Award a Gold Medal to Denis Ten for his Performance at the 2013 World Figure Skating

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by lala, Mar 25, 2013.

  1. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    It is interesting to wonder if any of the Europeans feel the total dominance of Virtue & Moir and Davis & White is in anyway political, or they readily concede those two teams are in another league (which I feel they are btw, but I have no idea what they think).

    It is interesting as you said what comes around goes around. What annoys me about Canadians in figure skating is we potray ourselves the goody do goods of the sport and everyone else, especialy the big bad Russians and ex Soviets, as the big bad conspiritators; and that is so far from true it isnt even funny, as much of the last 10 years, and 5 years especialy, has proven with a capital C.
     
  2. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    Wonder how it feels like to be a :cat: scratching on someone's favourites ..... Should be real fun judging from FSU :biggrinbo
     
  3. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I remember seeing posts with interviews with Russian coaches basically taking the other league view, but that has been a year or more ago.
     
  4. PeterG

    PeterG Hanyuflated

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    By gosh, those kids sure all did their darnedest out there. Let's give the whole top 24 a gold medal!!! :cheer2: :cheer:

    Chan has not retired yet. :saint:
     
  5. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    :eek: ....... Wonder what will happen if he decides not to retire! :p
    We need new targets ....:soapbox:
     
  6. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Plushenko has been a target since 1999 and is still one. I'm sure if he can handle it, Chan can too. ;)
     
  7. PeterG

    PeterG Hanyuflated

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    Maybe Denis Ten will win Olympic gold next year and then we'll kick the **** out of him until 2018. :)
     
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  8. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    BUGS NEED FRESH BLOOD TO SUCK! Plushenko's getting stale and Chan's an overdose.

    BUGS love new blood. Ten's should taste yummy. A more varied cuisine may attract more bugs. Does female blood taste just as good? :saint:
     
  9. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    How do you define a bug? Someone who is trollish in general or just someone who doesn't agree with Chan's wins and is/was vocal about it?
     
  10. PeterG

    PeterG Hanyuflated

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    I believe the rules state that if one posts in nine or less of the "Chan Is Surely A Warlock For Winning" threads, then chances are they just might have a valid point. However, once they have posted in ten or more of these threads, then they are approaching bug/troll territory.

    I must admit I have not read all of the small-print, however... :shuffle:
     
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  11. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Isn't Tim Goebel and some other skaters (and maybe coaches too) on there as well?


    ETA:

    My Gosh, the Chan fans are negatively charged-up and defensive (surprise, surprise). Jeez, the petition really isn't about Patrick! It's about fairness in the judging. And obviously, many folks are interested in taking a stand on that.

    It doesn't matter whether or not any of those who signed individually like or dislike Patrick or his skating. I think most of the high profile people who signed are interested in the sport's integrity and would be just as supportive of Patrick if the tables were turned (Fat Chance ;)). It's not so much either about awarding Denis Ten gold at this point, which is obviously not going to happen. It's about making a protest and letting their voices be heard.

    But yeah, go ahead and continue being outraged for poor Patrick. Your defensive ire is only fuel for further spotlighting Patrick's own embarrassment at his Worlds lp performance. Meanwhile though, PChid is having a blast on tour with his skating friends.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2013
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  12. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but it isn't the same situation. Plush has a HUGE and loud fan camp, they support him all the time. When he won the competitions he received a big celebration in the arena all over the World. Plus the vast majority agreed with his victories. ( I don't think he read this forum..;) )
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2013
  13. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    You would know all about charged up and defensive wouldn't you?

    Seriously, how do you reconcile the way you post about Chan with the way you piss and moan about people who don't worship the ground Weir walks on. I'm genuinely intrigued about how you do that mental gymnastics. Preferably in less than 5000 words. Condescending quotes from literature optional.
     
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  14. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Aha! But obviously you are the one carrying some kind of torch/ grudge, antmanb. :lol: Try taking a deep breath and reconciling your posts with your own ego. Life's way too short my friend, or should I say, my enemy? ;) And btw, Johnny Weir has absolutely nothing to do with any of this.

    Skaters who read half of the stuff posted on FSU about either Chan or Weir probably laugh their asses off. :watch:
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2013
  15. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    I was asking a genuine question though, and the fact you didn't answer it....speaks for itself ;)
     
  16. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Yeah right, just as your ego speaks for itself. :yawn:

    Besides being off-topic, you seem to have the old news blues. Even though it’s really not necessary for me to explain my perceptions and opinions, I have on a few occasions responded to similar knee-jerk questions posed by similarly self-righteous posters acting as if they somehow struck gold and are all het up about digging till they keel over or reach China. Truthfully, if the answer to your genuinely intrigued 'gotcha' question is sooo very important to you and you need to know, ohhh you need to know in excruciatingly exact detail, look it up in the archives. :blah:


    Okay, you pompous tempter you antmanb, I'm just gonna bow to my ego too. :lol:

    Genuinely and for your benefit, antmanb, I will be as brief as possible in repeating just a few rudimentary nuggets in the highly doubtful possibility that doing so might provide you with some beneficial insight: Johnny Weir and Patrick Chan have completely different careers and I suspect to a large degree, different fans. And Chan fans are more plentiful and more vocal on FSU than Johnny fans. In addition, on FSU there has in the recent past largely been a lot of personal criticism of Johnny re his choices, his costumes, his sexuality, his off-ice lifestyle, his rebelliousness, his clothes, his quotes, etc., most of the time having nothing to do with his skating. OTOH the furor surrounding Patrick Chan has usually been about some of his more notorious mistake-filled wins, along with some of his unfortunate comments to the press. And as has continued to crop up in this thread, it’s about the excessive defensiveness and possessiveness of some of Chan’s fans. It seems to me that Patrick seriously needs no defending, especially in a thread that isn’t even about him.

    Whatever I have to say about Johnny, Patrick or anything else has to do with who I am in all my personal contradictions. And in turn, whatever any poster here has to say about either of these two uniquely different figure skaters reveals more about that poster and not necessarily anything about Johnny or Patrick. As I’ve also said in the past, Johnny Weir has never needed any defending from me. Nor do I need to defend my love for him. What I feel about Johnny, speaks for itself. I have spoken up in the past, and I will continue to speak up whenever I choose to about how I feel on any topic. Furthermore, I don't need to reconcile any of my opinions about figure skaters. It's generally more beneficial to strive to be open-minded and to expand awareness. You obviously have very short-sighted, holier than thou, as well as misconstrued opinions about what I post. ETA: I don't care a whit who worships or doesn't worship the ground Johnny Weir walks on. I'll leave that worry to his detractors, including you.

    Much like Johnny Weir’s amateur career is bound to be moving on, it’s probably time that you and like-minded others do too from your intense obsession for aftershocks’ love-of-Johnny. :p

    I welcome the day that ISU judges and the more overwrought Chan fans might retire from their obsession too, whether or not Patrick wins Olympic gold. Or maybe their respective retirements depend upon him winning OGM. :duh:


    In any case, the petition is NOT about Patrick Chan and not even close to being about Johnny Weir. It's about the judges' decision in the men's event at 2013 Worlds and about IJS and about Denis Ten's extraordinary one-two punch performance to The Artist that touched the hearts of many skating fans.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2013
  17. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    Oh yeah ..... ;)
     
  18. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Ah yeah, surprise surprise, spiky! ;)
     
  19. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    Yeah you're right, I couldn't be bothered to read what you wrote - I doubt many people bother given the length of most of your posts.

    The upshot is you are defensive and challenging to anyone who posts nothing but positive comments about Weir. Even fans of his skating giving constructive criticism are spared none of your condescending "it says more about you than it does about Weir" "I know you are,but what am I" craptacular comments and pseudo-psychobabble BS that you come up with. Yet despite being like a dog witha bone on those posters, you do frequently write fairly incendiary and purposefully button pushing comments about Chan, and yet you don't see the hypocrisy in that?

    Simple way to ask - if you changed the word "Chan" in the things you write about him with the word "Weir" and ask yourself how you would react. You may actually begin to understand the reason I asked.

    The reason it's relevant to this thread is because the first post of yours I quoted was being rude about Chan fans, and it came across as totally hypocritical given how you react when you favourite skaters are criticsed. if you can't see how that is relevant then.....
     
  20. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Your own irrelevant, personally conflicting, contradictory and self-interested take, antmanb. ;)

    Ho, ho, ho "you can't be bothered to read," but are genuinely bothered to ask. Surprise, surprise ... :lol: Your second paragraph above is completely puzzling. What gives re your Weir-itis in respect to aftershocks??? If you don't read my posts in any case, what's you effin' beef in the first place??? Your craptacular Weir fixation is seriously worse than you imagine mine to be. :eek:

    In the second place, negative perceptions to the contrary, I don't worry about Chan fans in the way you apparently are bearing a long-standing, subversive but yet not so secretive grudge against me for my Weir(d) opinions! I'll have it out with a Chan fan or two or three, but I'm also able to examine my viewpoints and at least make an effort to accept the fact that Chan as a person has nothing to do with the judges' decisions and to realize that Chan is completely separate from, if not opposed to his more boisterously overwrought fans. That doesn't mean I'll ever have more admiring rather than critical things to say about Chan. I've often criticized Chan's comments and his skating, and made fun of some journalists' and others' OTT for-and-against Chan comments. Furthermore, I don't tear Chan down in the personal way that Weir has been critiqued for everything imaginable, including simply existing. As I've said umpteenth times ad nauseam, I tend to refrain from voicing criticisms of Weir on FSU, since there's so much in that vein to go around here (which doesn't mean I've never posted any critical comments of Weir on FSU). Surprise, surprise, indeed! I'm certainly not surprised if you beg to differ on my self-assessment and on my perceptions re these or any other topics. But, so what? Who Cares?!

    Obviously you don't care, antmanb, about the specifics of anything I have to say because your mind was made up a long time ago for whatever reason. I never try to make out like I'm perfect and my opinions are above all others. They are just my opinions, take them or leave them. The fact that you or anyone else interprets what I say in a knee-jerk holier-than-thou fashion, is each of you guys’ own exclusive business/ problem. Fact of the matter is, all of our egos are acting and reacting based on our individual experiences, conditioning, perceptions, likes and dislikes, vanity and pride. Par for the course, if you term that last bit psychobabble cuz you don't have a clue what it means.

    My post #281 is in direct response to several posts on the previous page, especially to spikydurian’s overly extreme and defensive reactions to N_Halifax’s innocuous #261 post. IMO, N_Halifax's post has nothing to do with spikydurian’s inflammatory albeit apparently tongue-in-cheek inference that N_Halifax and others who signed the petition are against Patrick Chan and against “Kanadians.”

    Ah well, keep on digging antmanb, but watch out re wasting too much energy. And you may as well drop the offended, innocent-bystander act. This stuff is clearly OT here and definitely not even worth taking to pm either. Get over it and get on with something more valuable and meaningful maybe. Alas, me too, eh? :D

    It’s a hard thing to do, but we surely might all benefit by trying to get over our own egos. :kickass:


    This bears repeating: The petition is NOT about Patrick Chan and not even close to being about Johnny Weir. It's about the judges' decision in the men's event at 2013 Worlds and about IJS and about Denis Ten's extraordinary one-two punch performance to The Artist that touched the hearts of many skating fans.
     
  21. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    What extraordinariness about Ten's skating was that he has skated two no-fall programs compared with his rather normal fall-filled skatings at competitions. What was wrong about this petition was that it was asking for the change of the result without having any evidence, not to mention any reliable evidence, to show what the judges did wrong based on the current system. To compare 2013 worlds with 2002 Olympic pairs scandal was truly laughable. It's showed the petition starter's lack of understanding on the real issues at hand, and what truly needs to be done for the goodness sake of figure skating. This petition is a clownish act. The rest need not to be said.;)

    And you might be surprised that if we really go through the details in the criteria, Denis Ten might get even less than what he has gotten at 2013 Worlds.:lol:

    After the petition starter changed the signature goal from 10,000 down to 1,000, it still cannot reach its goal. What a pity!:p
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2013
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  22. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    ITA
     
  23. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    If you read the entire thread, you will see many posters who thought Ten's performance was indeed extraordinary, but don't agree with the idea of awarding him a gold medal. Someone can love Ten's performance but also not agree with the premise behind the petition.
     
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  24. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    IMO, it’s rather clownish and irrational [as in post #262 in this thread] to list the names of some of the high profile signers of the petition and suggest they are against Patrick Chan, Skate Canada and “Kanadians,” and thus are ready to :lynch: Cinquanta and the ISU.

    There is plenty of evidence that many fans and many people involved in the sport of figure skating and even those directly involved with developing the current scoring system realize that there are problems with IJS/ CoP. Of course that doesn’t necessarily equate to each and everyone who feel that way happening to agree or disagree with this petitioner’s take on this or any other issue.

    I repeat: It seems to me that Denis and his coach are quite happy with his competitive achievement at 2013 Worlds and are clearly pleased with his silver medal. In a recent TSL interview, the main thing Frank Carroll questioned about the judging was the curious way Denis’ PCS scores fluctuated from sp to fp when in fact Denis performed equally beautifully in both performances, and one could argue, slightly better in the sp.

    The petitioner and those who signed the petition for whatever reason have a right to voice a protest and to take a stand whether or not there is a majority who either disagree with the way the petition is worded or disagree with its improbable goal. It’s easy to sit on the sidelines and b**ch and throw dirt at people willing to take a stand on a controversial issue.

    Why don’t you tell us, Eyre, or better yet, tell Cinquanta "what truly needs to be done for the goodness sake of figure skating." :p


    But unfortunately you did say the rest …

    Denis’ performances at 2013 Worlds were very pleasantly surprising, not to mention tour de force and exciting to witness. I’m sure more than a few people doubted how Denis might ultimately fare in the fp, but I’ll also bet plenty of people were cheering him on and holding their breath in amazement. And there are probably those who always knew Denis had this kind of talent and are likely over the moon that he overcame some personal challenges to actually show on the ice what he has in him.

    No matter what his future holds, Denis has provided many skating fans with some of the most memorable moments of the 2012-2013 season. Worlds 2013 is a personal victory for Denis regardless of the scoring outcome and regardless of your dismissive put-downs of Denis’ skating and his past performances. I think, Eyre, that you may find yourself along with perhaps a handful of other mindless, one-dimensional Chan fans in the minority re your apparent disregard for Denis Ten, who is very evidently a talented figure skater and a remarkably gracious young man. Patrick Chan is also a talented figure skater and often a charming young man who seriously doesn’t deserve some of his constantly on the warpath overly defensive fans.


    You state the obvious. But that doesn’t necessarily mean there aren’t more than 10,000 hardcore skating fans and casual fans who after watching the men’s performances at 2013 Worlds didn’t think, feel, and/ or believe Denis deserved gold. The difference is there may be huge numbers of people who feel Denis should have won on the basis of his performances, but fewer who feel the result should be overturned after the fact. Plenty of current and former skaters obviously felt Denis deserved to win, and some voiced their opinions too which indeed is somewhat surprising since figure skaters are traditionally conditioned to accept the judges’ decisions and TPTB’s decisions, no matter how controversial.


    Okay now, (even tho’ there will surely continue to be ire against IJS/ CoP, and judging controversies galore in skating) for the moment at least, what’s done is done on all sides of this issue, and we’re well into the off-season. Lots of the skaters sure seem to be having fun preparing new programs and skating in shows. :D :summer:
     
  25. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    There is no way of knowing how many hold these opinions, so there's no reasonable basis to speculate that there are "huge numbers" on one side and "fewer" on the other.

    I don't see "plenty" of names of current skaters on the petition. And of the "former" skaters who signed the petition, most of them are no longer intensely involved with the sport, so they have nothing to lose by expressing their opinions about this matter.
     
  26. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    And there are probably even a bigger number who couldn't give a shit either way as well.
     
  27. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Yep, indeed overedge, I don't see anyone saying that "plenty of current skaters" signed the petition by name. OTOH, Denis has received support, encouragement and congrats from many of his peers and from former skaters, some of whom tweeted their opinions of the Worlds results. I doubt there’s any doubt that a large number of viewers enjoyed Denis' performances and thought he might win or feel he deserved to win. Once again, obviously that doesn't mean everyone who feels Denis should have won are in support of the petition (or in any way against Patrick Chan). ETA: Even if former skaters who you feel are no longer intensely involved with the sport (whatever that means) have "nothing to lose" by speaking out, that certainly doesn't devalue their opinions, at least IMO.

    Your expressive opinion speaks for itself, Aussie Willy. ;) Thanks for pointing out your disdain re the pointless issue of who cares re the actual numbers of people who have or don't have an opinion about the petition, or who agree or disagree with the petition's premise, which was a distinction brought up by overedge. Of course once I responded, overedge quickly dismissed the topic as unreasonably speculative. :yawn:


    Again, it's the off-season and so many people have moved on already, but whoever continues to feel in the mood and apparently has time on their hands, can continue digging and/ or splitting hairs re my posts which antmanb speculatively doubts many people bother to read. :p

    Yeah, I know Aussie Willy! Redux ... :lol:
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2013
  28. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    People who are called by you as "overly defensive" are indeed not sitting on the sidelines. They are taking a stand and stating clearly what their positions were on the issues. Those people also have the right, haven't they?! Obviously you are non-stoppingly b**ching and throwing dirt at them.:rolleyes:

    Please give me one good reason why should I repeat to you on what many people including myself have already said over and over as if you could not read or have never read them?!

    Obviously I didn't. If you are curious for that, PM me.:D

    This has shown that you are running out of legitimate argue points.:p:D

    ETA:
    Putting him into the place where he belongs was not putting down his skating and his past performances.:p Personally, I have nothing against Denis Ten. He had been one of them on my favorite skaters list and he still is. These blowing out of proportion arguments about his placement are getting old.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2013
  29. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    I don't "feel" that they are less intensely involved - it's a fact. None of the former skaters whose names were mentioned are full-time coaches or active professional skaters. They are still all connected to the sport in various ways, but skating is no longer their main focus or their source of income. And of course their opinions are not meaningless, but they certainly have less reason to fear retribution - like loss of income or reduced opportunities - from speaking out than someone more actively involved in the sport.
     
  30. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Sure, I don’t disagree with the gist of your comments. Obviously we don’t know the names of people who signed the petition anonymously. Apparently no currently active skater or coach signed by name. However, there are some well known currently eligible and former skaters who made comments on Twitter at the time of Worlds 2013 men’s event (questioning the judging). There were direct and indirect comments and retweets by skaters (and skating fans) who felt Denis should have won overall on the basis of his performances. The Twitter comments were discussed on FSU at the time.

    It’s old news at this point, but there were actively involved current and former skaters who expressed via Twitter their opinions and support of Denis after the Worlds fp results. So, some former and current skaters weren’t thinking about fear of retribution in the immediate face of results they found perplexing. I doubt any of the skaters who spoke out are biased against any of the men either. After the sp, there were tweets congratulating both Denis and Patrick on their performances, as well as giving a shout-out to other competitors, including Joubert, Hanyu, Brezina, Misha Ge, et al.

    As far as the petition supporters and even the Twitter comments by skaters, I admire those who go out on a limb to take a stand because they are concerned about judging integrity and are eager to seek for positive change. Sure they might be called bold, short-sighted or stupid, but at least they make attempts to speak out, or to take action and to fight for their beliefs and viewpoints against the entrenched, heads-in-the-sand PTB. In figure skating, it seems to often be a losing battle of course.