Australian dispute over women's Olympic spot to have Court of Arbitration (CAS) hearing

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Dec 3, 2013.

  1. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    http://au.sports.yahoo.com/news/article/-/20127098/aust-figure-skating-olympic-berth-appeal/
    Excerpt:
    Was the Hershey Open, a club competition in Pennsylvania, the event Han entered without the approval of the national federation? I mentioned Han's participation in the Hershey Open earlier in the Aussie Skating thread where this topic first surfaced as hearsay: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?84567-Aussie-Skating&p=4038500&viewfull=1#post4038500

    ETA revised wording (bolded by me below) in an updated version of the the article:
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2013
  2. Cheylana

    Cheylana Well-Known Member

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    Oh no, deja vu for Oz....
  3. Kelvster

    Kelvster Well-Known Member

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    I have not seen chantelle skate ... but I just wanna say that Brooklee Han really skated brilliantly at Nelbelhorn trophy. One can even argue that she should have earned the spot in Vancouver last year, without going to Nelbelhorn.

    This reminds me a little bit of the saga between Miriam Manzano and Joanne Carter in 2006 ...
  4. kylet3

    kylet3 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry to me, but this wreaks of desperation and trying to take the spot away from someone who has rightfully earned it. Brooklee has skated brilliantly for herself this season to qualify the spot for Australia and in winning in Riga. Sorry Chantelle, but you haven't earned it and trying to play politics and take a spot away from a skater who has rightfully earned it.
  5. Dr.Siouxs

    Dr.Siouxs Well-Known Member

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    Chantelle :blah:
  6. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    I think fighting against someone else going is really sour grapes, rather than fighting that you should go. Chantelle hasn't earn it. She lost the CAS Appeal, and Brooklee was allowed to skate for a spot, which she ultimately won. It would be dreadful if CAS rejected that appeal, but not this one; to let Brooklee skate for a spot, but then not let her keep that spot, would be terrible. They let her qualify.

    I hope Brooklee gets the spot, after kicking Chantelle's arse at Nationals. I will never watch Chantelle's skating the same way again; she's not fighting to go, she's fighting for someone else not to go so she can go. She's not arguing that she's done anything to earn the spot because she hasn't.
  7. eurodance2001

    eurodance2001 Active Member

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    Totally does.. When is a decision expected in this? Such an unnecessary distraction for Brooklee.
  8. kylet3

    kylet3 Well-Known Member

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    I'm really hoping this is ended with a decisive victory by Brooklee over Chantelle, but as some have posted, due to politics, that might not be a sure thing which to me is disappointing. The results should be determined by what happens on the ice, not by internal politics. That being said, I'd hopefully expect a decision on this in the next week or so.
  9. eurodance2001

    eurodance2001 Active Member

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    You would think Skate Australia would've learned from the Manzano/Carter drama.. How is this supposed to positively promote the sport? Also, if Brooklee is confirmed, what typee of team camaraderie can be expected between Brooklee and Brendan?? SMDH..
  10. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    Ice Skating Australia can't do anything about appeals to CAS though, I don't think. And Brooklee and Chantelle have never got along from the sounds of it; this is Chantelle's second appeal now; it sounds like there's no love lost between them. Chantelle doesn't care about positively promoting the sport; she wants to go to the Olympics far more than she cares about what this is doing for the sport in Australia. And ultimately it's not going to change participation or anything for figure skating, it'll more make Chantelle look bad (and maybe also ISA) than anything else.
  11. sammyf

    sammyf Well-Known Member

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    Brooklee earned a spot for the youth Olympic games by placing really well on the JGP and Chantelle got the spot since Brooklee was a year to old. Brooklee already earned Chantelle a spot to one games, I'm hoping she gets to keep the other.
    Lanna and (deleted member) like this.
  12. ProgramerUSFS

    ProgramerUSFS New Member

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    This is not good for the sport at all. We talked about this somewhat in the Philippine thread where issues arose and were handled differently. I am curious, not knowing as much about these disputes in the land down under. Could it have been handled differently if the Aust skating union would have been more transparent and laid out the choice criteria in a well written from? The issue with some of the skating members is that things are kept somewhat selective. I know in the US, it is not a measurement that is out in the open for everyone to see, and can be manipulated at Nationals which everyone this year thinks will happen. Do you all think the ISU should lay out the selection process for the olympics therefore taking the control away from the countries?

    They most recently changed the TES scores to perfect who goes. What would happen if the ISU set the rules say based on world standing or total points earned in a season etc.
  13. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Has this ever worked out long-term for any skater or team anywhere when one attempts to use the courts to get a spot and/or tries to block a competitor from getting one?
  14. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Unlike the Philippines, Australia has published detailed criteria for selection to both the Olympic qualifying competition (2013 Nebelhorn Trophy) and the Olympics - refer to the links posted here: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?84567-Aussie-Skating&p=4038500&viewfull=1#post4038500

    The ISU?! No way!
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2013
  15. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    The ISU could insist on a published, transparent process by a deadline for selecting the participants in the Olympic qualifier, if the country needs to qualify, and the Olympic and championship teams for the upcoming season. A published, transparent process doesn't stop a federation from saying, for example, that the selections will be made by the Coaches' Committee after European Championships and doing what it wants anyway, but at least the skaters would know ahead of time.
  16. Kelvster

    Kelvster Well-Known Member

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    Not skaters .... but I recall the British rhythmic gymnasts took the Swiss rhythmic gymnasts to Court prior to the London Olympics, and won a spot at the team event.
  17. Cheylana

    Cheylana Well-Known Member

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    Didn't Harding threaten a lawsuit to keep her spot?
  18. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Sounds good in theory, but having a published, detailed selection process hasn't prevented Australia's current ladies' situation...
  19. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    I'm curious as to why she'd need permission to skate in this competition. Doesn't USFS have reciprocity agreements with ISA that make permission automatic? They have those kinds of agreements with quite a few ISU NGBs and we see skaters from other countries at local club comps all the time. I didn't realize it could be a problem.

    The selection criteria is not in dispute as far as I can tell. Kerry's argument seems to be that Han isn't an ISA-eligible skater any more.
  20. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I don't doubt that people have received spots by going to court, but in the long run, do people really forget Mrs. Mitchell's involvement in trying to convince her US Representative to block Congress from granting citizenship to Tanith Belbin or Punsalan/Swallow's attempt to block Gorsha Sur's? How many people would even thing about David Mitchell if it weren't for the :mitchell:?

    I believe so, since there were no established grounds for taking her spot at the time.

    Absolutely true: that's not applicable here, nor to the Dambier vs. Contesti issue, which was, IIRC, an attempt to override/change the criteria, which Dambier met and Contesti didn't. The original comment, which I realize now is in the Philippines skating thread, was in praise of the transparency of the Australian process, with the thought that if the Philippines had similar criteria, there wouldn't be the same kind of :drama: there.

    The article doesn't say whether Kerry went to CAS to block Han from competing at Nebelhorn for the same reason, or if this is a new tactic by Kerry.
  21. jiejie

    jiejie Active Member

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    I'm confused. If the crux of the Kerry argument is that Han isn't ISA-eligible any more--and it does sound like that's the legal argument her camp is trying to make--then why is the focus only on Han's alleged ineligibility for the Olympic spot? Wouldn't it be more legally consistent to proffer that Han is no longer eligible to compete at Australian nationals?

    The entire situation stinks and does seem like a desperation move--Chantelle on paper and when you watch videos of her skating, is so far not up to Han's standard. Since she's not yet an adult, I'm assuming this is the handiwork of Mama and other members of Team Kerry. Mrs. MacDonald, meet Mrs. Mitchell....
  22. Nomad

    Nomad Well-Known Member

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  23. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Since by the criteria Australian Nationals won't be taken into consideration for determining the Olympic spot, and that's what Kerry wants, it won't help her to block Han from Australian Nationals. Unless there was another basis for trying to block Han from Nebelhorn, there's some reason she is pursuing this one competition at a time.

    Is this the international CAS? I don't see anything published under "Recent Decisions" involving ISA or Kerry on the CAS site, but there's a distinction between confidential and non-confidential cases. I'm not sure where they make the distinction: perhaps because Kerry is a minor?
  24. ProgramerUSFS

    ProgramerUSFS New Member

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    This is true, and thank you for making us aware of their process and transparency. But lets dream here a bit. We all know that skating and its following want rules and things they understand. Why wouldn't it be in the best interest of skating to level the rules across all countries and lay down the published selection for all counties to follow. Wouldn't this make it fair for every members skaters? Wouldn't this be in the same area of setting policy for who can skate, how old, etc... Why leave this sort of thing, open to the management skills of each country. I think this is the ISU's chance to make it fair for all countries and the rules. Thoughts?
  25. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Active Member

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    Brooklee Han was actually one of my favourite ladies skaters from this past years World Championships. She got a great response from the crowd for her short program and everyone around me thought she deserved to score higher. She really lit the ice up, and in doing so won me over as a fan :)

    Now this....this is desperation at its worst and I have a few very choice words which I would love to say to Kerry after hearing this awful scummy news. As others have said, she's trying to take the spot from Han, as opposed for actually qualifying herself. Not to mention, it was Han who won the Olympic spot by competing well at Nebelhorn. If Han loses the spot she earned and it goes to Kerry instead, it will be a low point for me as a skating enthusiast this season.

    Shame on you Chantelle Kerry, shame on you. You are now the worst character in the whole of figure skating in my eyes (well almost as bad as Nikolai at least).
  26. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    Would Chantelle even have a chance to compete in Sochi if Han had not earned a spot? Has Chantelle been to any competitions (Worlds, Nebelhorn or whichever was the qualifying competition) and placed well enough to earn her own spot? If not, and if I was in control of the Australian federation, I would tell Chantelle that we wouldn't send her to Sochi regardless of whether or not Han is allowed to compete. Han is the only one who has earned a spot and we aren't sending someone else in her place. They are surely within their rights to do that, the Australian gymnastics federation didn't send a women's gymnastics team this year because they didn't feel any of them were competitive enough.
  27. ProgramerUSFS

    ProgramerUSFS New Member

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  28. jiejie

    jiejie Active Member

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    Now that is a very interesting thought. But previous comments on the forum seem to indicate the federation is pro-Kerry. Which leads me to another point of my confusion....As to the CAS, I'm unclear on the mechanisms and processes by which it works and who the parties might be--in this case I presume Party A is Chantelle Kerry but who is Party B? Brooklee Han? The Australian skating federation?
  29. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    I hope one would careful with harsh words on Chantelle Kerry. :rolleyes: We Aussies will decide what is good and right for ourselves.
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2013
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  30. stjeaskategym

    stjeaskategym Well-Known Member

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    How would Chantelle even know that Brooklee entered an event without the Federation's permission? Where is that accusation coming from? Is there some sort of rule in Australia that you can't enter US club competitions? And if that were the case, I'm sure Brooklee would have obeyed the rule.

    Brooklee's skating is really wonderful. I hope everything works out the way it should.
  31. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    In the cases listed on the CAS website, it's usually an athlete or and athlete teaming with an organizations vs. a federation, agency, and organization on the other. Kerry wouldn't have a direct beef with Han in court, but she does with the Australian skating federation, if the Federation is breaking its own rules in treating Han as eligible.

    Results by Chantelle Kerry in the last two seasons to date:

    2012-13 Four Continents x Senior Ladies SP 13 Chantelle KERRY AUS 43.93 25.31
    2012-13 Four Continents x Senior Ladies FS 14 Chantelle KERRY AUS 74.18 37.57
    2012-13 JGP Bled Junior Ladies SP 23 Chantelle KERRY AUS 31.57 16.21
    2012-13 JGP Bled Junior Ladies FS 19 Chantelle KERRY AUS 65.19 32.64
    2013-14 JGP Gdansk Junior Ladies SP 10 Chantelle KERRY AUS 42.92 24.56
    2013-14 JGP Gdansk Junior Ladies FS 8 Chantelle KERRY AUS 81.02 41.89
    2013-14 JGP Tallinn Junior Ladies SP 12 Chantelle KERRY AUS 43.87 24.92
    2013-14 JGP Tallinn Junior Ladies FS 18 Chantelle KERRY AUS 67.31 32.07
    2012-13 JGP Zagreb Junior Ladies SP 10 Chantelle KERRY AUS 40.96 23.58
    2012-13 JGP Zagreb Junior Ladies FS 10 Chantelle KERRY AUS 73.6 38.78
    2013-14 Ondrej Nepala Senior Ladies SP 9 Chantelle KERRY AUS 45.81 24.33
    2013-14 Ondrej Nepala Senior Ladies FS 9 Chantelle KERRY AUS 81.71 42.43
    2013-14 Skate Down Under Senior Ladies SP 1 Chantelle KERRY AUS 53.82 28.94
    2013-14 Skate Down Under Senior Ladies FS 1 Chantelle KERRY AUS 83.74 39.74

    She's made the Olympics/4C's TES minimums at all events except JGP Tallinn. She made the Worlds SP TES minimum at Skate Down Under, for once in 14 attempts.

    So far this season, her totals are:
    Han's totals have been:
    Han has made the Olympics/4C's minimums in all but the JGP Mexico City, and the Worlds TES minimums 11 times in 20 attempts.

    In head-to-head competition,
    Han withdrew from Skate Down Under.
  32. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    Everyone is allowed to have any option of what is good and right, Australian or not. But many of the people in this thread, including those with harsh worse towards Chantelle, are Australian. I think Chantelle is a bad sport, I think she's got sour grapes, I think she has done nothing to earn a spot to the Olympics, and I don't have any respect for her as a person anymore. I will no longer watch her skating the same way, even though this is not about the skating, and that's what an Olympic spot should be about. I think it's terrible that her parents would let this get to this point, and like I said, I hope she looses dismally to Brooklee at Nationals and then is denied her appeal. She is not arguing she has earnt a spot at the Olympics, she's done nothing to earn it, she's arguing against someone else, who has earnt it, going, just because she wants to be handed the spot, "free" if you will.

    "We Aussies" don't get to decided, it's in the hands of CAS now. I hope they do the right thing, like they did with the previous appeal. They decided Brooklee could skate for the spot, now they should let her kept the spot she earnt.

    kwanfan, CAS already agreed that Brooklee IS eligible, because it denied Chantelle's previous appeal against Brooklee skating for an Olympic spot. They decided Brooklee could skate for a spot, which was saying she is eligible.
  33. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    It would be impossible to enforce consistent rules across countries, because different countries have different levels of development in their skating systems, different numbers of skaters at different competitive levels, and so on.

    Besides, the ISU does a bad enough job of screwing things up at the international level. It would be :scream: if it also had the power to interfere with individual federations' choices for who to send to competitions.
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  34. can'tsk8

    can'tsk8 New Member

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    I think Brendan Kerry has competed in US competitions as he is based permanently in USA, I just wonder what makes Chantelle think Brooklee does not have permission from ISA, let's hope Brendan has had permission or this case could bite the family on the butt!!! This really is making Monica McDonald and Chantelle look like very very bad sports! Let's hope David Kranjec doesn't try this on Brendan!!
  35. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    Using harsh words on Chantelle is not going to right the wrong. 'We Aussies' is meant to be the Australian authorities who will make the decision. I think words like 'you are the worst character' is too judgemental on a young lady, and the people who are using those harsh words on behalf of Brooklee are not doing Broooklee any favours. It just gets uglier and uglier. I hope the Australian Skating Authorities will now come up with a clear cut guideline in future about eligibility so that there should be no future challenges.
  36. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    CAS is not the "Australian authorities". ISA already have clear, published guidelines, which Brooklee met. Chantelle is arguing that she met them while not being eligible to meet them. CAS already decided she WAS eligible to skate for a spot on the Olympic team, and actually it was already reported that Brooklee was going to the Olympics. Chantelle is now trying again, because she's a bad sport, not because ISA's guidelines aren't clear and Chantelle thinks she earnt the spot.
  37. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    I agree it does seem like bad sportsman on Chantelles side.

    I also think it is kinda mad to skate for a country in which you neither live nor were born, but whatevs.
    I have actually seen Brooklee at the Ice House a few times.

    What happened with Jo Carter in 2006? Would have Miriam done any better?
  38. Kelvster

    Kelvster Well-Known Member

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    Going back to Miriam Manzano ... I recall somehow that at least, in Manzano's case, she missed the opportunity to compete in 2002 (can't remember the exact reason why, but Stephanie Zhang was picked) and she also beat Joanne Carter at Nationals in 2006. . So I had a tiny little bit of sympathy for Manzano, especially considering that she made it to the free programme at Worlds a couple of times (in 2002, and 2004 I think) (Though I still thought Joanne deserved to go, having won the spot at Worlds in 2005 and beaten Manzano at the 4CCs, which the committee had set as the deciding competition. Joanne was always just full of fire and attack on the ice, and her free programme at Worlds in 2005 was just brilliant. The best skater that Australia has produced in recent decades IMO)

    In Kerry's case, I just don't see any strong justifications. She doesn't even have the World TES minimum for the free programme, by the sounds of it .........
  39. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    Ahh k, I always wondered what happened. Thanks :)
  40. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    Why is it mad? She's Australian, and she knows she has a better chance skating for Australia than the US. Sounds sensible, rather than mad, to me. She didn't need to change citizenship, it was no hassle or expensive saga. She was born as much Australian as any other Australian, and as much Australian as American, according to Australian citizen requirements (she'd qualify for Australian citizenship by descent, even if she never lived in Australia and was born elsewhere as well).