Article : Skater Caroline Zhang takes positive approach

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Polymer Bob, Jan 26, 2013.

  1. Polymer Bob

    Polymer Bob New Member

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  2. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Yes, thanks for linking the article, Polymer Bob.
  3. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I was very proud of the way Caroline skated her LP last night. Regardless of the marks or placement, how satisfying that must have been! She is truly a fighter.
  4. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    ^^^
    So was I!
    Thanks for sharing.
  5. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

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    I was very proud of Caroline too and hope she comes back next season!
  6. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    I hope Caroline tries something different next season. Nobody seems to know what to do for her though. She has to get a little bit physically stronger somehow, and I think it's not easy with her body.
  7. all_empty

    all_empty Well-Known Member

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    I hope Caroline is pleased with her performances at Nationals despite her placement.

    She didn't get any UR calls in her freeskate, which is a great sign. Those cost her dearly in the short (had she done a fully-rotated 3Lo+2T and 3F, she would've been at least 3-4 places ahead in that segment.

    Let's not forget she's still only 19.

    I hope she uses the summer to work on her jumps even more, get more speed, and some exciting programs along the lines of her 2008 and 2009 SP that "push" her.
  8. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    Caroline was amazing and her LP was one of the highlights of the night. She could have easily given up after the short. I know the UR's were there in the short but it has to hurt when you feel like you were an inch away from the top 3 after the short, literally. Her LP was so good and her first double axel, in particular, was such an improvement from what she has been doing in years past.

    I think she needs music that pushes her. The slow music does her no favors. I thought the same thing watching Mirai's LP.
    l'etoile and (deleted member) like this.
  9. Polymer Bob

    Polymer Bob New Member

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    That's what I thought. She has to increase her strength to weight ratio. She is just going to have to hit the gym hard.
  10. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    She seems like a very nice person, and I actually feel really bad for her that her skating career seems to have been born with these massive shortcomings in speed and jump technique. That said, if she truly wants to become relevant compared to the top 10 at Nationals, she's going to have to do things in her training that she's never done before. I'm not sure what has been holding her back from truly getting more power/speed, interesting choreo, etc. into her skating, and by god I'm not saying that is easy to achieve. But for someone who seems to take this very seriously, I have to wonder if she's afraid or somehow resistant to change or pushing herself out of her comfort zone. I'm sure Tammy Gambill has some thoughts on this subject, I'd love to know what her experience w/ CZ was...:shuffle:
  11. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

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    I think there may just be some limits to fast a certain person can skate or how high they jump. You look at the young Kostner, Kim or Gold, and they just fly down the rink. Is that because they train so much harder/better than Caroline? I doubt it, they all work hard but some skaters are just built for speed. Caroline has great flexibility, but not so much speed and power. It's a great credit to her that she almost has that 3L-3L rotated, I honestly wish the caller would give it to her, that's such a hard combo and hers are about as good as Lipinski's. (seems a bit unfair that it was instrumental in helping Lipinski win an OGM and Zhang gets clobbered in the marks). She should be proud of how she skated these last two Nationals , her hard work and preserverence really do come through in these performances.
  12. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    What a joy it was to see Miss Zhang skate two phenomenal programs at US Nationals this past week, complete with the only 3R/3R combo. being done in the world today! :cool:

    So glad I got to see her skate live at 2010 SA because she's just as phenomenal in person...
  13. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    The Orange County Register's follow-up on Zhang in their FS article:
  14. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Yes. I think she'd need somebody to really push her out of her comfort zone. And given how often she's changed coaches, I'd guess she's quite resistant to change.
  15. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    I have assumed that improving power/speed is just a natural challenge for her flexible body. Send her to Tarasova.
  16. apatinar

    apatinar New Member

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    There is really no need to send her anywhere to eat up more of her parent's money. The judges have shown that no matter what she does -she is done. She can improve her jumps, but they will never be to the standard that USFS wants.... Her body after puberty is no longer aesthetically pleasing for skating with her longer/bigger torso and shorter thicker legs and all of this stress of trying to make it / trying to recapture her former star power is taking it's toll as a lot of her strong hairline has fallen out..
    She has enough international medals to call it a good career. She should be thinking about school now and moving on with the next phase of her life... Especially because there isn't even any money in skating anymore to have her do show skating as a middle of the pack senior skater..
  17. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    I think it's wonderful that her parents have supported her dream, but then there may be another side to it. Perhaps her parents want it more for her than they should. She is very smart, and I also hope she takes advantage of those gifts. Does she say she wants to start college in the fall of 2014?
  18. maureenfarone

    maureenfarone Active Member

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    I think the decision to continue with skating or not is up to Caroline and her parents/sponsors. To me she has always needed power and speed. I recall Michelle Kwan going to Irina Rodina early in her career which really helped her develop power. After she left Frank and went to Rafael he chased her around the rink to force her to skate faster - and it worked. Perhaps some lessons with Rafael (not full time) would help with these issues. I know Lake Arrowhead is a 1+hr. drive from LA so maybe that really isn't feasible during certain times of the year.

    A lot depends on Caroline and how much work/travel she is willing or able to put into skating.
    I thought her FS at Nationals was really very nice and if she chooses to call that her final competitive skate she has nothing to be ashamed of.
  19. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Peter Oppegard spoke out about Caroline Zhang's 3Lo<+3Lo<< SP combo (Base Value reduced to 5.40, she received 3.80 points for it) - I posted the IN article link and excerpt in the U.S. Ladies thread yesterday: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/sho...al-into-2013&p=3823679&viewfull=1#post3823679
    l'etoile and (deleted member) like this.
  20. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    Thanks! I've been wondering what her coaches were thinking about Caroline's URs.

    I gotta say I have to agree with this. 3 Loop is very tricky in counting rotations.
  21. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Doing triple loop as the second jump in combination is just not worth it. Same as Asada and Ando, who both stopped doing it because it was frequently downgraded. In fact, there is not many ladies at senior level who do it, because it tend to get often downgraded.
  22. Polymer Bob

    Polymer Bob New Member

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    I think she was given credit last year at Nationals for her 3loop-3loop. Something changed; either her execution or the manner of judging.
  23. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Caroline's second loop was called underrotated at last year's Nationals - 3Lo+3Lo< (8.70 Base Value, 9.00 points).

    I think Oppegard made some valid points and believe the ISU technical committee should "re-examine the issue" (and the sooner the better).
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2013
  24. carriecmu0503

    carriecmu0503 Member

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    Though she stepped out of it, she did get full credit for the 3loop3loop combo at 4CC last year, iirc.
  25. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Yes, 10.20 Base Value, - 1.60 GOE, received 8.60 points for the combo.
  26. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    The thing is, though, both the caller and the judges found her combo lacking a bit this year. The -GOE comes from the judges. Not sure if they get to see things on replay or not. I know they used to towards the end of 6.0, but not sure about now.

    And, um, Lipinski's 3l3l was rotated a lot more than Caroline's, although I agree judges were too harsh on it. I think it should have been 3l-3l< instead of 3l<-3l<<.
  27. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    How many places would she have moved up had it been fully credited?
  28. Polymer Bob

    Polymer Bob New Member

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    More places that the overlords of USFSA would have liked.

    Why is it we are always arguing over whether Caroline got screwed over at Nationals? When do we get to argue over whether she was gifted? :wall:
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2013
  29. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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  30. falling_dance

    falling_dance The Scarlet Unlettered

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    If the base value of a 3r3r is still 10.20, then the addition of 6.40 to the 3.80 she received for the attempt would have raised Zhang's score to 56.39, which would've given her the seventh highest point total in the SP, ahead of Cesario and behind Siraj. Of course, this is assuming no positive GOE for the successful combination, the same PCS, the same GOEs for other elements, and the same scores for everyone else. :eek:
  31. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Which means she is viewed at 7th best AT BEST even after she would have landed the hardest combo of the night

    It is interesting with their tough approach on loop combos because Asada and Ando were doing much more fully rotated loop combos than Hughes and Slutskaya.
  32. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    The question is: Did Zhang get the < and << because of pre- or under-rotation?

    If it's the latter, than there isn't really anything to re-examine her. Move along.

    But if it's the former, then ISU should really prepare some guidelines on this.

    Because whilst you shouldn't really have any pre-rotation on toe jumps, you will always have some pre-rotation on the edge jumps. Such is the nature on the beast.

    On the axel, it's usually minimal, on the salchow you will usually see a little bit as well but on the loop, you can pretty much expect the skater to turn almost 1/2 before leaving the ice. It's physically not possible to perform the loop without pre-rotation.

    Technical specialists and controllers should know that.

    But to be honest, skaters pretty much never ever get < or << for take-offs even if they really should (Meissner winning Worlds... :wall:).

    So my guess would be Zhang's issue was landings and not take-offs. If I can find a video link, I'll watch the combo in slo-mo.
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2013
  33. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    But it IS possible to do three full rotations from the point where the blade leaves the ice, regardless of pre-rotation, which would be a clean jump.
    Ozzisk8tr and (deleted member) like this.
  34. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    I dunno, I'd say anything between 1/4 and 1/2 is fair game on the loop take-off. So to land it backwards after exactly three rotations, you'd have to be doing it on a really strong curve, which I don't think is really viable. Thoughts from skaters/coaches?
  35. sk9tingfan

    sk9tingfan Well-Known Member

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    My friend, a coach was sitting directly in front of where Caroline did the 3L-3L. Not only did she feel that the combo was completed from viewing it, she looked at the tracings on the ice and they were completed.
  36. apatinar

    apatinar New Member

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    So that says that she simply was dumped by the judges who are through giving her chances..
  37. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    Loops hold the take off edge and then leave from a toe pick. It's hard to explain exactly where you'd draw the line for pre-rotations since you do start turning on your toe pick even before you leave the ice. I would assume that's even more true as the second triple jump in a combo since you don't have as much leeway to use your arms/speed because a lot of this depends on how well you land the first jump and how much speed you carry into your second.
  38. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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  39. nylynnr

    nylynnr Active Member

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    I think it's more than that, and it doesn't involve any kind of conspiracy and isn't limited to Zhang. There may be an issue with how the tech panels look at loop combinations. As has been noted in this thread, other skaters, including Miki Ando -- generally considered a good jumper -- have had loop combinations consistently downgraded. Eventually, Morozov told Ando to forget trying a triple-triple, it wasn't worth it. Knowledgeable people, with no axes to grind, thought Zhang rotated those triples.
    Sylvia and (deleted member) like this.
  40. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    When the pick hits the ice on the toe-loop, the upper body is already rotated to be perpendicular to the direction of travel. If you freeze frame the moment the pick hits the ice on the other toe jumps, you'll see more or less a pre rotation by 1/2 turn of the upper body also.

    The salchow will often have more than a 1/2 pre-rotation, especially on the triple. I'm not sure why the poor loop is being picked on so much.