Article: Lubov Iliushechkina wants to skate for France, but...

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, May 19, 2012.

  1. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    I thought this article translation deserved its own thread in GSD (ETA: refer to post #191 and following in the "Russia With Love - 2012 Off Season" thread):
    (I assume Yannick Kocon is the French pair skater - he previously skated for Italy with Nicole Della Monica at the 2010 Olympics.)
    Last edited: May 19, 2012
  2. care bear

    care bear Active Member

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    According to last "Pirouette" she wants to skate with Kocon.
  3. Eislauffan

    Eislauffan Well-Known Member

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    Yes, she confirmed that she is training with Yannick Kocon. But I don't know where and under which coach.
  4. IceIceBaby

    IceIceBaby New Member

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    "We don't want another Anissina" :rolleyes: Just like they would have a realistic chance to win a medal in Sochi.

    I hope Lubov can represent France, skate with her new parter and be happy!

    I wonder if Natalia Pavlova has commented this yet.
  5. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    But the situation here is not that simple. Sure, Anissina was able to switch the nationality to skate in olympics but back then after the breakup with Averbuch she was sort of neglected by russian federation which forced her to find the partner on her own. Now they're all for to keep her in Russia and seemingly willing to support her at their best. I feel extremely sorry for tha gal really but I don't think Russia will ever allow her compete for France.

    The Part that worries me is where the article talks about her suicide attempt. They 'd better get her to psychiatrist right away:(
  6. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    She will be able to, after two years have passed, no?
  7. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    I find this disturbing on so many levels, but most of all that Piseev would reveal that Iliushechkina had suicidal thoughts.

    And yet he had no compunction about Tatiana Volozhar. :rolleyes:

    (And, yes, I know that the Ukrainian Federation was willing to release her, but I do recall rumors that one of the reasons was that its Russian counterpart paid it off to secure the release.)

    Iliushechkina & Kocon :kickass:
  8. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Does he need to be released by Italy?
  9. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    In theory, I think so. There's a limit how much russia can push/put off. If Iliushechkina is looking ahead for Pyeongchang, she might be able to. But those two years of waiting and endurance won't go by easy for her or her partner.
  10. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    If Lubov gets citizenship from France (which she will need anyway if she wants to compete in Sochi), does that mean she does not need to be released by Russia?

    How long did it take Marina to get French citizenship? She and Gwendal competed at Euros and Worlds in 1994, but not the Olympics, so it must have taken her until Nagano to get it?

    I feel awful for Lubov, first of all going through whatever it was and then having it made public. :( I do understand the Russian fed's position... for so many years they lost a lot of "their" skaters/coaches to other countries and now they're trying not to repeat those mistakes. And it's not like they're asking her to just sit around and wait, they've given her a good offer with Moskvina. I wonder if they would let Kocon come and represent Russia (maybe he could get released by Italy to Russia) and have them be coached by Moskvina... that would be :kickass:
  11. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    I can't imagine that happening and even if it did, she'd still need to be released, IIRC.

    Why when there are many better Russian prospective partners?

    And the whole point of this - as I understand it - is that after whatever has happened to Ilushechkina, she wants to get as far away from the Russian Fed as possible. :/
  12. Wyliefan

    Wyliefan Well-Known Member

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    Holy cow. That poor girl. :(
  13. Libertango

    Libertango New Member

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    Yannick Kocon is French. I assume he still has both citizenship.
    He skated for France as a single skater until 2007 (even went to Jr worlds IIRC) then was released by France to skate pairs for Italy. His last competition was in 2010 so I don't know if he needs to be released or if he can switch back to France.
  14. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

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    I think the key point is that Lubov does not want to skate for Russia after whatever the poor girl's been through. She wants a fresh start in a more positive environment.

    I can't even imagine what happened, and it wasn't appropriate for them to say that she was in such a bad position.
  15. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Thus my confusion ;). What happens when a skater switches federations - and then wants to switch back?
  16. Eislauffan

    Eislauffan Well-Known Member

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    The skater can switch back but has to observe any possible waiting period. Italy would need to release him, too, but he doesn't need to wait as he didn't compete for Italy in the past two seasons.

    Since he still holds French citizenship (I assume) maybe he doesn't even need the release.
  17. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    This was a very clever move on Gorshkov's part. If released publicly from Iliushenchkina's side,, the diaries could have been explosive and there could have been calls to investigate Pavlova's rink and to release Iliushechkina immediately.

    This way, he took the initiative and could spin it the way he wanted, and he took a page out of the Cinquanta SLC playbook and came up with a proactive solution that brushes aside serious issues and makes the Russian Fed looked concerned and generous: they will give her a new partner -- although I'd love to know exactly who this world-class skater they've been hiding is -- and send her to Moskvina, who knows how to deal with traumatized female pairs skaters. At the same time, she looks hysterical, impulsive, and ready to give up the fatherland, and Pavlova is on record as saying she tried to talk to Iliushenchkina about her eating, but she couldn't do anything if her skater was in denial and resisted. (I hope LI can contact Suzuki.)

    Very clever damage control.

    She'd has no shot at Sochi in Russia, and she'd be dependent on the Russian Fed for GP host picks and Senior B's over the two seasons she'd be sitting out waiting for a release. The Russian Fed paying for everything is the advantage of taking them up on their offer, but she'd be more likely to help France in the team event post Sochi.

    Her last international competition was NHK in November 2011; with a release she could start international competitions for France as soon as this Fall. France could apply for an exception under Rule 109 Paragraph 5 if Russia won't release her for two seasons (2.5 years from her last competition. Whether it would be worth it to the French Fed to take on the Russian Fed that way is questionable, but it might be tempting since France has two reliably strong disciplines, Dance and Men, and Iliushechkina/Kocon could mean not taking an automatic last in Pairs.
    Domshabfan and (deleted member) like this.
  18. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Russian citizenship has different obligations than other countries' citizenship, and those obligations persistent until one can "prove the absence of Russian citizenship".
  19. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Is one of those obligations to represent one's country in sport?
  20. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Quite disturbing. I hope at the end of the day she can do what she wants.
  21. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Pertinent portion of ISU Rule 109:

    I find it difficult to believe that Kocon would ever have renounced his French citizenship. (In fact, I have some vague recollection that he has some Italian ancestry, so he may have had Italian citizenship before he ever teamed up with Nicole Della Monica). IINM, even if he did, he could get it back easily.

    Kocon has already sat out a year, so, if he is still a French citizen, he can skate pairs for France whenever he wants.

    Iliushechkina moved to France earlier this year. The date she started living there is the starting point for the one-year minimum period for sitting out competitions. However, she did compete in two Grand Prix events in 2011, so she has to sit out the entire 2012-13 season. At that point, since she has apparently already applied for French citizenship, there is nothing the Russian Federation can do to stop her because they can't stop her from competing.

    IIRC, Marina Anissina, Lloyd Jones, and Vanessa James all obtained French citizenship fairly rapidly, so there is a good chance that Iliushechkina can obtain French citizenship before the next Winter Olympics.

    Now, as yourselves, how likely is it that the Russian Federation would send Iliushechkina and whatever partner they might team her with to Euros or Worlds next season? Not very, if you ask me. So, at most, if she stays with Kocon, she misses out on a few Grand Prix events next season and maybe in 2013-14. Big deal.
    Last edited: May 20, 2012
  22. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Rule 109 2c, which you quote and add emphasis, contradicts this, since the residency provision is Rule 109 2 b 1, which does not apply to an "other" (non-citizen) partner. The waiting period has nothing to do with residency since she is a non-citizen pairs skater, but all to do with her last competition at NHK in November 2011*, since Kocon holds French citizenship.

    *I received a PM with the correction.
    Last edited: May 20, 2012
  23. Libertango

    Libertango New Member

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    I think that's a very good point. The french fed has refused to release skaters in the past for Russia and the other way round. They've also invested $$$ on James/Cipres (and sped up V. James' citizenship in 2 years). Yes Popova/Massot skated badly at WTT but they can do so much better. J/C and P/M almost got France 3 spots at Euros this year!
    Iliushechkina will need to get her confidence (and jumps) back and taking a bit of time off to gel as a team might be a good thing.
  24. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    The one rule doesn't contradict the other, it supervenes it.

    If she hadn't skated in international competition this past season, she'd be subject two the 12-calendar-months rule. But she did, so she will to sit out a full season in order to skate for France.

    Regardless, the difference between the two clauses doesn't make much difference to Iliushechkina unless the Russian Federation is actually going to send her to big events in the second half of the 2012-13 season.

    Even if they could team her up with an outstanding partner, I wouldn't blame her for wanting to switch federations. As it is, Kocon's ISU Championship record in Pairs, with an inferior partner, is almost as good as Iliushechkina's.
  25. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    The rule contradicted your statement that her wait-out period is based on a year's residence. It's not, because she's an "other" skater in a pair or dance team.

    That's not correct. There is only one rule that applies (2c), and that's "However, if such partner has already represented another Member, egardless of the discipline, the permit from the Member the Skater represented is required and the waiting period 12 months from the day of the last competition in which the Skater represented another Member applies;" For her, that's one year from NHK 2011, which means November 2012.

    There's no wait-out period for switching partners within the same Federation. She could get a host pick with another Russian partner for Rostelecom Cup -- she and Maisuradze never went to Worlds, so she never had a chance to place high enough (1-12) to qualify as a "Split Couple" for the alternates list -- and she could be assigned to any Senior B with a Russian partner. Were she to get a release before then, which Gorshkov said he wasn't willing to do, she could start skating in Senior B's after mid-November, beginning with Warsaw Cup.
  26. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I see that now. But it's still not that much of a sacrifice, is it?

    By the way, does anyone have any idea what skater the Russians could partner Iliushechkina up with if she does change her mind?
  27. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    No, that's one of the big mysteries. If they don't break up an existing top pair, and Kavaguti's not retiring yet, they'd have to go with a Junior, and it looks like they've already re-paired a handful of couples, some due to the woman's growth spurt.

    It could be a case of "train with X for the next two years" in Moskvina's rink and then inherit Smirnov after Sochi.
  28. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    The move certainly is clever, almost too clever and smart. Personally I think the first big task for Russian Fed should have been a proper investigation of what was going on in Pavlova's group. In case it turned out that Iliushenchkina was exaggerating - don't let her go. The decision of RFSF would be really justified in such a case. :bloc:

    But just in case things going on were bad enough that they might lead even psychologically healthy person to think of suicide, I think insisting on Iliushenchkina competing for Russia is simply inhuman. RFSF might argue a lot on how much money they invested in a skater but considering the young age of most athletes it's also their task & duty to keep an observing eye on their coaches and too ensure that their athletes have physically and psychologically healthy training conditions.:fragile: :sekret:

    In any case I feel for Iliushenchkina - I hope she can find a solution to continue skating in a way she likes to do it. :(
    hanca and (deleted member) like this.
  29. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Kwanfan1818 - great analysis.

    Gorshkov knew exactly what he was doing.

    I really hope that Iliushechkina can find a way to get a release and skate with Kocon.
  30. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    The thing is, why should Iliushenchkina trust the RSSF? They only agreed to find her another partner after she found herself another one and asked to be released. Whose to say they will actually do what they say or that they will do it for now but later on ignore her situation and any problems she's having?

    I think if they said to her "Come to Moskvina with your new partner and skate for us" that she'd have no complaint but they are promising her some nebulous partner in the future. If I were her, I'd go for the bird in the hand over 2 in the bush (Moskvina as coach being the other bird).
    hanca and (deleted member) like this.
  31. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    It's clearly an attempt to silence her.

    They'd give her some mediocre (for Russian standards) partner and one B-International at best and she'd probably never make the National team again.

    Given how inconsistent both Popova/Massot and James/Cipres seem to be, I can imagine her winning French Nationals if she manages to land her jumps.
  32. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    Very sad, but I too think so. :(
    Russian Fed is :EVILLE: and I wait for the day when the :lynch: finally starts! :angryfire
  33. BittyBug

    BittyBug Kiteless

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    If the Russian Fed's goal is to win medals (which it quite clearly is), then shorting Iliuscheskina by providing her with a sub-par partner would not further their objectives. She is a very talented ladies pairs skater, so it would behoove them to find her a suitable partner (assuming they have one). And Moskvina is not known for just passing the time idly, so I can't imagine that their goal in sending Lubov to Moskvina is to effectively put her out to pasture.
  34. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Sometimes blocking others from being competitive is a strategy.
  35. BittyBug

    BittyBug Kiteless

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    I totally get blocking her from going to France, but what would Russia have to gain by trying to hold Iliuscheskina back within Russia (which seemed to be Ziggy's cynical theory)? I don't think the Russian Fed particularly cares which pairs team medals, as long as there are Russians on the podium.
  36. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    They look really bad if they don't offer her another partner, but refuse to release her. A partner who is less experience could gain from her experience, and if it worked out better than expected, fine.
  37. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Volosozhar situation was very different. All concerned parties were willing to send her to Russia, with the goal to win a championship. It was clear that Ukraine did not have a good enough partner for her, and they were willing to give her the opportunity in Russia.

    That is very different from a skater (Lubov) leaving due to some issues with either herself and/or with the coach/rink. I am not even sure that Iliushechkina's choice of a new partner that she found on the internet is a good long term solution for her as a pairs skater. She can do what she wants with her life- it may even work out for her, on and/or off the ice- but as far as the RSF goes, they have made the effort to help her. They did invest a lot in her, so it is understandable that they won't just release her. They do have to take care of their skating program.

    It's not clear from what's been published that Lubov seeked help from her fed while she was feeling abused or whatever. She wrote a lot in her diaries but how much effort was made to correct the situation? To me, it just looks like an unfortunate situation that could have been avoided, or addressed much earlier. Hopefully everything will turn out fine for all parties, but it is unreasonable to expect that the Russian fed would just let her go to compete in Sochi for another country.
  38. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    *Ahem*

    Apparently, she was considering suicide. Most suicidal/clinically depressed young people -- especially if they aren't full-time students, with access to free counseling-- don't go to institutional authorities (skating federation, employer, whatever) and say, "I'm suicidal. Please help me." If you believe otherwise, you should do some reading about the subject.

    While it is understandable that the Russian Federation doesn't want to lose any return on its investment, publicizing a skater's mental health problems (which I assume is what Piseev is doing, since the alternative explanation, i.e., that he is lying, is too disgusting to consider) is inexcusable. The decision not to release her is the least of it.
  39. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    I also think it's disingenuous to refer to her new partner as "someone she found on the internet." It's not like he's some random guy no one has ever heard of. So they connected via email instead of a phone call. That's not so unusual in this day and age.
  40. cholla

    cholla Fearless Musher

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    (For once) I don't find Ziggy's theory cynical but very logical. It's much more a matter of not losing something than gaining something else. To me, Pissev saying "we don't want another Anissina" means "we don't want another Russian skater blossoming in a foreign country and becoming a medal contender". He doesn't want to provide his opponents with eventual contenders as he already did once. I've seen countries saying a huge NO to the release of their skaters even when they had never hit the roof result-wise, but "just in case". Keeping them "home" is also a way to silence them when they've had some trouble said fed is not proud of.