Article about the 1st woman from the United Arab Emirates to compete internationally

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Apr 18, 2012.

  1. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    Because a few posters, including yourself, are clamoring for the elimination of the requirement.
    So what? Why do you bring up the roots? Should I bring up the roots of figure skating where there were barely any triple jumps? Why is this relevant?
    I don't really watch dance but I do watch men's. The requirements are different because the a man's body and a woman's body are better suited for different things physically, no matter what they told you in your sociology class. Are you advocating for the same standards in every sport? The London Olympics are coming up, should all athletes be judged by the same standard? Why separate men's and women's events at all? Let them all compete en masse against each other.
    I hope you find your happiness in other sources. Women are not putting a clean 3 axel in their program and you want several and a quad.
    So why not in a spiral? Some of them do it. But because they carry a burden of expectation of much more complex jump content, they don't have to. As I've mentioned, the women who can do more complex jumps are numbered like Tukt and Asada whose 3 axel was MIA this season. No one is holding the women back from harder jumps. No one.
    Yes. They have to do something if they are not doing quads or 3 axels.
    Really? I was under the impression that Zhang got penalized for the mule kick to the point that she had to relearn the technique. I wonder why she bothered if there was no penalty...Really, think about it.
    Excepting when the men throw in a quad in the SP. Which they are doing.
    Why are you comparing junior and seniors? First the roots of ballet, now a different age category? They are junior for a reason, the expectations are lower.
    You keep saying that but it's totally divorced from reality. Yes, they are forced if they want to be on the podium. End of story. It's a de facto rule.
     
  2. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Which is why I said "as far as I know".
     
  3. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    I could be misunderstanding something, but giving skaters a choice between a spiral sequence and MITF sequence is not the same as completely doing away with an element. I'm pretty sure we're still a long way away from having spirals and laybacks on an endangered species list when it comes to ladies programs...
     
  4. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    I would guess that most skaters would choose a path of least resistance. It's a numbers game, why exert yourself without extra incentive?
     
  5. agalisgv

    agalisgv Well-Known Member

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    Exactly

    Skaters go after the elements and levels based on points awarded for such. The reason so many do catch-foot positions is because they are awarded more points/higher levels. Step sequences and spins are awarded different levels based on the difficulty involved. Presumably a good layback would be worth more than an upright scratch spin. So skaters looking to capitalize on points would do that (or some fugly catch-foot variation :yikes: ).

    Personally I'd rather have skaters, both male and female, be able to craft programs that draw upon their strengths rather than impose some genderized notion of appropriate male/female skating. Let skaters choose for themselves how they want to express themselves artistically and aesthetically. This isn't the 1950's anymore, for goodness sake :p
     
  6. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately skating is still very much stuck in the 1950s. :wall:
     
  7. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    Skating is a judged sport, which means standards and requirements. If everyone did their own thing, there would no way to compare skateres' performances. And newsflash: most sports have women's and men's categories with different requirements, not just skating.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2012
  8. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Surely someone who was born into the former Soviet Union can appreciate the difference between restrictions/requirements and options/incentives, no?

    You asked "Where would ballet be?", and I answered it: to the standards of Petipa, arguably the greatest ballet choreographer of all time, not to mention Anna Pavlova, Mathilde Kschessinska, Olga Preobrajenska, Pierrina Legnani and the generation of ballerinas before them: Grahn, Grisi, Cerrito, and Taglioni. The ballerinas of the Italian style moved more quickly and could do a lot of technical things that modern day ballerinas cannot, much more akin to skating skills and step sequences than spirals and laybacks.

    Peggy Fleming was one of the most balletic Ladies skaters, and there wasn't a required spiral sequence in 1968. She added them, rarely lifting her leg above 95 degrees, as transitional elements.

    Or perhaps because the requirements are self-selecting, and the women who are successful are the ones who can meet the current women's requirements that emphasize flexibility at the expense of other skills?

    Almost every especially flexible ballerina I've heard speak or write on the subject has said that flexibility is a trade-off with control and stability. Perhaps women with less flexibility could have as important an impact on other aspects of figure skating -- for example, stronger jumps and/or Chan-like edges -- if they weren't screened out by the flexibility requirements. They're athletes, not applicants to the Vaganova Academy.

    Good form and technique within styles is common to most forms of movement, but figure skating is not ballet, and, IMO, should not be held to ballet standards or a ballet aesthetic.

    Having the same rules and competing against each other directly are very different things.

    Perhaps the best analogy to what I'd like to see in skating is diving. Men and women compete in the same categories (10m platform, 3m and 10m springboard, synchronized 3m springboard and 10m platform). The men do six dives and the women five, much like the Men's program is 30 seconds longer than the Ladies' programs. Both men and women are required to do one dive from each of the five categories, and the men chose a second dive from any category.

    The men choose dives with higher degrees of difficulty, yet the women are not required to do stick to some category of girlie dives that required additional physical characteristics or, for the most part, better form, or be restricted from highest degree of difficulty dives. (These are restricted by age, not gender.) There are graceful men and women divers, and there are powerful, athletic men and women divers. All are expected to point their toes and hold their straightened legs together on entry.

    Also, if there's a woman who can compete on all of the Men's apparatus and be the best all-around gymnast in those events or vice versa, I have no problem with them competing.


    You're talking to the wrong person here. I might clamor :mitchell: for the removal of gender-based restrictions and requirements in figure skating as well as changes to the Zayak rule to give skaters more options, but I've never been one to clamor for more rotations, and I'm the last person who would whine about Buttle earning a World Championship or Lysacek winning the Olympic gold medal without a quad and against men with them.

    I simply don't buy your argument that Ladies should have other requirements because they don't carry the burden of more complex jump content. They already have the higher bar to clear with the PCS penalty and higher standards for the same PCS scores. In the FS, they're already skating a program that's 30 seconds shorter.

    Not buying it.

    Yes, really. Zhang got fine scores when she was landing her mule-kick jumps and under-rotations weren't being called by the technical team -- she was well-rewarded with one Junior World gold and two Junior World silvers despite her mule-kick -- and she didn't bother to change her technique until she could no longer land her jumps. Kanako Murakami, was second in the SP at Nice despite her mule kick, and even though, combined with her growth spurt, it is already interfering with her landings, she was fifth overall.

    Some are.

    There are 15-20-year olds competing at Junior Worlds, and 15-20-year olds competing at Senior Worlds. (Sometimes, like Dennis Ten, they are competing at both.) The concession to their age is shorter programs and fewer elements in the FS, and a specific jump designated as the solo jump in the SP. However, if there is some absolute technical content that a skater should have to be able to do in order to not have to show flexibility skills, and most of the Junior Men aren't meeting that, shouldn't they have to display something else because, they're not doing twp 3A's and a quad or two quads and a 3A?

    I suppose they are on their way to be Real Men, and because of this, they get to use their training time on harder jumps and don't have to compromise jumping ability with flexibility requirements.

    It's an incentive. If they don't, then many times they aren't competitive, except when they are.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2012
  9. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    :huh: A non-sequitur.

    However, ballet isn't there, thankfully and these days a ballerina without flexibility will not find a job.
    Have you seen the movie The Social Network? If you have, you may recall that Mark Zuckerberg was accused of stealing the idea of Facebook and building the site himself. His defense: if they had invented Facebook, they would have invented Facebook. If the women could do harder jumps, they would. Are you seriously suggesting that the layback and spiral is what keeping Asada from landing her 3 axel? What evidence is there for this? Where is the quad from the not so flexible female skaters? Any woman who could bust out a 3 axel and a more complex 3/3 or even a quad, would do it. Again, see Tutkamysheva. If they could do it consistently enough to put into a competition, they would.
    That's a theory for which I have seen no proof. Sasha Cohen is no proof because I believe all her problems were purely psychological. Also, see Kirov and Bolshoi schools of ballet where flexibility and control/strength are combined beautifully.
    Figure skating is a sport where a beautiful line is important. Again, flexibility not only helps achieve the aesthetically pleasing line but also helps prevent injury. Consider that.

    Again, this is divorced from reality.


    That's nice but do they? Where are these women gymnasts who do rings and other traditionally men's apparati. Who is keeping them away from them? Don't tell me it's flexibility because male gymnasts are very flexible.

    But that's history. Try to compete against Chan without a quad. Not. Going. To Happen. Takahashi landed two quads in his last competition, one in the SP. Please lets get back to real world.
    And that's a hard thing? A shorter program? I don't understand what you are arguing at all. You don't have to buy my argument. I don't insist on it.

    Care to mention her achievements as a Novice? Who cares what happened then? She got slammed as a senior and relearned the technique, therefore the incentive is there. That's proof right there.
    Her "mule kick" is nowhere near that egregious as Zhang's was. You know what I really wish she got slammed for? Her poor posture. Murakami and Hanyu both.


    They are juniors, why are you applying senior standards to them again?
    I am FAR from convinced that having a nice layback or a spiral impairs you jumping ability. What about Arakawa and her Ina? That required extreme back flexibility. Kwan's spiral was close to 180 although not all the way, but a lot higher than a lot of women today and she jumped fine. This is all conjecture brought up to serve a very strange agenda. Why are you on the rampage against flexibility? It prevents injury and looks good. All skaters, male and female should try to achieve it.

    Again, try going against Chan et al without all the bells and whistles. Earth to kwanfan1818, please come back. I hope you are not coaching some young man, telling him he will be just fine without a set of complex 3/3s, 3 axel and a quad.

    Since we are on the subject of ballet, flexibility and jumps, have you seen Natalia Osipova? Hardly an inflexible individual and someone who could easily get into the layback or spiral position. Have you seen her jump? Do you know they call her Natalia airlines?

    Finally, Mayo clinic approves of flexibility:
    http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/stretching/HQ01447/NSECTIONGROUP=2
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2012
  10. seabm7

    seabm7 Active Member

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    Wow, you have a very long list of reasoning. Well, I do not know much on flexibility, but I think one cannot use Arakawa as a proof.

    I heard that two of her spine bones are shaped irregular, which allows the extreme flexibility. Her Ina Bauer is a unique case. That cannot be replicated or generalized to other skaters' situation.
     
  11. allezfred

    allezfred Mince Pie Depriving Admin Staff Member

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    Well now you know better. ;)
     
  12. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    I am sure many skaters can achieve that position if they want to, just look at Zhang's pearl spin--that's just crazy and awesome. IMO, Arakawa's Ina has to do with core strength as much as it does with flexibility. She not only has to achieve this position but hold it steady while she glides with her feet in sort of a 4th position--that's a feat of strength too. I would think she has abs of steel.
     
  13. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    New Q&A with Zahra Lari (June 27, 2013): http://www.sport360.com/other-sports/zahra-lari-uae’s-own-ice-princess

    Videos of her skating and being interviewed:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOVqh96PeQs
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQaFwaQb0Ns
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBqp0xcUIU8

    SPORTLAND TROPHY, Budapest, Hungary
    06-10. February 2013
    International Figure Skating Competition
    http://sportorszag.hu/index.php?page=competition&pw=9&lang=eng
    Lari (spelled Lary in the results) won the Interpretative C event and finished 16th in Junior Ladies, 14th in FS landing a few clean doubles through Lz: http://sportorszag.hu/downloads/trophy2013/JUNIORLADIES_FS_Scores.pdf
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2013
  14. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    Very cool, thanks Sylvia! :)
     
  15. Eislauffan

    Eislauffan Well-Known Member

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    Interesting, thank you. Her English is really good. In the article, the author (obviously having no knowledge of figure skating) states that Zahra Lari "is the process of becoming a member of the International Skating Union (ISU). To compete in the Olympics or other major events, one must be a member of this. Her application is pending approval".
    I wonder if he really means that she is trying to compete on the behalf of the ISU (as UAE is not an ISU member) or if UAE has applied for ISU membership.
     
  16. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    This is the most recent competition video I found (uploaded in May) of Zahra Lari - UAE Figure Skating Championship 2013: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq2AcPZIH6U
    She landed all the doubles besides flip and had a creditable 2A attempt.

    I was wondering that, too. I recall posting a link on this topic in a related thread earlier this year ("Skating in Dubai or not")... will go look for it. ETA the link: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/sho...Dubai-or-not&p=3910048&viewfull=1#post3910048
     
  17. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    I don't see this as a prop. It's a part of her costume, like someone wearing a flower or a bow in her hair. It's a lovely costume, based on a picture posted in this thread.
     
  18. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    She has good air awareness on her jumps. Hopefully someone can fix her spins, but there's definite potential there. Any chance she could go and train abroad for part of the year?
     
  19. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    What exciting new entry for the figure skating. Just came back from Dubai recently, it is one untapped part of the world where the world of figure skating can really seek new nourishment from. A world where tradition meet modernity; money, wealth, talent, a country who sought to have the bests of everything and have no problem paying for it. Potentially great for the the sport economically and culturally, as well maybe putting the issues of females in sports more forward looking in UAE.

    If she is even a moderate success, i see new skating shows in the future in new region. Lots of new rich untapped resources there? Thought it was cute she mentioned the film Ice Princess... there should be more movies or maybe a documentary made about figure skating. You just never know who else could be watching and may inspire them to take up the sport.
     
  20. allezfred

    allezfred Mince Pie Depriving Admin Staff Member

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  21. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    Since there is no ice skating presence in UAE, maybe Zahra is the federation. Does anyone know how you would go about creating a skate federation?
     
  22. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    Smart move, ISU. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

    Criteria are published in the ISU rules. ETA: http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-206227-223450-177140-0-file,00.pdf (Membership section starts on page 15)
     
  23. allezfred

    allezfred Mince Pie Depriving Admin Staff Member

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    Well, at least until the oil runs out in any case. :shuffle:

    Going to a figure skating event might be the only thing to entice me to go to the UAE.
     
  24. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Great news! Hopefully they can channel some of those petro-dollars into developing skating.

    What we need now is to get one of the Emirs' children or grandchildren really interested in skating so that they start spending ridiculous amounts of money holding events and such. :D
     
    Karen-W and (deleted member) like this.
  25. Nikeah

    Nikeah New Member

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  26. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    Last edited: Nov 27, 2013
  27. Tinami Amori

    Tinami Amori Well-Known Member

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    Des-entice! Check the UAE's Article 354 of the Federal Penal Code. ;)
     
  28. allezfred

    allezfred Mince Pie Depriving Admin Staff Member

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    Figure skating or possible arrest? It's a tough choice.
     
  29. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    One page of Google search results has her as Russian, Egyptian and now UAE - a well-traveled young lady.

    There are some Youtube clips of her spinning, such as this one.
     
  30. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    New article on Zahra Lari: http://www.thenational.ae/arts-cult...ure-skater-prepares-for-abu-dhabi-performance
    Amira ABDUL MOATI (UAE) finished 17th (62.94) in Junior Ladies at Denkova-Staviski Cup:
    http://clubdenkovastaviski.com/DSCup_2013_ISU/CAT004RS.HTM