Australian dispute over women's Olympic spot to have Court of Arbitration (CAS) hearing

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Dec 3, 2013.

  1. ProgramerUSFS

    ProgramerUSFS Member

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    Yes I totally agree with you. The spot should be taken away then. As I read more into this thread, the fact that Kerry might think of herself somehow a better Australian because she is born and raised in that country is absurd. If you are Australian then it shouldn't matter, and in fact anything outside of this type of thinking is just providing all sorts of criteria. I mean next these small country skaters are going to say that you aren't as good because you train out side of the country part time, etc. If you qualify for the passport then you are a citizen period. And I can tell you that a 17 year old isn't saying, hey dad and mom, lets sue our skating union and bring all sorts of bad press to our sport. Kerry most likely is very disappointed and mommy and daddy are going to help their little angel any way they can. That is what I think is going on and Kerry will skate if she has the chance.
     
    alilou and (deleted member) like this.
  2. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I don't know that it is necessary for the athlete or her coaches to actually be present at a CAS hearing, just her legal team. The part about costing thousands of dollars is right, though, and I agree that if the complaint is dismissed, the complainant should have to pay the costs for both sides.

    Assuming, for the sake of argument, that Han violated an ISA rule by participating at Hershey, then it seems to me to be within the ISA's purview to decide the appropriate punishment, including deciding that skating in a club event did not really violate the spirit of the rule. This leads me to a couple questions I haven't seen answered:

    1) This suit seems to assume the ISA cannot exercise any discretion here and that loss of eligibility is the only allowable response. I don't know the ISA membership rules, but it seems likely to me that their disciplinary procedures would allow them some degree of leeway to consider the severity of the offense and to decide what action to take. If so, then another skater would, legally speaking, not be an "interested party" in these proceedings.

    2) When the ISA sent Han to Nebelhorn, were they already aware of her participation at Hershey? If yes, then IMO they effectively approved after-the fact, and arguably would be estopped from reversing themselves later. In other words, if the ISA was going to regard this as an infraction worthy of loss of eligibility, they needed to do it reasonably soon after learning of the violation, not look the other way until Han had secured them the Olympic spot then pull her eligibility.

    I suspect the answers to these questions may contribute to the ISA's decision to support Han's selection and oppose Kerry's challenge.
     
  3. ProgramerUSFS

    ProgramerUSFS Member

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    You touch on items I am not sure have really been answered. First, lets say that Han skated without an authorization letter at Hersey. Is that a ISU violation or a ISA violation? Maybe Syliva can answer this? I really think that if she violated ISU rules then the spot is gone, but if she violated ISA rules then all is up in the air.
     
  4. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if she has southern cross tattoo also :lol:
     
  5. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    Yes, the key phrase begin "believed". As in "we don't know, but we guess" Therefore, my comment stands... We don't know what competition it is that Kerry's team is complaining about it. It could be that one or it could be another one that happened after Nebelhorn.
     
  6. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    I don't see how this can turn out favourably for Chantelle at all; as in, I don't see how she can be sent, even if she "wins". It does seem like she arguing against Brooklee's selection, but not for hers...
     
  7. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    According to the ISA rules that Sylvia quoted up thread, the appeals process within ISA is first to appeal to a tribunal, which rejected Kerry's complaint, and then to take it to CAS. According to the provisions of CAS (Code 2013 ed),

    This suggests that since the ISA Rules allow for CAS arbitration after the tribunal has announced a decision, Kerry's appeal to CAS is step two of the same complaint, which would have been before Nebelhorn, since she tried to block Han from competing at Nebelhorn through the tribunal process.

    Hershey's has been suggested, because it's the only know competition in which Han competed in which she wouldn't have needed her Federation's signature on the application form, the requirement for Senior B's. The only known exception to this has been Ando, who received direct invitations from Senior B organizers.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2013
  8. Oz_sk8ting_mum

    Oz_sk8ting_mum New Member

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    Seems Chantelle has withdrawn from Senior ladies!
     
  9. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    That's she has. How odd!
     
  10. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    She probably didn't want to lose because she thinks it would look bad for her case.

    Is the Worlds spot based on Nationals? I can't remember...
     
  11. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    Re-posting from the Aussie Skating thread:
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2013
  12. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Silvia!

    Chantelle was at practice this morning...
     
  13. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    Brooklee's SP scores: 1 Brooklee HAN VIC 58.61 33.53 25.08 6.42 6.00 6.50 6.00 6.42 0.00 #7
     
  14. Kelvster

    Kelvster Well-Known Member

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    I would imagine so!!!!!!!!

    Brooklee Han landed 3-lutz-2toe, 3-loop (turn out), and 2A. World (and Olympic) Class stuff! :kickass:
     
  15. can'tsk8

    can'tsk8 Member

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    More poor decisions by Team C Kerry! I am sure she will have all the appropriate paperwork to withdraw! What a shame they don't have the appropriate attitude towards good sportsmanship! Monica MacDonald sure knows how to play politics, Chantelle is a lovely and talented skater, instead of wasting so much time, energy and money on trying to get a spot to the Olympics by playing games and taking someone else's successes from them based on political technicalities, why not invest that same time, money and energy into sending Chantelle to train in the USA with her brother Brendan and his coach Tammy Gambill, maybe then she can try and WIN a spot for herself for 2018 and also feel great about her own personal achievements and success. Just a thought!!!
     
  16. AusTechSpec

    AusTechSpec Member

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    I see we are allowed to talk about this now :rolleyes:

    Chantelle has been complaining about being sick today and yesterday. There was a picture she sent out to a bunch of skaters stating that she "hated being sick at a time like this", through a iphone app.
    As far as how being sick affected her performance leading up to the event, I was at the senior unofficial and she was having no problems at all. Skating very good, wasn't quite about to nail that triple triple we all saw in the video she posted about a month ago, but all the same she looked very fit and ready to go.
    I would assume this withdraw is a strategic move here, not wanting to look bad if she was beat by Brooklee.
     
  17. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    She was well enough to be at practice this morning.

    And Brooklee got a fab score in the SP.
     
  18. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    I thought Brooklee was great tonight.
     
  19. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Whilst what has happened has made me angry and disappointed, the only thing I have an issue with is Chantelle Kerry's team action, taken in this case. I have always admired her skating. Her jump technique isn't great and she doesn't have consistent triples. She usually shows well choreographed, interesting and original programs, however, and she presents them very well. She also has been slowly improving from season to season and the triples are getting there (furthermore, she's never played safe and is always attempting them). If that continues, I have no doubt that she would be at Olympic level in four years.

    And she thinks that she deserves to go to Olympics just because of that? Her brother is training in the US now because the conditions there are superior to those available back home. Does this mean that another skater who is still Australia-based is now more deserving of the Olympic spot than him?

    I was extremely happy to see how well Brooklee Han has managed to skate her short program. This situation must have resulted in a lot of stress for her. But she has managed to prove that she's an Olympic level skater. On the ice.

    Furthermore, Han didn't just skate near clean. She has also upper the technical difficulty of her short program. In the past her SP jumps were 3toe/2toe, 3loop and 2axel. She has now replaced the 3toe with a 3lutz.

    In the end, it's the skating that is doing the talking. :)
     
  20. eurodance2001

    eurodance2001 Active Member

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    Exactly, sounds like a case of SBS! Spoiled Brat Syndrome at its finest ! What's sad about this is that Kerry has robbed Han of the joy of being announced with the rest of the team as well as some sense of relief for the time being. Kerry does this and then withdraws! Really?? At least Han went out and skated beautifully so I'm sure it wouldn't matter if Kerry had skated or not since she wouldn't have beaten Han..
     
  21. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    No one here forbade you to talk about anything earlier. This news and discussion thread was started because articles were published in the media and so this topic is no longer based merely on hearsay/rumor.

    I was very glad to see Brooklee Han skate so well in the SP and to hear all the cheers and support in her home rink. :) I hope she will be happy with how she performs her free skate tomorrow and can really enjoy winning her first Australian national title.
     
  22. PairSk8Fan

    PairSk8Fan Banned Member

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    No, I think you are showing your personal bias against my posts, which is ridiculous behavior for a Forum. It is like you have not read the other posts here, with others stating things like, "Spoiled Brat Syndrome," and the use of words like "not good enough,"angry," "bitter" as opposed to my bland description of her as an unappealing skater and competitor.

    I would NEVER go out of my way to watch CK skate live or on television. To me, she and her skating are unappealing.

    SorryBoutIT if YOU don't like it, and the delusion is YOURS.
     
  23. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    Last edited: Dec 5, 2013
  24. jiejie

    jiejie Active Member

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    After everything that's gone on with the complaint, CAS involvement, etc, I think it's understandable that a lot of skating fans and the general public aren't likely to cut Miss Kerry much slack and give her the benefit of a doubt on the illness. The withdrawal does look suspiciously tactical, bogus, and cowardly. I don't see how this really helps make any case for herself as Australia's best lady to send anywhere internationally. As for Brooklee, she laid down a good case in the SP that she's the Real Deal and a worthy Olympic and Worlds competitor for Australia. All she has to do is follow up with a FS as good as her Nebelhorn or Volvo Cup performances. Always best to let the skating do the talking rather than the lawyers.
     
  25. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    Yes, I understand that. Unlike some posters in this thread (not you), I've actually read all the posts and understood them. ;) My point, though, is that we don't know. We. Are. Speculating.

    This fact (that we don't know the contents of the complaint at this time but are speculating based on past events) seems to have escaped a few people who have leaped from this speculation to "well, if X and Y and Z are TRUE, then A, B and C". The problem is that X through Z aren't exactly The Truth but just probable/possible based on what we do know.

    As another example of speculation vs. facts, I speculate, based on her tweets, that Kerry is gung ho and supportive of this CAS complaint and not wriggling in embarrassment at what her parents are doing against her will. But I don't know this. Just as the people who are sure that she is a puppet being taken advantage of by strong-willed parents don't know that for sure either.

    I guess I'd rather wait to lambast someone for being "stupid" until I know exactly what their strategy is. :D
     
  26. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    Appeals to CAS are not heard unless an appeal has already been made to a lower federation first, so the CAS appeal is a continuation of the ISA Tribunal appeal, which was concerning Herseys. That is not speculation. The difference between the appeals is that because of the timing, and the rejected tribunal appeal, Brooklee has already skated at Nebelhorn and won a spot. Chantelle can't have the appeal be that Brooklee shouldn't be sent to Nebelhorn, because she already has been, so the complaint is now saying she shouldn't have been (and Chantelle should have been) because Brooklee skated at Herseys without permission from ISA.
     
  27. AusTechSpec

    AusTechSpec Member

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    Much of my "hearsay/rumor" seems very similar to a lot of the "speculations" going on here. Also turns out that my hearsay/rumor was dead on about the club comp. oh well.

    That she did, very clear that Brooklee didn't let any of the pressure get to her, despite that Nationals has no pull on who will be sent, there is bound to be alot of pressure, but she showed she was ready and capable of handling that like an olympic level skater.

    I watched her official practice this morning, she is looking very much on form. Should make for an excellent long this afternoon.
     
  28. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    Brooklee scored 102.81 in the FS for a total 161.42.
     
  29. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    Final scores for Nats:

    FPl. Name Nation Points SP FS
    1 Brooklee HAN VIC 161.42 1 1
    2 Taylor DEAN QLD 99.12 2 2
    3 Jaimee NOBBS WA 89.47 4 3
    4 Jessinta MARTIN SA 86.96 3 4
    5 Karuna HENDERSON ACT 79.57 5 5
    6 Sarah CULLEN NSW 76.73 7 6
    7 Harmonie WONG SA 72.35 6 7
    8 Lowanna GIBSON NSW 47.77 8 8

    Brooklee's ISU PB was 147.16. Looks like she had PBs in both long and short! :cheer2:
     
  30. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    1 Brooklee HAN VIC 102.81 49.81 54.00 6.67 6.58 7.00 6.75 6.75 1.00 #8

    Han landed 4 of her 6 planned triples -- 3Lo+2T, 3Lz, 3S, 3T+2T -- plus 2A; fell on 3T and doubled final Salchow in combo.

    Senior Ladies FS protocols: http://www.isa.org.au/Results/2013_AFSC/AFSC2013_SeniorLadies_FS_Scores.pdf

    Congratulations to Brooklee on winning her first Australian national title! :cool:
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013