lot of 'fans' (read: morons) would like the sport to become.

    That is because the 'many' are ignorant fools who should get shot. Honestly, this whole Worlds bullshit is turning me into a fascist.

    If you aren't able to notice that Kostner has the best skating skills in the world, skates to the music very well and has the most complex programs (honestly the gap between her and the other Ladiezzz in that regard is just huge), then you should either get your eyesight tested or go get a clue.
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2013
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  10. Eladola

    Eladola Active Member

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    If you think that by Olympics, If Gold goes clean with everything she will lose to a multi mistake Kostner, I think you're mistaken,
    All things considered .
  11. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    haha, whats with the roll eyes? Im hardly a Kostner uber.
    I think there should be harsher penalties for falls... even if were to hurt my gal Mao.
  12. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    Good thing about this thread and petition, I now know the posters better.;)
  13. Jaana

    Jaana Well-Known Member

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    Ten did not skate to an equally difficult freeskate choreography as Chan did, and also Chan had a quad-triple combination plus a quad, Ten only a quad. Ten deserved to win the freeskate, which he did. He did not deserve to win the whole competition, although the result came very close and Ten would have won it by doing a liiiittle bit more.
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  14. EricRohmer

    EricRohmer New Member

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    This.
  15. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    And Ten seemed over the moon about his silver medal, as did Fernadez about his bronze. I think both are happier than Chan is, with medals that mean more to them. Especially Ten - he had two skates of his life and delivered two signature programs that people will want to watch over and over again. And earned a medal that no one, and Ten most of all, saw as likely.

    I doubt he is feeling sorry for himself. Chan OTOH is feeling persecuted, regardless of whether or not one thinks he should. He hasn't won Olympic Gold yet and I'm sure he knows it is by no means a sure thing. More stress for him than for the other two.
  16. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    As Harry Truman said: "if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen".

    I think fans feel rather helpless about all of this, thus the petition. Maybe it is an ill conceived idea, but I guess they feel they are at least doing something.
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  17. clarie

    clarie Well-Known Member

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    Good one :)
  18. Dave of the North

    Dave of the North Well-Known Member

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    There will be no changes to the scoring system until after the Olympics. In that case the only thing callers can do is be more strict on Chan for URs etc. But that's not something he does very often. (more strictness on URs will hurt Takahashi and Reynolds more than Chan) So the only other thing they can do is be more strict with handing out +2/+3 or back off on the PCS marks *if* he falls. There will be nothing official about this, but a lot of whispering behind the scenes. In that case Chan's strategy should be to double some jumps if he at all feels any risk of falling. He will still have enough margin to win and everyone will be happy that the OC didn't fall. :EVILLE:
  19. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    judgejudy, if that's the case, you could also spend more time bitching about the starving children, murdered Middle Eastern people, and the atrocious treatment of women in the world as opposed to Chan, who gets World and Olympic titles handed to him on a silver platter (though you've mocked him in the past for his lack of fame or fortune due to the decline, so I don't know why you threw that in their), but I suspect that you don't.
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  20. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    Snarks aside, this is actually the likely outcome. Not for Chan necessarily but for the competition. The pressure will lead judges to feel it necessary to mark down by more a skater who falls. The best skater who has one fall will lose to a skater with either less skill overall or less challenging content.

    And then the screaming about how its such a scandal will start up once again and figure skating will go down another notch.
  21. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    I am pretty sure Chan stole Judgejudy's chickens and peed in his garden!;)
  22. query5

    query5 New Member

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    Why not. It,seems only Candaians can\ have right to petition change iutcome. Seems like not to long ago thatthey bitched regarding a certain pair team who skated clean other mesessed,up abit even though claimed harder program . Canada CLAIMED CORRUPT JUDGING then. Nothing NEW Since U.S. FANS WAS CLAIMING CORRUPY JUDGING ALL ALONG. Did they Listen to us No. So now someone wants to petition for Dennjs why not, i think some fans are jeslt
    jealous didnt
    think of it first I know I would have done for Michelle if I thought i would have done any good.
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2013
  23. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    lol I don't think I was talking to you but rolling eyes because I couldn't imagine Kostner not winning Europeans with the great programs she has had this season, the amazing quality of her skating and her superior presentation.

    Mao doesn't usually fall, her technical mistakes are of a different nature, so a more severe deduction for falls wouldn't hurt her often.:)

    That would actually be a good strategy for any skater if the judges decide to punish falls more harshly, doubling or singling jumps if they feel the take-off or the position in the air is not ideal for them to do three rotations and land the element cleanly. We would probably see more popping but most likely less falling.

    If it's such a scandal that Chan won Worlds (due to the short progam), I would assume not many people would complain if the judges marked down by more skaters who fall and the best skater with the most challenging content loses if he/she falls to a skater with less skill or less difficult content who skates cleanly because that's what most people wanted, no?
  24. Emdee

    Emdee Well-Known Member

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    Love this one!
    Yes certainly reflects on the writer!
  25. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    People don't agree and people wouldn't agree on the specific circumstances if that happened. The dream that a judging system and judging implentation can be created that will forever quell the din of complaints about figure skating outcomes just isn't realistic. Its never happened and never will.

    Should figure skating keep trying to improve how the system is designed and implemented? Absolutely. And a lot of good suggestions have been made in discussions here at FSU over the past two weeks. I don't know the best way to influence the ISU on this, but I think there's a more reasoned ground than the petition linked in this thread to do so.
  26. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    If it makes some of you feel better Chan will likely retire after Sochi and then all will be right with your universe. Because from where I'm sitting I don't think anything is going to make some of you happy until he is gone because love him or hate him the guy is a skating prodigy and because of that he is going to score well. So find a quiet corner somewhere, rock yourself back and forth and know that it will all be over in a year.

    As for me. I'm just going to appreciate what he brings to the table (regardless of where he lands on or off the podium) and be thankful I recognized and enjoyed it while it was happening.
  27. Mayra

    Mayra Well-Known Member

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    The simple solution to this would be to have judges stop judging PCS as one mark. There are 5 judging criteria in PCS but you wouldn't know it because nobody has the guts to show variation in scoring. The majority of judges box skaters into scoring brackets and SS, TR, CH, IN and PE rarely varies between 1 point. As of now, if the judges think your SS's are in the 7 or 8's, then everything else will follow within 1 point(usually less). It doesn't matter if you have an empty program and your choreography is a joke *cough* Joubert *cough*, you will be judged in the 7/8's thus holding the skater up. Likewise, just because you land 3 quads in a program doesn't mean you deserve high 7's or 8's in SS.

    This could still leave a skater like Chan with potentially a one fall advantage over a lesser skater and/or a skater with lesser content who skates lights out. JMO
  28. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    Its possible if this outrage has reached enough of a fever pitch that Patrick may have now lost any chance at a gold medal Sochi, if the judges are more afraid of outcry if he wins than if he doesn't. The easy way out of this for the ISU is to have Patrick not win in Sochi so he may be biased against now.
  29. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    I think there is pretty strong agreement that the PCS is not properly implemented by the judges. It seems to me that this is the kind of thing the ISU needs to be pressured on, rather than any specific result. Protesting a specific result tends to muddy all the issues in my estimation. I think the focus needs to be on remedying the perceived problems going forward.
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  30. Dave of the North

    Dave of the North Well-Known Member

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    All hail Kevin Reynolds, Olympic Champion...
  31. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    :cheer: :cheer: :cheer:
  32. Eladola

    Eladola Active Member

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    You make it sound bad, But if someone competed better on the event, Yes, They should at least be considered the win, Even if they're "lesser" skaters,

    And honestly, I Wouldn't mind having either silver Medal winning performance from the latest "Chan worlds" as my champion, Probably could even live with a couple of the Bronze ones,
    But maybe for you if Takahashi, Kozuka, Ten or even Hanyu or Fernandez ended up winning those competitions, They would've been lesser champions,

    It's not like there wouldn't be ANYONE of great skills stepping up
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2013
  33. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    if the judging (especialy the horrible judging of the mens singles of the last 6 years) continues as it is nothing will be right in figure skating for a long time no matter who is skating.
  34. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Very true. I believe the only country awarded a second gold medal from any judged sport is Canada, and they have had it happen for them TWICE no less. Canadians are the biggest crybabies when it comes to judging, but go mum when it is them who get the gifts.
  35. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I'm sure he will win if he skates clean. I don't see anyone in skating taking issue with that. However, what I do think will happen is his scores in the SP will be kept very close to the others, and that his PCS marks will take a bigger hit than usual if he falls, opening up the chance for others to take it if they skate cleaner (still needing an overall polished and strong set of performances with good content to be Olympic champion). The main issue with this Worlds was that he built up such a big lead in the SP that he was impossible to catch, and a healthy PCS in the LP kept him competitive.

    Now some people would say that keeping him close in the SP and dinging him on PCS if he falls isn't a bad thing at all - they'd say that's what should have been happening all along, so if politiking against him in the media is what gets the judges there, great. Others would say that it's unfair to keep Chan artificially close to others because what he does is that good that he deserves those leads - he's just that much better than everyone else and legitimately deserves a cushion.

    For me it's a matter of degree - he's better, but four falls better? Two falls? It's hard to quantify. Ironically I think this year's result was not as bad as last year's. Ten was within 3 points of Chan's PCS in the LP, which is reasonable. Last year, I cannot understand how Chan deserved almost 5 PCS points more than Takahashi, whose performance was stronger than Ten's in 2013, IMO. Last year the difference between Chan and Takahashi was greater than the difference between Takahashi and Amodio/Joubert in PCS and I can't justify that.

    So I actually see that the judges already are making somewhat of an effort to get Chan's scores down to earth this year, but it wasn't enough for Ten to overtake him, either because Ten isn't quite that good, or because he doesn't have enough reputation (I would give him some green blobs if I could ;)).

    I guess my problem with the system is that I see where Chan's scores may be justified, I see where Ten winning may be justified, but I don't have confidence that the numbers input by the judges are strictly based on the criteria and what they see on the ice, rather than being due to politiks and reputation. So I can't quite agree with people that say the result can be explained by reviewing the protocols or that all is fair because Ten won the LP (but did he win by the right margin?).
  36. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    This obsession with skating skills over everything else is the only real joke. Yes Kostner has great skating skills, as does Chan, but skating skills is only ONE aspect of the sport. A very important one yes, but it does not override all else. The skating skills excuse to give medals to Chan and Kostner (in Chan's case always gold) no matter how many times they fall, or any other deficits relative to their competitors sometimes falls short of making the mark. In Kostner's case I do think she deserved the silver overall at Worlds this year despite her mistakes (her SP score was quite the gift mind you) but only a Kostner fangirl or Cinquanata himself would deny she has had some blatant gifts in the past (eg- 2008 Worlds, a couple times at Europeans, maybe 2005 Worlds). She does not reach Chan's stratosphere of "held up" but she is one of the more overscored skaters through her career nonetheless.
  37. bmcg

    bmcg Well-Known Member

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    I think it would be great for the sport of figure skating if people like you started watching tennis instead.
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  38. Ozzisk8tr

    Ozzisk8tr Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree bmcg. There's irritating, then there's "jesus h christ, will this person ever shut up?"
  39. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    If my comments bother you that much that is what an ignore list is for, which incidentally is where you two idiots are now going, Adios and good riddance.
  40. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    If you "believe" maybe you should make sure before posting. When was the second gold medal?