Australian dispute over women's Olympic spot to have Court of Arbitration (CAS) hearing

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Dec 3, 2013.

  1. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    No one here forbade you to talk about anything earlier. This news and discussion thread was started because articles were published in the media and so this topic is no longer based merely on hearsay/rumor.

    I was very glad to see Brooklee Han skate so well in the SP and to hear all the cheers and support in her home rink. :) I hope she will be happy with how she performs her free skate tomorrow and can really enjoy winning her first Australian national title.
  2. PairSk8Fan

    PairSk8Fan Banned Member

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    No, I think you are showing your personal bias against my posts, which is ridiculous behavior for a Forum. It is like you have not read the other posts here, with others stating things like, "Spoiled Brat Syndrome," and the use of words like "not good enough,"angry," "bitter" as opposed to my bland description of her as an unappealing skater and competitor.

    I would NEVER go out of my way to watch CK skate live or on television. To me, she and her skating are unappealing.

    SorryBoutIT if YOU don't like it, and the delusion is YOURS.
  3. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Last edited: Dec 5, 2013
  4. jiejie

    jiejie Active Member

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    After everything that's gone on with the complaint, CAS involvement, etc, I think it's understandable that a lot of skating fans and the general public aren't likely to cut Miss Kerry much slack and give her the benefit of a doubt on the illness. The withdrawal does look suspiciously tactical, bogus, and cowardly. I don't see how this really helps make any case for herself as Australia's best lady to send anywhere internationally. As for Brooklee, she laid down a good case in the SP that she's the Real Deal and a worthy Olympic and Worlds competitor for Australia. All she has to do is follow up with a FS as good as her Nebelhorn or Volvo Cup performances. Always best to let the skating do the talking rather than the lawyers.
  5. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    Yes, I understand that. Unlike some posters in this thread (not you), I've actually read all the posts and understood them. ;) My point, though, is that we don't know. We. Are. Speculating.

    This fact (that we don't know the contents of the complaint at this time but are speculating based on past events) seems to have escaped a few people who have leaped from this speculation to "well, if X and Y and Z are TRUE, then A, B and C". The problem is that X through Z aren't exactly The Truth but just probable/possible based on what we do know.

    As another example of speculation vs. facts, I speculate, based on her tweets, that Kerry is gung ho and supportive of this CAS complaint and not wriggling in embarrassment at what her parents are doing against her will. But I don't know this. Just as the people who are sure that she is a puppet being taken advantage of by strong-willed parents don't know that for sure either.

    I guess I'd rather wait to lambast someone for being "stupid" until I know exactly what their strategy is. :D
  6. Angelskates

    Angelskates Active Member

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    Appeals to CAS are not heard unless an appeal has already been made to a lower federation first, so the CAS appeal is a continuation of the ISA Tribunal appeal, which was concerning Herseys. That is not speculation. The difference between the appeals is that because of the timing, and the rejected tribunal appeal, Brooklee has already skated at Nebelhorn and won a spot. Chantelle can't have the appeal be that Brooklee shouldn't be sent to Nebelhorn, because she already has been, so the complaint is now saying she shouldn't have been (and Chantelle should have been) because Brooklee skated at Herseys without permission from ISA.
  7. AusTechSpec

    AusTechSpec New Member

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    Much of my "hearsay/rumor" seems very similar to a lot of the "speculations" going on here. Also turns out that my hearsay/rumor was dead on about the club comp. oh well.

    That she did, very clear that Brooklee didn't let any of the pressure get to her, despite that Nationals has no pull on who will be sent, there is bound to be alot of pressure, but she showed she was ready and capable of handling that like an olympic level skater.

    I watched her official practice this morning, she is looking very much on form. Should make for an excellent long this afternoon.
  8. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    Brooklee scored 102.81 in the FS for a total 161.42.
  9. Angelskates

    Angelskates Active Member

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    Final scores for Nats:

    FPl. Name Nation Points SP FS
    1 Brooklee HAN VIC 161.42 1 1
    2 Taylor DEAN QLD 99.12 2 2
    3 Jaimee NOBBS WA 89.47 4 3
    4 Jessinta MARTIN SA 86.96 3 4
    5 Karuna HENDERSON ACT 79.57 5 5
    6 Sarah CULLEN NSW 76.73 7 6
    7 Harmonie WONG SA 72.35 6 7
    8 Lowanna GIBSON NSW 47.77 8 8

    Brooklee's ISU PB was 147.16. Looks like she had PBs in both long and short! :cheer2:
  10. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    1 Brooklee HAN VIC 102.81 49.81 54.00 6.67 6.58 7.00 6.75 6.75 1.00 #8

    Han landed 4 of her 6 planned triples -- 3Lo+2T, 3Lz, 3S, 3T+2T -- plus 2A; fell on 3T and doubled final Salchow in combo.

    Senior Ladies FS protocols: http://www.isa.org.au/Results/2013_AFSC/AFSC2013_SeniorLadies_FS_Scores.pdf

    Congratulations to Brooklee on winning her first Australian national title! :cool:
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013
  11. can'tsk8

    can'tsk8 New Member

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    Very well deserved! A genuine athlete that let the skating do all the talking! Let's hope the powers that be now make the right choices!!
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  12. ProgramerUSFS

    ProgramerUSFS New Member

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    Very nice, Brooklee let the skating do the talking. I find it very hard to believe that Kerry is sick, or if she is, it is due to what is going on. She darn well knows that this legal crap shouldn't have tainted the process and its about training and showing what you have on the ice. I can hardly wait to see Brooklee in Sochi, go get em!!!
  13. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    So will Dean now be filing a grievance that she should be the Australian champion, since Han should not have been allowed to skate in this event on account of being ineligible due to unauthorized participation in the earlier event?
  14. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Ashley Cain (@icegirlash) tweeted very excitedly about her part-time training partner in Texas:
  15. AusTechSpec

    AusTechSpec New Member

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    oh my god, could you imagine!!!
  16. Kelvster

    Kelvster Well-Known Member

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    Legal Battles give us fans a lot to debate about :grope:

    Even though this whole saga between Han and Kerry still hasn't been resolved and obviously is quite sad for the parties involved, I think there's something positive arising from it. In particular, it has made more people become aware of Han's skating, which is in fact very pleasant indeed. I also admire the way Han has proved again and again - firstly at Worlds last year (me reckons she should have beaten McCorkell to earn the spot in the first place), then at Nelbelhorn, Volvo Cup and now Nationals; that she is the one that deserves to go to Sochi.
  17. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    I am going to state an unpopular opinion here and I will probably get attacked for it, but I believe that if Chantelle said she was sick, she was sick.

    I've seen it before. People can go from fit as a fiddle to death warmed over in fifteen minutes, especially if food poisoning or any kind of gastro bug is involved. I can easily believe that Chantelle became ill in the hours between practice and the short program.
  18. Angelskates

    Angelskates Active Member

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    I don't believe she was sick. That's the problem with being a petty, bad sport, and making people have a sour taste in their mouths; people will begin to always think negatively about you. I don't believe her, because I think the timing is way too convenient, and because everything she does now puts a sour taste in my mouth. She's yet to actually SKATE to prove to people she's worthy of an Olympic placement. And I don't believe she can, which is why I think she withdrew "sick".
  19. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    But your logic is flawed. If she really was out to prove that she should have the spot, she would have skated rather than withdrawn sick. Sulking and withdrawing does nothing to help her case. It is simply not logical to fake illness. And in this case, too, if the illness was bad enough, it would have been detrimental to skate.

    To be frank, I don't condone Chantelle's actions. But I am more surprised that people are surprised. This is the Olympics, for crying out loud. You honestly can't tell me Chantelle is the only athlete in history to challenge a fair selection. She's not. Far from it. So many other athletes have done it, in so many other countries and other sports. I do not understand the huge blow-up. It's the Olympics. Everyone wants to go. Always. And for those who say Chantelle is young, she'll have another chance...she may not. Australia doesn't have guaranteed spots. We don't have that luxury and I would be very surprised if I ever saw the day when we had two for Worlds, let alone Olympics. There are plenty of nice young skaters coming through...Kailani is fabulous and has the jumps...our Novice ladies' champion is 12. She will be sixteen by the 2018 Olympics...Maybe this really is Chantelle's only chance. The Olympics would be the biggest thing in her career. I can't fault her for wanting to do everything possible to get there; I can fault her for how she's gone about it.

    Hey, at least none of OUR skaters have ever physically assaulted another to try and manipulate the Olympic selection...
  20. Angelskates

    Angelskates Active Member

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    We're not talking about other sports or athletes. If everyone does the wrong thing, it's still wrong. And my logic is not flawed. I think she knew she couldn't win, she didn't want to lose because she thinks it would look bad for her appeal, and so she withdrew. Her skate would have proved everyone's point: she's not worthy of the Olympic spot.

    I don't care that she wants to go. Fighting against someone else going when you can't give a reason why you should go except "I want to" is bad sportsmanship. She can't give a skate to prove she should go. She can't beat Brooklee. She/her team's being a petty spoilt brat, and a bad sport to boot. She's not fighting she should go; she's fighting that Brooklee is going. She's wants the spot without having done anything to earn it.

    I think people are surprised because they've yet to see a skate that Chantelle could use to prove she's Olympic material, proof she deserves the spot. Yet they've seen several from Brooklee (and Brooklee won the spot).
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013
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  21. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    The fact you lowered the bar to say her approach is at least better than Harding's in 1994 should tell you a few things.
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  22. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    No. What looks bad is withdrawing to avoid a skater. I doubt Chantelle would have done anything to jeapordise her appeal on purpose; therefore, I believe she is sick. Why should she have been afraid of losing to Brooklee? She beat Brooklee last year, and there have been enough dark mutterings that the Australian judges favour Chantelle. (Not to say that I believe them.) Chantelle stood absolutely nothing to gain by withdrawing. She also stood nothing to gain by skating while ill. She chose the lesser of two evils and is still getting lambasted for it.

    Should it? The bar is pretty bloody low in here. I may not agree with how Chantelle is going about things, but the amount of abuse and vitriol hurled at her in this thread is nothing short of disgusting. You would think she HAD actually taken a lead pipe to Brooklee the way people are talking about her in here.
  23. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Well, we don't know what happened. Chantelle Kerry might have suddenly fallen ill, you never know. I am not surprised to see most people questioning that, however, given her actions in bringing the legal case twice have made her lose the goodwill she might have once had.
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  24. Angelskates

    Angelskates Active Member

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    misskarne, you've seen Brooklee's scores - do you honestly think Chantelle could have beaten her?
  25. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    ^These things tend to work both ways. Saying there were a handful of incidents (if that) where skaters did worse-thought-out things isn't exactly compelling evidence. I can understand you'd be frustrated since the overall tone of the thread is way worse then when the appeal first started. But bringing up the worst skating assault from 20 years ago in a different country doesn't seem like the right way to try and create perspective. If the issue is that things are getting blown out of proportion, pretty sure a reference 94 and all the media frenzy that followed isn't exactly a safe bet to bring the discussion back to normal.

    Maybe you've seen Chantelle at local events and she does things for the local skating community that would explain why she could have more support locally? Would they both skate at 4CC or is Brooklee skipping that to focus on Sochi?
  26. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    It makes a better story if Kerry's withdrawal is all part of a nefarious scheme than if it's an unplanned anticlimax to what would have been an interesting showdown on the ice.

    But this is real life, so who knows?
  27. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    Skating fans go so far as to suggest :drama: and then :watch:? Nevah. Not once did I notice that, not in all my years of skating fandom.
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  28. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    I don't know. I don't know what kind of performance Chantelle would have put on the ice. Nor do I know what kind of performance Brooklee would have put in had Chantelle been there. Chantelle is capable of scoring reasonably big.

    I have only seen Chantelle live once, at Skate DownUnder. She was absolutely lovely, very elegant, extended, not too bad jumps. In the short program she was magic. Her long program, not so great. And therein perhaps lies the rub. But for four points more ISA would have had an even bigger headache on their hands, and Chantelle's appeal would be grounded in concrete criteria.

    I have never seen Brooklee live. But I would think that perhaps it is logical that a skater who is seen regularly by judges and officials would perhaps have better standing with them than a skater who spends 90% of the year away from Australia. Obviously, it is not Brooklee's fault that she was born, raised, and has always lived in America, and I can't fault her choice for staying there. But Chantelle's physical presence may give her an advantage - though I do not doubt that any such advantage would be subconscious, and not a deliberate action of any of the above.

    As an aside - I had the pleasure of meeting Brendan Kerry at SDU. He was very polite, well-spoken, and lovely. I have not met Chantelle.

    As for 4CCs, I don't know. It's close enough to Sochi that I think Brooklee would be reasonably allowed to skip it, but she may want to go for the competitive outing. Chantelle will almost certainly be there. I don't know who else will be, Taylor Dean maybe - Kailani is still a Junior. I was interested to see how tight it was between positions 3-5 after the short program. I do not think the order was correct after the SP, but I am not a judge.
  29. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I have come back to this thread after reading comments in the Aust Nationals thread about people claiming that Chantelle withdrawing was not genuine.

    As I said in the other thread, I actually spoke with her today. She has been sick for the last week and looked pretty much like death warmed up but she was feeling better today. Those who have said it wasn't genuine shouldn't be so quick to make assumptions, particularly when you are not there and actually don't know the full story. That is how bullsh*t rumours start.
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  30. AusTechSpec

    AusTechSpec New Member

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    Chantelle can't do flip or lutz, and has a history of scoring far less overseas than brooklee does.

    How could you think that with brooklees performances in practices and both events this week that Chantelle would have a chance against Brooklees technical abilities.

    That aside, i think all of this showed that Brooklee is clearly the skater who can handle the pressure and competition better, you don't think she had just as much pressure on her as Chantelle, yet she didn't let it show one bit, she came in and did her job then left. Showing the true qualities of an olympic skater.
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  31. AusTechSpec

    AusTechSpec New Member

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    I was there. I also spoke to her, her coach, the ASADA medical representative, and a handful of judges... and Brooklee...

    But i guess we can all take your "looked pretty much like death" as fact and proof, shame on us for thinking otherwise.
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  32. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, based on both of your posts alone, I'd be more willing to take Aussie Willy's word/view on something over yours so... :shuffle:
  33. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    I'm not surprised either. Because people suck.

    But really, most athletes don't like to skip competitions and they don't tweet about feeling sick leading up to them just to play mind games. They are more likely to pretend not to be sick or skate with an injury when they shouldn't than pretend to be sick.

    I'm frequently befuddled by the thought processes that fans attribute to athletes. They mostly want to put it out there on the playing field and do their best every time. They may substitute a jump for strategic purposes but all of the plotting and Machiavelli machinations that people attribute to them says more about the fans than the skaters.

    And you never know what will happen. She could have career-ending injury or her life could simply take a different path.

    That said, I think this attempt to get on the team is misguided and not the way to do it.

    No, it wouldn't. If Kerry had beaten her when it counted, she would have gone to Nebelhorn and there would have been no appeal. But after Han went to Nebelhorn and won the spot, the rules are clear. She gets to use it. The results of Australian Nationals are irrelevant.
  34. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    People were willing to say that Han withdrew from Skate Down Under to avoid competing in Australia against Kerry head-to-head over the chance to skate at Nebelhorn, and I don't see why it's surprising that people believe that Kerry withdrew from Nationals to avoid results that could impact her CAS case. Not that that would be correct, because the only thing the CAS can rule on is the basis for the case that was rejected by the ISA tribunal, which is whether Han is eligible to be chosen by ISA because she broke ISA rules to compete without ISA permission. Kerry isn't claiming that there's something wrong with the selection criteria, like Manzano did.

    Whether Kerry was actually ill is a separate issue. She *may* not have wanted to compete against Han, but that doesn't mean she would have faked illness to avoid it.

    As far as the idea that Kerry has four years, I agree that there's no guarantee whatsoever. Elene Gedevanishvili's coach wuzrobbing her like crazy after the Torino SP. She never fulfilled that potential, and she didn't have a skater in front of her as Georgia #1 who would get more recognition from the international judges. After Vancouver, it looked like the only team that could beat S/S was itself. Four years later and Volosozhar/Trankov are dominating.

    For that matter, this might be Han's last chance. She's deferred Wesleyan for a year, but once she's a full-time student, who knows whether she can keep up both school work and world-level skating, and the young ones coming up the pike in Australia will be her competition, too.
  35. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Australian Champions Crowned (recap article with quotes from O'Brien/Merriman, Brendan Kerry and Brooklee Han): http://sochi2014.olympics.com.au/news/australian-champions-crowned
    Last sentence bolded by me below:
    Connecticut article on Han winning the national title: http://danbury.dailyvoice.com/sports/redding-teen-wins-australian-figure-skating-championship
    Excerpt:
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013
  36. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    Thankyou.



    And I agree. But I still understand that she is desperate to go which is why she is doing it, and again, she is hardly the first athlete in any sport to act this way. Somehow it's becoming a big drama blow-up just because it happens to be figure skating.

    Sorry, that's my after-midnight typing for you - I meant had she got the score the ISA still sent Han.
  37. Angelskates

    Angelskates Active Member

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    :rofl: This is not "becoming a big drama blow-up just because it happens to be figure skating" - these "big drama blow-ups" happen in every sport. This happens to be a figure skating board, so it's more likely that the drama posted here is related to figure skating.
  38. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    Maybe so. But the level of vitriol in this thread is unsettling. One would think Chantelle HAD whacked Brooklee; or that she was some vile coach who forced her students to skate injured, with the abuse and language being used about her in this thread.
  39. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    As for Brooklee's withdrawal from Skate Down Under, I was involved in that as well and that was genuine too. So I would again suggest people stop making bullsh*t rumours.
  40. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Who said anything about mind games?

    There is nothing machiavellan about withdrawing from a competition because you have crumbled under stress and pressure.