Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by lala, Mar 25, 2013.
Do the fans now vote for the placements? What is this - Dancing with the Stars?
Well, good luck with that petition. Anyway, Denis Ten already received a (small) gold World Championship medal for his winning free skate, so he at least has that proof of how his performance ranked against Chan and the rest of the field.
Can we go back in time and award medals to skaters who were "robbed" as well?
Hopefully this thread will head to the Trash Can where it belongs.
As mentioned above, Denis already received a gold "small medal" at the 2013 Worlds for winning the free skate.
The results of the 2013 Worlds were decided by the performances of the skaters in their short and free programs as represented by the scores of the judges and they are now history. Don't bother with useless petitions!
Well, that certainly blows any credibility or objectivity that Monica Friedlander might have had as a figure skating "journalist".
Not to mention that she clearly doesn't understand the difference between what happened at 2013 Worlds and at the 2002 Olympics. If she has evidence of pre-determined results or judging improprieties at 2013 Worlds - *real* evidence, not just "I don't agree with the results" - she would help skating more by revealing that evidence, not by starting petitions.
Oh, God let's hope Linda Fratianne doesn't see this...
I get why people were upset with the result, especially to the untrained eye, I thought when Denis was skating that he was going to win, but it didn't happen. But, people have got to realize that this sport and seriously just get over it. It's a skating competition, not a life-or-death event, things happen. This happened almost two weeks ago now, it's time to move on to other things and look forward to World Team Trophy and what next season will bring.
I have to disagree with this petition as well. Does IJS have it's problems? You betcha. But having petitions to reverse outcomes is a very slippery slope. I'd rather see a petition to get rid of Cinquata as head of the ISU.
And while I'm no fan of Chan, I feel for him here. He'd best skate error-free at the Olympics, because he will be the subject of some nasty backlash if he doesn't and he medals (or wins) anyway.
Is this the first time a petition has actually been started to reverse a decision at a skating competition? Wow! Just wow!
ETA: I started to look through the signatures and this comment was left by someone in Russia who decided not to leave his/her name:
Good to know Canada and the U.S. produces so many fake and forgotten champions.
What a hot mess that petition is!
OMG, this is just ridiculous. I LOVE Patrick's skating and I understand IJS/CoP and so I am comfortable with the result. And I know I am biased here, but these attacks on Patrick are just sickening and heartbreaking. I am all for speaking out against shoddy and/or crooked judging, or a flawed judging system, but I have never, nor will I ever attack the skaters themselves. They all work so hard and without them we wouldn't have our beloved sport. I agree with kylet3, it's time to move on.
I believe this "petition" is the last thing Denis would want. The supporters of this petition should read what he had to say about that many people felt he should have won.
Sigh. Between this petition and most of the few skating journalists left writing about the results, every causal figure skating fan that speaks English is going to think that the judges had some deal going on behind the scenes to automatically figure out how many points to award Chan to make sure he stayed first. And how exactly does that help the sport? It reminds me of Phil Hersh and how he's either 1) claiming that the results are fixed before it even happens (see all of his Tweets about how V/M were going to win, or 2) saying that the results weren't fair but he (and everyone else doing any reporting) can't go into any detail about why they come to this conclusion besides that it's just those awful judges.
I've said this so many times since the actual free skate, but the problem lies within the scoring system itself. And within that, it's only a few small aspects that need tweaking IMO. Many people want to go on and on about how Chan didn't deserve a skating skill mark or a transition mark as high as he did because of the falls. I've countered those arguments so many times (as have others), and even without me, I think we all get the gist that nowhere in the PCS criteria does it address falls as a (severe) hinderance to the score.
However, look at the TES mark. Sure, Chan had two great quads at the beginning of his program. But he also under-rotated and fell on his only triple Axel attempt, while Ten did two beauties (one as a 3+3 combination). Chan also had another fall, a big fall-out, and a doubled jump later in his program, while Ten only doubled one intended jump and not a single element in his free skate received negative GOE. I do think that some of Chan's GOE's are suspicious (+3 and +2's for the final double Axel? Huh?), but all in all, I just think that the punishment for a missed element is not strict enough. I've been saying that since the ISU made the GOE's more lenient in favor of the skater for attempting 'high-risk' elements following the 2010 Olympics. We all remember 2010 Skate Canada and Chan's three-fall short program, don't we?
If we actually tackled getting a point total for what *is* actually completed successfully on the ice vs. a disaster skate and the separation there should be between the two, then all of these people crying about how Chan deserved a 5.00 for skating skills because he spent roughly 2 seconds of his free skate falling wouldn't have much to complain about anymore... well, besides performance/execution, I guess.
I find the petition quite amusing. I did enjoy reading some of the comments. That said, if someone wants to start a petition and folks want to sign it, good for them. Telling people to "get over something" is kind of insulting. It's skating. We've debated Annett vs Linda, Nancy vs Linda, Tara vs Michelle, etc for yrs..We know it's not life or death..but the few skating fans left are still quite passionate. It's worth a chuckle.
Some people just have too much free time on their hands.
Was this petition started by bek?
this is becoming ridiculous.
Seriously. People may hate the whole 'second gold' for SLC, but at least there they had actual reasons to consider there was corrupted judging/collusion. (Ie, a judge having a couple breakdowns in front of witnesses.) There's no evidence at all any judges deliberately collaborated to "give" Chan the win, they used the scoring system as it stands and he came out first overall.
Not unless bek is Monica Friedlander. The "journalist" Monica Friedlander has been whining and bitching about IJS since at least 2008 and has her own blog about saving figure skating. In 2008 Monica was whinging about the death of the K&C because she had apparently had trouble counting and wanted her 6.0's back because math is too much for her pretty little head to grasp.
Honestly Monica (and you must read this forum) it's time to educate yourself and move forward. 6.0 is gone, deal with it and get over it. It's people like you that are ruining figure skating.
No not at all... I didn't even know about it till right now...Hilarious!
Whats done is done in terms of marks. I find it hilarious though... I'm not the type to start petitions. And as for no evidence there was cheating, well did anyone even attempt to look for cheating. The little I know of Salt Lake is that some judged leaned very hard on that French judge to get her to break after if I understand. Maybe she's just crazy too who knows.
But Denis I doubt has powerful people on HIS side to do the same. I'm sorry I have a hard time thinking politics played absolutely no role in this. I suspect there was nothing abnormal about Salt Lake.
The sport could save itself a lot of heartache if it introduced mandatory deductions in P/E and further penalties on falls. Given how subjective this sport is....Not having these things and results like Chan's win hurts its credibility.
The result isn't automatically unfair just because many people were not happy with it......the system is flawed in that it tries to both reward technical content and risk, while also rewarding quality. They don't penalize mistakes enough because they don't want 2010 all over again where safe performances win the gold. Now flawed performances are winning gold so I'm sure revisions will follow. It was the rules and the system that allowed Patrick to win, not politics.
I'm sorry though, but it is absolutely a crock of shit that people just label the result as "politically determined" or "a judging controversy". I will not be signing this petition.
In the end I just feel bad for Patrick. If any of you guys actually knew anything about him, you'd know that he doesn't drink up the results and think he's the best thing since sliced bread. He feels he's the skater that everyone hates, and all he wants to do is have people appreciate his skating (which he obviously works really hard at). Instead, he's almost unanimously hated for results which he has no control over. Try doing what you love and trying to be the best YOU can be and having the entire skating world hate you because you skate, and just so happen to achieve results which many deem unfair.
Poor guy. I'm not a fan/uber, but I feel really bad for the guy. I simply appreciate his skating and empathize with the situation he's thrown into. Put yourself in his shoes for a minute will ya? FYI I know one of his trainers whom he works with on a weekly basis.
people are actually that pissed off about this?
I don't blame Patrick for the results. But Patrick brings on some criticism when he makes comments like Denis made as many mistakes as him. He'd be better off saying I'm not the judges, than saying haha my competition must be kicking themself, and they made as many mess ups as me. What he said about Denis was frankly not true.
Still though you feel sorry for Patrick, what about the other skaters. When Patrick's consistently winning with all of these mistakes, what does it tell the other skaters? It tells them why bother showing up.
Still though the ISU brings these questions on themselves, because other skaters I'm sorry get hit much harder on PCS when they mess up. That's the problem. Why does Dai get hit about 5 points and Chan only 3? Its hard for me to cynically think politics played absolutely no role in this one. I don't buy it. The sport has to much history of playing political games.
Patrick though shouldn't be asked to defend the judging.
And at this point while I won't sign it because the results were made. If fans don't speak up it won't change.
I am a fan, not an uber fan though, but I feel sorry for the guy. I was in the arena for the long program and groaned when the final results came up. I knew all this would happen.
I am no saint, but I really, really try to reserve judgement of people and situations etc. because we honestly never know how we would act in those same ones until we are "in their shoes". And we would probably all act quite differently anyway......even surprising ourselves sometimes. I can't even begin to imagine what a sports star or famous actor or singer goes through in their daily life.
I hope ISU release some documentation on why Patrick's scores were fair given the current system, and throw in some snark like the White House did with those petitions to build a Death Star or to release info on Alien collaborations.
It's people like this who buys that crap that is killing figure skating.
Like, ZOMG!, you guyz, this petition is going to force the ISU to strip P.Chiddy of his World gold for realz; all the shady, skandal filled shenanigans of the ISU will come to an end ONCE AND FOR ALL!!! ................
The French judge was telling other judges in the fall who was going to win the Olympic gold medal. It wasn't just the events at the Olympics that were suspicious.
The fact that there was politicking probably wasn't abnormal. But the skaters didn't perform in ways that supported the predetermined outcomes, and that's what blew the whole thing open. That was abnormal.
While I don't agree with the system that allows results like this, these are the rules! you can win with falls. Do I like it? No. Do we have to accept it? Pretty much.
Wouldn't a petition to change the rules regarding falls/SP % of score be more beneficial?
If harsher penalties had already been in place for falls, Carolina Kostner might not have won Europeans this year and who knows what her placement would have been at Worlds...
BE CAREFUL. TWO CAN PLAY THE GAME.
I'm fine with more penalities for falls, I frankly don't care who it hurts.
But then what we will we fight about on FSU?
I signed the petition. I don't agree with all of it, and I don't think it will do a lick of good. That said, I have nothing left to lose. I've lost all interest in skating in its current form. I watched the ladies free at last year's Worlds, and the men's and ladies' free at this year's Worlds only because of the friends I've made through skating. World Pros and Ice Wars had more legitimacy. With the team competition and vocal music on the way, I'm sure ISU skating will be there soon enough.
I don't think Patrick Chan's win is an isolated case by any means, but it is a scandal that can propel change -- if people want it to. But maybe people either don't care or have given up, and the fans who defend the system are content with watching once-a-year on Latvian TV. That's fine. But good for Monica Friedlander and the people who signed this petition for still caring. I'll stand with you.
Until then, I'll lurk around here waiting for the next Jill Trenary or Laetitia Hubert thread.
I'm still not sure I'll sign the petition. I'd be more likely to sign a petition with significant rule changes, than one that targets taking anyone's gold away.. I may scream about Chan's results, but I wouldn't necessarily take a gold medal from him. However pretty clearly it seems, this is not just Americans "angry about the results." It seems fans all over the world don't like falling all over the place champions....
The concern and caring for figure skating is vastly misplaced in this petition. I'm a Chan Uber, I agree with his scoring given the current system and thus agree with his win. That being said I've also thought a -1 deduction for all fall in a scoring system that gives 150~200 pts for a program is way too low and would be in total support of a revision to the IJS that would have give Denis Ten the Gold. A "fan" should help rightly direct the issue to the IJS itself with educated reasoning but not judging conspiracy or corruption. This petition is stupid and does nothing to help figure skating except driving the sport further into the laughing stock level.
I would rather see Takahashi get his deserved gold medal from the 2012 World Championships. That was an even worse decision. Either way hopefully this is a further sign to the ISU how low they have let figure skating sink with their despicable judging at times of late, especialy when it involves a certain Mr. Chan.
Kostner often places higher than she deserves in the views of many. I hope you arent implying that what you are saying would be a bad thing.
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