Article : Skater Caroline Zhang takes positive approach

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Polymer Bob, Jan 26, 2013.

  1. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Messages:
    3,539
    Two, possibly three, depending on what her GOE would have been.

    http://www.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2013/68390/results.html

    Because you are a uber and refuse to accept her limitations. :p

    Actually, it has been pointed out from time to time here on FSU that Zhang has been gifted with (1) positive, neutral, or insufficiently negative GOE on her mule-kick flutz, (formerly) mule-kick wonky flip, double axel, and traveled spins and (2) PCS out of proportion to her actual level of skating. You just choose not to take the bait. :)
  2. Polymer Bob

    Polymer Bob New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2007
    Messages:
    2,667
    Actually it's "an" uber. And it sounds like we are dealing with a limitation of the human body, not of any skater.

    I have never seen an argument that Caroline was gifted at any Nationals. ISU events perhaps, usually after she used that ugly mule-kick to trounce girls who placed above her at Nationals. :rofl:
  3. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    4,244
    It's absolutely viable, check out the men. The ones who LAND on strong curves (and many of them do) are usually the ones who are clean, hence, no downgrade. Same with the triple axels: often (in fact, usually), if the skater is skating, say, toward the judges on takeoff, they "pre-rotate" a bit before the blade leaves the ice and land perpendicular to the judges on the landing. Full rotation.
  4. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Messages:
    3,539
    The classic example of Zhang's being gifted was 2009 Nationals, before her big growth spurt.

    Her free skate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XD6y-JhR-w

    Protocols: http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/events/200708/uschamps/protocols/seniorladies-protocols.pdf

    Negative Grades of Execution for Jumps: http://gofigureskating.com/skills/jumps/compete.html (I'm not sure all of this is exactly as it was at the time, but it's close enough.)

    Negative Grades of Execution for Spins: http://gofigureskating.com/skills/spins/compete.html

    Some of the more questionable marks for GOE:

    3F(!)+3T< Unclear edge on flip, mule kick on flip, underrotated triple toe loop. Could have received -3's. Only one judge gave her a -3. Most gave her a -1.
    3Z(!)+2T Looked back before entering the first jump, unclear edge on lutz, mule kick on flipp. Could have received -3's. Only judge gave her a -3. Most gave her a -1. Two judges gave her a 0. :rolleyes:
    2A Very slow entrance. Could have received -1's, and that is what most judges did giver her. Two judges, however, gave her 0's.
    CCoSp4 Traveled all over the place. Could have received -2 or -3, but all of the judges gave her +1 or +2.
    3F(!) Unclear edge, mule kick. Could have received -3's. One judge gave her a -2. The others gave her a -1 or a 0.

    And let's take a look at how the judges marked her on PCS. I've marked the Scores of Panel with underlining and put what I believe are the most questionable scores in boldface:

    http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/appA-IJS.pdf

    The judge who gave Zhang PCS of 8.00 7.75 8.25 8.25 8.50 gave Ashley Wagner, who won the Free Skate, marks of only 7.75 6.75 7.50 7.25 7.25.

    Yeah, right. :scream:
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2013
  5. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2002
    Messages:
    20,569
    For a lot of people the combinations might have "looked" or "felt" rotated. But what matters is the hard facts: the slo-mo.

    Sylvia has kindly linked the videos but you can't slo-mo on YT.

    You are right but I was talking about the blade.

    It will have some but I don't think anywhere near as much as the loop, from my observations anyway,

    Ok, fair enough. If true, this would make Oppegard's point moot.

    Or in other words: 'She's trying a difficult combo, which she can't really fully rotate it because her jump technique is not exactly top drawer but we still want her to get full credit so we'll blame the system.' :p

    I found a clip of Zhang's SP now so will check soon whether that was the case or not and report back.
  6. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

    Joined:
    May 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,166
    The video that is reviewed in slo-mo by the technical panel is different (not filmed at the same angle) as the TV broadcast video, but we all know this, right?

    For variety's sake, I personally would like to see more triple-triple combos attempted that end with loop rather than toe.
  7. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2002
    Messages:
    20,569
    Ok, I've just downloaded and watched Zhang's Nationals SP video and I think the underrotation was quite apparent. Even without the slo-mo, if you have a trained eye for this kind of thing (as the technical panel members should), you could notice the landings were skiddy and didn't have a lot of flow out, which should ring alarm bells. Also, she didn't get a lot of height or have a lot of speed in so you'd have to have great timing and very sharp rotation in order to make it.

    Upon reviewing it frame-by-frame:

    First 3loop Take-Off
    http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/6192/20130124usnatslsp11caro.jpg

    Not sure if you can see it from this picture but if you watch the video, she's skating on a curve, not parallel to the boards but a little more inwards (towards the camera)

    (Btw, this is what I was talking about when I said loops pretty much have to be 1/2 pre-rotated).

    First 3loop Landing
    http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/6192/20130124usnatslsp11caro.jpg

    Is it the pre-rotation that was an issue? No. Zhang should be landing this jump backwards, turned slightly more inwards towards the camera, in comparison to the boards. You can see in this picture that her blade touches the ice way earlier.

    Second 3loop Take-Off
    http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/6192/20130124usnatslsp11caro.jpg

    Here she pre-rotates more than 1/2 (again, you have to watch the video yourself to see the whole curve). The take-off edge is on a quite pronounced inward curve this time (towards the camera again), more so than before.

    Second 3loop Landing
    http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/6192/20130124usnatslsp11caro.jpg

    Blade touches the ice and she still needs to do more than 1/2 rotation (she should be landing backwards on a quite pronounced inward curve towards the camera). If you watch it frame by frame (you can do it on Media Player Classic by pressing Ctrl+Right Arrow) you can see that she rotates over 1/2 on the ice before coming out of the jump.

    Based on watching that combination frame-by-frame, to me she has clearly and unquestionably deserved < on the first jump and << on the other. And that's not even taking the pre-rotation into consideration at all. Just the under-rotation alone. So the technical panel did give her allowance for the 1/2 pre-rotation on the loop and she was only required to complete 2 1/2 revolutions in the air (so you can't say ISU is being too harsh on the edge jumps). I see absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever with those calls.

    I agree with you but if the skaters can't do it, they can't do it and it's not the system's fault.

    I think the problem here is not the right risk vs. reward ratio. Loop combos are much much harder than the toe combos but they don't get any extra credit. So it isn't really worth the risk at all. :(

    A number of male skaters did have fully rotated 3/3 loop combos credited a number of times though. Off the top of my head:
    Przemyslaw Domanski
    Kevin Reynolds
    Joey Russell
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2013
  8. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    9,971
    I blame Sarah Hughes beating Irina in SLC. If that never happened, nobody would care about URs. Now it's all people care about. Not saying that it's not important or that it shouldn't be accounted for because it should, but I find it funny how people care so much about it now compared to pre-COP.

    Yeah, tell me how I'm wrong.
  9. Polymer Bob

    Polymer Bob New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2007
    Messages:
    2,667
    Yes, what a wonderful gift she received at 2009 Nationals. The judges pumped up Alissa's PCS because they wanted a "lady" to win, and bumped Caroline off the World team.
    But anyway, Alissa got her title and a trip to Worlds, Caroline got her "gift", and the USFSA got their lady. So I guess it was win - win - win all the way around.
    hanca and (deleted member) like this.
  10. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2002
    Messages:
    10,588
    Speaking as a Mirai fan, you know I hate URs. But I can't get behind the argument that quality shouldn't matter. The reduced base value for < is very fair.

    If this were the NFL, they would show us a mark, with the telestrator, where the in air rotation starts, and another mark where it ends.

    Do the judges see the < or << before they award their GOE? Because they hit her pretty hard on that.
  11. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2006
    Messages:
    2,482
    Imo she was underscored in PE and In, both less than 7. NOT that my feelings matter in judging, but her performance was the only one that moved me at this event.
  12. Polymer Bob

    Polymer Bob New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2007
    Messages:
    2,667
    That's a great idea. In the future, they can use skaters' tracings to judge rotation. They would need cameras mounted on the ceiling pointed straight down. I can't see why that wouldn't work.
  13. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2005
    Messages:
    916
    I think that is the most obvious way to clarify a jump. Also the same wrt correct edge take offs. I loved going to live competitions and even just watching them warm-up you see who has a deep lutz edge, who is skidding too much on the axel take-off (Lysacek's axel tracings were quite interesting)
  14. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2002
    Messages:
    20,569
    Why do you think it has anything to do with Irina? The judging system was completely different back then. There were no technical panels, no slo-mo replays and a lot of less noticeable things like this were ignored.

    Did anybody (other than me :p) even care about and mention Hughes' underrotations? I don't remember even Irina or her camp raising that issue.

    By the way, Yukina Ota became Junior World champion massively underrotating every single triple jump in her program. :scream:

    They do, yes.

    For one season they didn't but it created this really silly situation where skaters would get < and << but +1 and +2 GOEs sometimes making the judges look like fools so the ISU decided they should see it. :p

    Although to be fair to the judges, spotting cheats is often very hard - if not downright impossible - without slo-mo.

    Yes, because tracings are always easily visible, especially once 7 or 10 skaters have already skated since the last ice resurface... :huh:
  15. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2005
    Messages:
    916
    Hmm, I disagree. There is such a thing called 'resurfacing' or am I confusing that with another sport? You don't have to worry about 20 lutz tracings all in one spot. And it should be quite easy to follow a skater into the takeoff so that the edge is pretty well documented. If tennis can follow one shot on recall, so should skating be able to follow a tracing. Just saying.

    I just feel that an UR has to be egregious for it to be dinged so badly. Sarah Hughes was the master of egregious URs, as she'd totally prerotate everything and then land 1/2 to 3/4 UR, especially on her flip and lutz. Maybe her toe was okay, and with edge jumps there's always a bit of PR.

    As for tracings, remember in fall 1997 with all the Tara lutz controversy and what's his face (Tara's coach, Eldgredge's mentor figure) said Kwan did too, and Frank said to come over and look at Kwan's tracings. Well, to be honest, Kwan's tracings were also flutzy. They weren't as bad as Tara's since Tara made a perfect C with her left foot edge, but Kwan didn't have any visible outside edge tracing, and most always turned inward at takeoff. It's noticeable when you see a perfect lutz takeoff (Yebin Mok had a glorious lutz, perfect tracing, and perfect height, distance, etc). Sarah Hughes' lutz tracings practically made an O she was so inside the edge and PR.
  16. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2002
    Messages:
    20,569
    Every 12 skaters. So good luck noticing tracings after 10 skaters have skated. :p

    And not every skater will leave easily visible tracings.

    And honestly, we have HD cameras now so you know you can actually watch skaters' blades and how they move in air and when they take off and land exactly.

    It's like counting everything in your head instead of using a calculator. Yes you can do it but why?

    (Also in this case, the tracing method has failed so there. :p)
  17. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2005
    Messages:
    916
    Okay, Ziggy, because I feel if someone repeatedly does a C or flutz into a lutz jump they shoud be HAMMERED. Kwan never was. And she NEVER EVER went on a BO edge for her lutz. EVER. Watch the tracings, though I'm sure you would just conjure up a conspiracy of the rest of the ladies. NO. I watched her time and time and time and time again. She NEVER achieved a BO edge for her lutz. Sometimes she flattened it, but that even was rare.

    This isn't a Kwan bash, puhlease. But I sometimes think these hanger ons need to at least accept truth. Jeez. I NEVER saw a BO tracing on her lutz, and believe back in the day I was there at everything. It was obvious they'd give Kwan a pass so long as she sold her program and ended it with the Tarasova footwork with angst and emotion. Really, Kwan's lutz was a flip. Or a loop, depending on her takeoff.
  18. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,520
    Actually perhaps blame Tara. Didn't they give judges slo-mo replay sometime after everyone became obsessed with her flutz (and ladies flutzing in general)?
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2013
  19. Spazactaz

    Spazactaz New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,812
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=YDTYqmcDFpM#t=81s
    "It was a good solid outside edge too"
    "Sure was!!"

    Dick and Peggy sure don't agree. ;)
  20. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2005
    Messages:
    916
    I might agree except time and time again Kwan and Flutzy were credited for "lutzes" when anyone watching their practices could SEE as in visual PROOF they were not doing lutzes. This new system seems to let the favorites get by(like Asada) and ding the Nagasus of this world. It is still a very prickly judging. Those they WANT don't seem to get the deductions. The rest, like Mirai, are hosed.
  21. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    4,244
  22. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

    Joined:
    May 24, 2003
    Messages:
    19,411
    It depends. If it's called real time, then yes. If it's called after the marks are in during a post-program review, then it's too late, and there are no automatic adjustments based on the score being over the maximum, i.e. the maximum score given the bullet points less the minimum mandatory deductions for <, <<, e, and/or !, nor does the computer automatically lock in a maximum score, if they're called real time, and adjust the score if it's called during review. (For paper scoring, they'd have to be adjusted to the maximum legal score, if the score exceeded it.) The underrotations end up with a double hit if they're called on time, through base score and GOE, whereas it's all GOE for edge calls.

    I wish the tech panel was in charge of calling whether the steps proceeding the solo triple in the SP are sufficient, with one call for short break requiring deduction and another for a more severe deduction, like for underrotions and edges, or, alternately, calling levels on the intro footwork, with a LB if the break was long or the steps barely there, and L1 for minimal difficulty and/ or a shorter break. They could set the levels so that there was a big jump in base for L2-4, to compensate for the deductions that are applied sporadically for missing a key requirement in the SP. They could also level all jumps for the content bullet points (difficult exit and entry) and let the GOE be strictly about the quality of what was attempted.
  23. tonyahardly

    tonyahardly Banned Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    12
    Karen Kwan is way too passive to coach a skater like Caroline! Remember at Nationals one year recently where Caroline said "I look pissed!" in the kiss n cry? Karen just sugar coated the whole program. A skater needs a tough coach to tell them like it is!
  24. tonyahardly

    tonyahardly Banned Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    12
    Karen Kwan doesn't know a double from a quad! It took Caroline to point out that her lutz was underrotated! Caroline needs to hire Yuka Sato and Jason.
  25. tonyahardly

    tonyahardly Banned Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    12
    It's a real shame that Caroline wasn't around in the 90's. She would have had a great career on the professional circuit with her pearl spin and Triple loop Triple loop combo that IS fully rotated most of the time! I'd rather watch Caroline skate than Mirai any day.
  26. Philly2034

    Philly2034 Banned Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2013
    Messages:
    51
    I think that Karen Chen is the next Caroline Zhang.

    I mean they were both 13 year old Asian wunderkids who couldn't rotate their jumps.

    They both had breathtaking exhibitions.

    And they both fell short of expectations at their junior nationals when they were 13.
  27. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

    Joined:
    May 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,166
    I thought winning the 4th place pewter medal in Junior Ladies was an excellent accomplishment by Karen Chen at this year's U.S. Nationals. :) She certainly didn't fall short of my expectations.
  28. apatinar

    apatinar New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    633
    That is the last thing she needs to do.. There is something really cursed over there right now...
  29. Fudove

    Fudove New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2013
    Messages:
    39
    If after hiring Yuka and Jason then hire a coach that understands spin levels...:scream:
    Is Jason still a ISU tech caller? :confused: How is that possible if you dont know the rules?
  30. nylynnr

    nylynnr Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2005
    Messages:
    395
    IIRC Jason Dungjen is an ISU tech caller for pairs. With regard to Jeremy's spin, it's not the first time a situation of this kind has occurred. Other top skaters, with top coaches, have actually completed illegal spins in competition and lost points. It's possible Jeremy's coaches specifically asked officials to watch out for the spin in the practice in Omaha. It's also possible other skaters have been told of illegal elements, right before competition, but have not been as open and generous with reporters in the mixed zone as Jeremy tends to be. The error was caught in time and, IMO, many skaters are still seeking out Yuka and Jason as coaches.
  31. axel12345

    axel12345 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2007
    Messages:
    59
    Huh? I do not think Jeremy was walking around asking for judges for last minute critiques or advice. He arrived later than all of the other competing men and missed the initial practices. I will give Yuka a pass on not double checking before Nationals my guess is she trusted Jason ...but he should have known better.
    How do you know he was open and generous with reporters, I am sure he wasn't stopping them to report an oversight by his team :shuffle:

    Ice Network did not have to report the mistakes by his team, they did because it was unusual. That is what news is ---stuff that happens that is unusual. I am glad they ran the story. Everyone makes mistakes, but this one was not Jeremy's he trusted his coaches. Whether it was reported by the press or he kept it to himself --- Jeremy knew. I am sure that it is a hit on your confidence that your coaching team is exposed for technical errors and your program has to be changed just before you compete.
  32. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    9,971
    Nice to know that other coaches are perfect.
  33. Polymer Bob

    Polymer Bob New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2007
    Messages:
    2,667
    Caroline's coaches seemed to be doing well last season. If Caroline hadn't done so poorly in the Grand Prix, she would have gotten better scores at Nationals. I'm not sure what the problem was back in the fall.