Australian dispute over women's Olympic spot to have Court of Arbitration (CAS) hearing

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Dec 3, 2013.

  1. eurodance2001

    eurodance2001 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2007
    Messages:
    736
    Link to all results: http://www.isa.org.au/Results/2013_AFSC/result.htm (I think Sylvia might have provided this already, but here it is again)

    Interesting to see the composition of the Tech team for the ladies. All except one are from NSW; isn't that where Kerry is from? I wonder if any of them are from her own rink.. I mention this only because someone a bit ago mentioned that NATIONALLY Kerry was favored over Han and that person was quickly dismissed. I'm wondering now if there is/was any truth to their assertions.. Hmm.. We will know very soon how this plays out and hopefully in the next few weeks the CAS decision. ISA has already affirmed their support of Han so who knows...
  2. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2004
    Messages:
    12,791
    Nationals has no bearing at all on the Olympic placement.
  3. alilou

    alilou Crazy Stalker Lady

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2005
    Messages:
    3,981
    I agree you can't have it both ways, and I agree that if you can't stand up to parents/authority figures by the time you're 17 it won't miraculously happen at 18 - speaking from personal experience here lol. I think my point is I was so very much under the will of my mother that I had no will, no voice of my own, not even internally. There is no personal will, there's only trying to please. Whether this applies to Chantelle of not I have no idea. I do know that people grow up (or not) differently and in an deal world it might be nice if all 17.5 year olds were able to take responsibility for their world, and to say a very clear 'no' when appropriate, but that's not how the world is. I don't know Chantelle or her parents or her team, I just can understand how a 17 yr old would be still under the thrall of all the adults around her running her life. I doubt she hatched this plan.
  4. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2004
    Messages:
    12,791
    She did decide what she had on her twitter bio, though. And yes I believe it's a dig at Brooklee.
  5. alilou

    alilou Crazy Stalker Lady

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2005
    Messages:
    3,981
    This. I will never stop being an Aussie, even though I too don't vote or pay taxes in Oz, have 2 passports, and have lived in Canada for 30 years. I'm Canadian too :cheer2: it doesn't make less Australian.
  6. alilou

    alilou Crazy Stalker Lady

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2005
    Messages:
    3,981
    Oh yes, I agree. From what I'm reading I not saying Chantelle's an angel. Sounds like a 17 yr old to me. And I don't give her a free pass. It does look to me as if she's behaving badly, but who are her role models?
    PeterG and (deleted member) like this.
  7. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2004
    Messages:
    12,791
    There are plenty of positive role models around. We choose who to model, IMO, especially at her age, based on what we want and who we are, and what we want to be, what we seek. It's not as if her mother (and let's face it, we're talking her, since she's the coach, the former skater) is her only option. She's old enough, and able enough, to find a role model that supports her views. We're talking a girl who has been in the media, she done spots on TV (network 10), she's got options and is not choosing wisely. She's as desperate as her team, IMO.
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2013
  8. alilou

    alilou Crazy Stalker Lady

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2005
    Messages:
    3,981
    Some 17 yr olds are clear and strong and able to make choices for themselves from a place of inner strength and integrity, some are not. I agree she's as desperate as her team - at least it appears that way - and I agree she appears to be making bad choices. I also think that if she actually really were able to find and follow a better role model she probably would, but then I believe that everyone who makes bad choices, whatever their age, would do better if they could. I also know that at 17 it wouldn't have occurred to me to be seeking out better role models. I was still a child.
  9. eurodance2001

    eurodance2001 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2007
    Messages:
    736
    I know that; did I say it did? Anyway.. Let's see what happens at Nationals and then in two weeks CAS. Who was that poster that stated that Kerry is favored NATIONALLY over Han? I would like to PM them.
  10. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2004
    Messages:
    12,791
    Why would she seek better role models? Her current ones are what she wants. She obviously thinks they can help her get what she wants (an Olympic spot). ISA provides (compulsory IIRC) counselling to all high level skaters who are/were team hopefuls, and monitoring and meetings are done to inform of the processes and discuss issues etc. OWI also provides counselling and psychology services IIRC. She's had options to deal with her disappointment; instead she behaving like an entitled, spoilt brat, not an elite athlete.
  11. eurodance2001

    eurodance2001 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2007
    Messages:
    736
    ITA.. And shame on her parents for obviously being enablers..
  12. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

    Joined:
    May 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,166
    Brendan Kerry article (it doesn't mention he is currently coached by Tammy Gambill in Riverside, California) - excerpt from the end: http://wwos.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8766238
  13. Robeye

    Robeye Curiously curious

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    411
    I have only a very casual knowledge of Australian skating, or of this particular situation, and so am more comfortable not offering an opinion.

    However, I do agree with you on your general point. That is to say, if it is not reasonable to treat seventeen (and a half) year olds on the basis of an expectation that they have already developed a capacity for independent thought and action, and have grown at least a minimally serviceable conscience and moral sense, then on what basis do we allow them, only a few months later, to do such adult things as to vote, and to serve in the armed forces?

    I'm all for viewing the actions of those who are essentially young adults through the mitigating lens of inexperience, but to completely insulate them from moral responsibility is to patronize and infantilize them, something that most seventeen (and a half) year olds will be the first to protest.
  14. Really

    Really No longer just a "well-known member" Yay!

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2001
    Messages:
    29,434
    I don't know either girl or their parents. My comment about being a minor was put in the same light as many other discussions we've had on this board regarding those under 18. We've also had many discussions about how the magical number of 18 doesn't automatically make one wise and all-knowing. My point is that the girl is young and may very well be strongly influenced by some people around her. Many very young people are easily influenced and it may not have taken much being said for Ms. Kerry to start believing she had been truly wronged, especially if it were parents or other adults she trusts/respects telling her this. I imagine the truth is somewhere in the middle...
  15. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2003
    Messages:
    2,511
    Speculating here.

    After this event, Han and her team would normally have returned home to train in preparation for Four Continents, and any competitions (potentially including the Olympics, Junior Worlds and Worlds) after that. With the CAS hearing scheduled for next week, she and her team are not only losing precious training time, for anyone that has had to amend long distance travel plans at short notice, it is probably costing Han and her team thousands of dollars more to change air fares and accommodation.
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2013
  16. eurodance2001

    eurodance2001 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2007
    Messages:
    736
    If I were the Han's, if they win this case, I would sue the Kerry's for all the change fees they may have incurred because of this just to spite them..
  17. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2004
    Messages:
    12,791
    I highly doubt any of Chantelle's young fans have any idea what is going on.

    I wonder if they thought through the possibility of Australia not having a spot, though. If Brooklee is found to have been not eligible to skate, Australia's spot should be forfeited, not given to Chantelle. It would not be fair to the other countries to just give the spot to someone else from Australia if Australia's skater didn't earn the spot fairly (by being eligible to skate for it).
  18. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    15,951
    Based on what evidence? I don't think we have any idea whose plan this was, who is pushing whom, etc. None of us are insiders into Team C. Kerry (to distinguish from Team B. Kerry) or ISA skating. All we know is there is a complaint. We don't know how it got to this point though or even what the evidence is. Heck, we don't even know what competition it was that Han skated at supposedly without permission.
  19. Kelvster

    Kelvster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2002
    Messages:
    1,623
    Yeah, counter-claims! :lynch:

    But seriously, I hope Brooklee has a good support system around her. It mustn't be easy to deal with litigation like this at a young age, when so much is at stake (i.e. you have been working your whole life up to this point, to fulfill the dream. the dream is almost a reality and you can almost touch it, but others are trying to take it away).
  20. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2003
    Messages:
    2,511
    It is believed to be the 2013 Hershey Open.
  21. ProgramerUSFS

    ProgramerUSFS New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2010
    Messages:
    154
    Yes I totally agree with you. The spot should be taken away then. As I read more into this thread, the fact that Kerry might think of herself somehow a better Australian because she is born and raised in that country is absurd. If you are Australian then it shouldn't matter, and in fact anything outside of this type of thinking is just providing all sorts of criteria. I mean next these small country skaters are going to say that you aren't as good because you train out side of the country part time, etc. If you qualify for the passport then you are a citizen period. And I can tell you that a 17 year old isn't saying, hey dad and mom, lets sue our skating union and bring all sorts of bad press to our sport. Kerry most likely is very disappointed and mommy and daddy are going to help their little angel any way they can. That is what I think is going on and Kerry will skate if she has the chance.
    alilou and (deleted member) like this.
  22. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,457
    I don't know that it is necessary for the athlete or her coaches to actually be present at a CAS hearing, just her legal team. The part about costing thousands of dollars is right, though, and I agree that if the complaint is dismissed, the complainant should have to pay the costs for both sides.

    Assuming, for the sake of argument, that Han violated an ISA rule by participating at Hershey, then it seems to me to be within the ISA's purview to decide the appropriate punishment, including deciding that skating in a club event did not really violate the spirit of the rule. This leads me to a couple questions I haven't seen answered:

    1) This suit seems to assume the ISA cannot exercise any discretion here and that loss of eligibility is the only allowable response. I don't know the ISA membership rules, but it seems likely to me that their disciplinary procedures would allow them some degree of leeway to consider the severity of the offense and to decide what action to take. If so, then another skater would, legally speaking, not be an "interested party" in these proceedings.

    2) When the ISA sent Han to Nebelhorn, were they already aware of her participation at Hershey? If yes, then IMO they effectively approved after-the fact, and arguably would be estopped from reversing themselves later. In other words, if the ISA was going to regard this as an infraction worthy of loss of eligibility, they needed to do it reasonably soon after learning of the violation, not look the other way until Han had secured them the Olympic spot then pull her eligibility.

    I suspect the answers to these questions may contribute to the ISA's decision to support Han's selection and oppose Kerry's challenge.
  23. ProgramerUSFS

    ProgramerUSFS New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2010
    Messages:
    154

    You touch on items I am not sure have really been answered. First, lets say that Han skated without an authorization letter at Hersey. Is that a ISU violation or a ISA violation? Maybe Syliva can answer this? I really think that if she violated ISU rules then the spot is gone, but if she violated ISA rules then all is up in the air.
  24. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,163
    I wonder if she has southern cross tattoo also :lol:
  25. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    15,951
    Yes, the key phrase begin "believed". As in "we don't know, but we guess" Therefore, my comment stands... We don't know what competition it is that Kerry's team is complaining about it. It could be that one or it could be another one that happened after Nebelhorn.
  26. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2004
    Messages:
    12,791
    I don't see how this can turn out favourably for Chantelle at all; as in, I don't see how she can be sent, even if she "wins". It does seem like she arguing against Brooklee's selection, but not for hers...
  27. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

    Joined:
    May 24, 2003
    Messages:
    19,411
    According to the ISA rules that Sylvia quoted up thread, the appeals process within ISA is first to appeal to a tribunal, which rejected Kerry's complaint, and then to take it to CAS. According to the provisions of CAS (Code 2013 ed),

    This suggests that since the ISA Rules allow for CAS arbitration after the tribunal has announced a decision, Kerry's appeal to CAS is step two of the same complaint, which would have been before Nebelhorn, since she tried to block Han from competing at Nebelhorn through the tribunal process.

    Hershey's has been suggested, because it's the only know competition in which Han competed in which she wouldn't have needed her Federation's signature on the application form, the requirement for Senior B's. The only known exception to this has been Ando, who received direct invitations from Senior B organizers.
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2013
  28. Oz_sk8ting_mum

    Oz_sk8ting_mum New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2005
    Messages:
    219
    Seems Chantelle has withdrawn from Senior ladies!
  29. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,163
    That's she has. How odd!
  30. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2004
    Messages:
    12,791
    She probably didn't want to lose because she thinks it would look bad for her case.

    Is the Worlds spot based on Nationals? I can't remember...
  31. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

    Joined:
    May 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,166
    Re-posting from the Aussie Skating thread:
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2013
  32. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2004
    Messages:
    12,791
    Thanks Silvia!

    Chantelle was at practice this morning...
  33. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2004
    Messages:
    12,791
    Brooklee's SP scores: 1 Brooklee HAN VIC 58.61 33.53 25.08 6.42 6.00 6.50 6.00 6.42 0.00 #7
  34. Kelvster

    Kelvster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2002
    Messages:
    1,623
    I would imagine so!!!!!!!!

    Brooklee Han landed 3-lutz-2toe, 3-loop (turn out), and 2A. World (and Olympic) Class stuff! :kickass:
  35. can'tsk8

    can'tsk8 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Messages:
    82
    More poor decisions by Team C Kerry! I am sure she will have all the appropriate paperwork to withdraw! What a shame they don't have the appropriate attitude towards good sportsmanship! Monica MacDonald sure knows how to play politics, Chantelle is a lovely and talented skater, instead of wasting so much time, energy and money on trying to get a spot to the Olympics by playing games and taking someone else's successes from them based on political technicalities, why not invest that same time, money and energy into sending Chantelle to train in the USA with her brother Brendan and his coach Tammy Gambill, maybe then she can try and WIN a spot for herself for 2018 and also feel great about her own personal achievements and success. Just a thought!!!
  36. AusTechSpec

    AusTechSpec New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2012
    Messages:
    189
    I see we are allowed to talk about this now :rolleyes:

    Chantelle has been complaining about being sick today and yesterday. There was a picture she sent out to a bunch of skaters stating that she "hated being sick at a time like this", through a iphone app.
    As far as how being sick affected her performance leading up to the event, I was at the senior unofficial and she was having no problems at all. Skating very good, wasn't quite about to nail that triple triple we all saw in the video she posted about a month ago, but all the same she looked very fit and ready to go.
    I would assume this withdraw is a strategic move here, not wanting to look bad if she was beat by Brooklee.
  37. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2004
    Messages:
    12,791
    She was well enough to be at practice this morning.

    And Brooklee got a fab score in the SP.
  38. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,163
    I thought Brooklee was great tonight.
  39. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2002
    Messages:
    20,569
    Yes. Whilst what has happened has made me angry and disappointed, the only thing I have an issue with is Chantelle Kerry's team action, taken in this case. I have always admired her skating. Her jump technique isn't great and she doesn't have consistent triples. She usually shows well choreographed, interesting and original programs, however, and she presents them very well. She also has been slowly improving from season to season and the triples are getting there (furthermore, she's never played safe and is always attempting them). If that continues, I have no doubt that she would be at Olympic level in four years.

    And she thinks that she deserves to go to Olympics just because of that? Her brother is training in the US now because the conditions there are superior to those available back home. Does this mean that another skater who is still Australia-based is now more deserving of the Olympic spot than him?

    I was extremely happy to see how well Brooklee Han has managed to skate her short program. This situation must have resulted in a lot of stress for her. But she has managed to prove that she's an Olympic level skater. On the ice.

    Furthermore, Han didn't just skate near clean. She has also upper the technical difficulty of her short program. In the past her SP jumps were 3toe/2toe, 3loop and 2axel. She has now replaced the 3toe with a 3lutz.

    In the end, it's the skating that is doing the talking. :)
  40. eurodance2001

    eurodance2001 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2007
    Messages:
    736
    Exactly, sounds like a case of SBS! Spoiled Brat Syndrome at its finest ! What's sad about this is that Kerry has robbed Han of the joy of being announced with the rest of the team as well as some sense of relief for the time being. Kerry does this and then withdraws! Really?? At least Han went out and skated beautifully so I'm sure it wouldn't matter if Kerry had skated or not since she wouldn't have beaten Han..